What was before the big bang?

[Forkbender]

i agree with that definition, and it does not contradict what i said, if you use induction and follow it through, the probability of any event occuring is only one or zero, in other words there is no such thing as 'probability' as it is commonly understood, probability is a myth

"God does not play dice" - Einstein

:roll:

where on the wikipedia page does it say that it doesn't exist? (I borrowed that argument from you in the HPPD-thread :wink You agreed with that definition, didn't you?

You are confusing categories again.

Nice quote from wiki:

A revolutionary discovery of 20th century physics was the random character of all physical processes that occur at sub-atomic scales and are governed by the laws of quantum mechanics. The wave function itself evolves deterministically as long as no observation is made, but, according to the prevailing Copenhagen interpretation, the randomness caused by the wave function collapsing when an observation is made, is fundamental. This means that probability theory is required to describe nature. Others never came to terms with the loss of determinism. Albert Einstein famously remarked in a letter to Max Born: Jedenfalls bin ich überzeugt, daß der Alte nicht würfelt. (I am convinced that God does not play dice). Although alternative viewpoints exist, such as that of quantum decoherence being the cause of an apparent random collapse, at present there is a firm consensus among the physicists that probability theory is necessary to describe quantum phenomena.

 

[GOD]

Mad-max hasnt got a clue what hes talking about . Hes useing the same slimey and childish strategy here as in the HPPD thread . Deny everything , use selective "truthes" , use personal definitions and bend them , sometimes useing the same twisted definitions to back up what he says and then later in exactly the oposite way . He wont use clear definitions , draw clear lines and stick to one point . Every time someone pins him down he either just keeps talking untill he thinks that people have forgotten that hes talking crap , or he changes the subject , or he denys he has said what he said just like zest and caduceus .

Thats my point about him talking like that in prison , a court or at his psychiatrists . He wouldnt get away with it . Theres no point in trying to rationalise with him as hes already talked about and admited his mental problems .

 

[maxfreakout]

:roll:

where on the wikipedia page does it say that it doesn't exist? (I borrowed that argument from you in the HPPD-thread :wink You agreed with that definition, didn't you?

it doesnt say it doesnt exist, i wasnt quoting from wiki

to say that it 'doesnt exist' is a bit oversimplistic, that is why i clarified that statement by saying 'as it is commonly understood' - the wiki page perfectly exemplifies the common understanding of the idea of probability

in other words the common conception of probability is a misconception, there ARE probabilities of events occuring, but ONLY one or zero, nothing in between, any event either will or will not occur, there is nothing 'in between' an event's occuring or not occuring, whereas probability theory says the opposite

for example it is commonly held that a tossed coin has a '50% chance' of turning up heads, this is nonsense, it has either a ONE or a ZERO chance of being heads, depending on what it ACTUALLY turns out to be

The Einstein quote captures this idea perfectly, God does not play dice, Einstein was a determinist, and so am I

 

[maxfreakout]

Thats my point about him talking like that in prison , a court or at his psychiatrists . He wouldnt get away with it . Theres no point in trying to rationalise with him as hes already talked about and admited his mental problems .

Sanity is a myth, we are ALL insane and (most of us are) pretending that we arent, existence is completely absurd


if you try telling a psychiatrist that you believe you are God, you will be injected with all kinds of chemicals to stop you believing that, it is a 'delusion' according to medical psychiatry, and mental hospitals are full of people who think that they are God/Jesus/Buddha or whatever

 

[GOD]

Thanks for proveing what i said in my last post .

 

[Forkbender]

in other words the common conception of probability is a misconception, there ARE probabilities of events occuring, but ONLY one or zero, nothing in between, any event either will or will not occur, there is nothing 'in between' an event's occuring or not occuring, whereas probability theory says the opposite

Probability theory doesn't say there is something between occuring and not occuring, that is a blatant lie. Probability theory determines the chances of something occuring from what we can know about something. So if you cast a die, the chance of throwing a six is about 16,667 %, while the chance of throwing not a six is about 83,333 %. There are only two options here: something occuring or not occuring, whereas you claim that probability theory says there is something in between.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism#Arguments_against_determinism

 

[maxfreakout]

Thanks for proveing what i said in my last post .

'proof' is a very problematic concept, as it involves the idea of 'certainty', and i think that arguably NOTHING is certain, anything could be the case

 

[Forkbender]

^which means you could be wrong. Your deterministic worldview is based on certainty and causality, you know that, right?

 

[maxfreakout]

Probability theory doesn't say there is something between occuring and not occuring, that is a blatant lie. Probability theory determines the chances of something occuring from what we can know about something. So if you cast a die, the chance of throwing a six is about 16,667 %, while the chance of throwing not a six is about 83,333 %. There are only two options here: something occuring or not occuring, whereas you claim that probability theory says there is something in between.

16,667 % is between 0% and 100%, so if you say that there is a 16,667 % of a dice throw being a 6, you are saying that the chance of it being a 6 is between one and zero, and i am saying this is false

 

[Forkbender]

prove it.

 

[maxfreakout]

^which means you could be wrong. Your deterministic worldview is based on certainty and causality, you know that, right?

a deterministic worldview eliminates causality entirely, there is no 'causation' between events, all events are eternally determined to occur

i could *certainly* be wrong, i dont base anything on certainty, because i dont think there is any such thing as certainty

 

[maxfreakout]

prove it.

0 < 16.6666 < 100

'prove' = 'prove to be certaintly true'

i have already said, there is no certainty, no proof, and therefore NO TRUTH

NOTHING IS TRUE

 

[GOD]

The guy is denying the whole of science , human knowledge and experience , when he gets pinned down he just says prove it and denys that proof is proof . Remember he claimed , falsly , to have HPPD useing the suposed mental condition diagnosis as proof . Then when it was explained to him that a mental dissorder is a mental illness he argued that HPPD isnt a dissorder !!!!! = Hes denying the suposed medical condition , the diagnosis and the medical definition . = Mad-max knows better than medicine and science .

All hes doing is living in a vain , egoistic fantasy world where he cant admit when hes wrong and just like the confused child that he is he just keeps chanting "Oh no it isnt" .

Thank you for derailing your own arguments max .

 

[Forkbender]

a deterministic worldview eliminates causality entirely, there is no 'causation' between events, all events are eternally determined to occur

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism:

Determinism is the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition and behavior, decision and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences.

NOTHING IS TRUE

Ha!

Then why are you so attached to being right? If truth doesn't exist and everything is a lie, why do you talk? Liar! Liar! Pants on fire!

 

[maxfreakout]

Determinism is the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition and behavior, decision and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences.

^ this is a description of 'causal determinism'. I am not talking about causal determinism, i am talking instead about 4-dimensional BLOCK UNIVERSE determinism (Rudy Rucker's model), which entirely eliminates causality

NOTHING IS TRUE

Ha!

Then why are you so attached to being right? If truth doesn't exist and everything is a lie, why do you talk? Liar! Liar! Pants on fire!

to be 'right' about something is the same as being 'certain' about something. And i have already said (and i think you agreed with me but correct me if you didn't) that there is no certainty



why do i talk? Because it's fun perhaps? I dont really know why i talk, maybe i don't talk

 

[Forkbender]

I will stop talking, because you deny any common ground. Sweet dreams, max.

 

[maxfreakout]

The guy is denying the whole of science , human knowledge and experience

the only thing i am denying is TRUTH, i am certainly not denying experience

when he gets pinned down he just says prove it

i never asked anyone to prove anything

Remember he claimed , falsly , to have HPPD useing the suposed mental condition diagnosis as proof

No i used my own experience to indicate that i had HPPD. Just like many psychonauts, i experienced persisting visual patterning after using drugs. That means i had HPPD, even though the term 'HPPD' is highly problematic, i wasnt ever talking about the term itself, i was talking about the experience/condition that the term 'HPPD' refers to

Then when it was explained to him that a mental dissorder is a mental illness he argued that HPPD isnt a dissorder !!!!!

'mental disorder' and 'mental illness' are trivially synonymous. HPPD can be a disorder, to the extent that it disrupts a person's life, but it isnt necessarily a disorder.

= Hes denying the suposed medical condition , the diagnosis and the medical definition

no i am only denying the accuracy of the term 'HPPD' to describe the condition that it refers to, and several posters agreed with me, that it is not (necessarily) a 'disorder'.

 

[GOD]

"there is no certainty "

Then shut the fuck up and stop pretending everyone else is wrong and your right .

"why do i talk? Because it's fun perhaps? I dont really know why i talk,"

Causing trouble . Wanking your ego and not being able to admit when your wrong .

", i experienced persisting visual patterning after using drugs."

Thats what i`ve been saying all the time .

"That means i had HPPD"

No . It means you did a false self diagnosis .

" even though the term 'HPPD' is highly problematic, i wasnt ever talking about the term itself, i was talking about the experience/condition that the term 'HPPD' refers to"

Either you have it or you dont . You claimed that you have it . If i were you i`d take care when you turn round fast that you dont slip on your own slime trail .

"HPPD can be a disorder, to the extent that it disrupts a person's life, but it isnt necessarily a disorder. "

Dumb fuck . If it wasnt considered to be a dissorder it wouldnt be called or classifyed as a dissorder .

"no i am only denying the accuracy of the term 'HPPD' to describe the condition that it refers to, and several posters agreed with me, that it is not (necessarily) a 'disorder'."

Either you have it or you dont . All your doing now is denying your own arguments and agreeing whith what i`ve been saying all the time = that some people have symptoms . But that bunching those symptoms and pretending that they come from hallucinogens is more than fucking stupid . They exist in people who have never had hallucinogens and are well defined and explained .

Carry on max , keep proveing what i have said , keep destroying your own arguments and false self diagnosis and any credibility that you might have had in life .

 

[maxfreakout]

Then shut the fuck up and stop pretending everyone else is wrong and your right .

to be 'right' about something is the same as being 'certain' about something. And i have already said that there is no such thing as certainty

"That means i had HPPD"

No . It means you did a false self diagnosis .

When you experience persisting visual effects after a trip ends, that is called 'HPPD'. I didnt diagnose myself as having HPPD, instead I recognised that i was experiencing persisting visual effects after a trip. It is important to make a distinction between the psychiatric classification, and the actual phenomenon itself that the classification refers to

Either you have it or you dont . You claimed that you have it .

What i had, was persisting visual effects after using drugs

If it wasnt considered to be a dissorder it wouldnt be called or classifyed as a dissorder .

I have pointed out the problematic, misleading nature of the psychiatric diagnosis. It is debatable whether or not it can be a disorder, but regardless of what it is named, the underlying condition that the name refers to, is the condition of experiencing persisting visual effects after using drugs

Either you have it or you dont . All your doing now is denying your own arguments and agreeing whith what i`ve been saying all the time = that some people have symptoms .

a substantial proportion of psychonauts will at some point experience persisting visual effects. The psychiatric c;lassification for this condition is 'HPPD'

But that bunching those symptoms and pretending that they come from hallucinogens is more than fucking stupid . They exist in people who have never had hallucinogens and are well defined and explained .

I am not talking about the prescence of the symptoms in people who have never used drugs, i am only referring to the condition where people experience visual effects in conjunction with using drugs, that is labelled 'HPPD'. It is debatable whether or not it "comes from hallucinogens", but there is a direct conjunction betwen the use of drugs, and the condition. In most cases the condition begins immediately after a trip has ended

 

[restin]

*sigh* I actually enjoyed the first pages...