What was before the big bang?

[maxfreakout]

'loosened cognitive association binding' defines/characterizes the mystical state.

I don't understand what you mean by that. Can you explain?

I explained the difference between tight and loose association binding (with reference to visual perception) in this post:
http://www.psychonaut.com/index.php?opt ... =en#153648


So if you can quote that post, and explain which parts of it you don't understand, then i can try and further clarify it

Essentially, it is a distinction between 2 fundamentally different states of cognitive processing. All of life can be divided into these 2 states

 

[maxfreakout]

Max, I think we have a different view on what a religious experience is...

Right, what exactly is your definition of a 'religious experience'?

(and btw i think it is more appropriate to specify 'intense' religious experience)

- by far the most ergonomic way to have religious experience, is to take entheogens

Probably. But what are the other ways?

Some (very small minority) of people experience spontaneous religious states without having to do anything/ingest any chemicals

And there are a large number of alternative, drug-free techniques which are claimed to induce religious states. For example meditating, yoga, fasting, praying, drumming, sweat lodges, vision quests, and many others. Arguably, none of these alternatives (to drugs) are anywhere near as ergonomic, and historically validated, as ingesting entheogens in a shamanic setting

That isn't a clear conclusion,
"what is religious experience"
"a higher observation"
"how can a higher observation be obtained?"
"by religious experience"

a religious experience is an experience of loosened cognitive association binding. It has the longterm effect of transforming the individual's mental worldmodel from the egoic mode (characterised by the belief "I AM myself"), to the transcendent mode (characterised by the vague belief "I am not myself, i am the eternal consciousness beyond myself, I am God/Jesus/Buddha/the eternally unchanging centre of the universe")

This is the meaning of the 'life-changing experience' that so many people report during psychedelic trips, it is the religious transformation of the individual, the revelation to the individual of the profound magical realm of experience that lies beyond ordinary life. All religious stories and myth (because religious stories ARE myths) consists of allegorical descriptions of this experience.

But I know that it is very difficult/impossible to form it is words and base it on logic.

I used to think that it was impossible, but i have changed my view and i now think (thanks to www.egodeath.com) that the phenomenology of religious transformation can be described fairly straightforwardly

 

[restin]

Right, what exactly is your definition of a 'religious experience'?

As soon as God is defined it loses its divinity. :wink:

But probably something like

grasping the essence.

What is the essence?

I don't know.

And there are a large number of alternative, drug-free techniques which are claimed to induce religious states. For example meditating, yoga, fasting, praying, drumming, sweat lodges, vision quests, and many others. Arguably, none of these alternatives (to drugs) are anywhere near as ergonomic, and historically validated, as ingesting entheogens in a shamanic setting

IMHO you stress the religious experience too much on psychedelics.

What do you think of people as Buddha, Jesus, Moses, ...?

 

[Forkbender]

I explained the difference between tight and loose association binding (with reference to visual perception) in this post:
http://www.psychonaut.com/index.php?opt ... =en#153648

So if you can quote that post, and explain which parts of it you don't understand, then i can try and further clarify it

I understood that, but I don't understand how the loose association binding is connected to a mystical state. Why is this the case? In my experience, the mystical state doesn't imply all of this, so I'd like to see your point of view on this.

Essentially, it is a distinction between 2 fundamentally different states of cognitive processing. All of life can be divided into these 2 states

Can you list (some examples of) the distinctive qualities of these 2 classes? And why are these the only two options? What about hypnosis? What about non-dreaming sleep phases? What about coma?

 

[GOD]

Wow mad-max , you actualy wrote one post that i agree with . But this is total hippy shit :-

"by far the most ergonomic way to have a religious experience, is to take entheogens" - "The meaning of religion, is the state of 'loosened' cognition triggered by entheogens, which transforms the individual's mental worldmodel" - "Observing life/nature while in the ordinary state can never give you religious insight" .

All your saying is what you believe and / or the experiences you have had are universal human facts , again . Maybe you needed hallucinogens because you have a thick shell . Other people dont .

Stop talking , stop thinking and experience .

 

[maxfreakout]

Right, what exactly is your definition of a 'religious experience'?

As soon as God is defined it loses its divinity. :wink:

I agree, 'God' is just a throwaway symbol, like 'Allah' or 'Ganesh' or whatever

BUT i am not talking about defining 'God', im talking about defining what it means to have a 'religious experience', specifically, what is the meaning of the difference between a religious experience and a non-religious experience. I think that this definition can be given fairly precisely, using the approach of cognitive phenomenology

But probably something like

grasping the essence.

What is the essence?

Right, i am saying that the 'essence' of a religious experience, is loosening of cognitive associations

IMHO you stress the religious experience too much on psychedelics.

im not sure what you mean by this, i think it is undeniably evident that psychedelics are the most ergonomic way to have a religious experience. And religious experience is an absolutely necessary component in the process of religious expansion of consciousness

What do you think of people as Buddha, Jesus, Moses, ...?

I think that none of them really existed (in the 'flesh and blood' sense of 'existing')

they are purely mythic characters, and all the stories about them, are mythic-allegorical descriptions of religious experience

In the abscence of rigorous, phenomenological language to describe religious experience (because phenomenology is a modern invention) the ancients resorted to mythic symbolism to describe the experiences, and so Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Janaka, Mohammed etc etc etc came into existence in the mythic realm

 

[restin]

Right, i am saying that the 'essence' of a religious experience, is loosening of cognitive associations

I was rather talking about the Essence, the essence of the universe/life.

im not sure what you mean by this, i think it is undeniably evident that psychedelics are the most ergonomic way to have a religious experience. And religious experience is an absolutely necessary component in the process of religious expansion of consciousness

Ergonomic does not mean best. Instant Soup....Instant experience does not mean true religious experience. The fastest way to obtain wisdom is not the best.

I think that none of them really existed (in the 'flesh and blood' sense of 'existing')

they are purely mythic characters, and all the stories about them, are mythic-allegorical descriptions of religious experience

still, their experience was not based on drugs.

PS: we need not agree. A forum is a share of knowledge and opinion and not a place where one needs to find unified results.

 

[maxfreakout]

oops double post....

 

[maxfreakout]

I understood that, but I don't understand how the loose association binding is connected to a mystical state. Why is this the case?

Loose association binding IS the mystical state. It is a particular way of defining the difference between the mystical state and the non-mystical state (loose/tight cognitive associations). Because when associations are loosened (ie on LSD/mushrooms), a deeper level of reality is revealed. This level of reality transcends ordinary-state based concepts such as enduring personal identity, enduring identity of physical objects, the reality of flowing time etc etc. This range of phenomena revealed in the dissociative (ie loose association) state are typical 'religious/mystical' phenomena. They prompt a drastic, profound transformation in the individual's understanding of his self-identity and his relation to the world, which commonly involves such concepts as God, awe, heaven, hell, transcendence, divinity etc

Can you list (some examples of) the distinctive qualities of these 2 classes?

Most importantly, in the ordinary state, things seem to be 'solid', with an identity that endures across time. In the altered state otoh, the sense of solidity starts to dissolve, the world suddenly takes on a more wavy, unrealistic, unconvincing, 'cartoonlike' quality which is very much unlike the ordinary state. This prompts the mind to start thinking about the philosophical implications of the existence of the altered state of consciousness, which ultimatelly leads to ego death, and religious transformation/metaphysical enlightenment of the individual's mental worldmodel

And why are these the only two options? What about hypnosis? What about non-dreaming sleep phases? What about coma?

Sorry you are absolutely right, i was wrong to suggest these are the only 2 possible states of consciousness. But i do think that the essence of religious transformation involves the implications of the mystical state being intellectually integrated into the ordinary state, quite apart from the existence of the other states that you mention. But this could be wrong, perhaps these further states do play a role

There was an interesting comment Terence Mckenna made, that without drugs you have (simplistically speaking) 2 states of consciousness, awake and asleep. When you only have 2 states, you can only draw a line, and therefore are limited to a 'flat', one-dimensional perspective on life. Then with drugs a third state is introduced, and now with this third state you can draw a triangle, so your awareness is raised into the next dimension up, you can now triangulate on reality, and therefore gain a higher dimensional perspective on reality/life/existence

 

[maxfreakout]

Maybe you needed hallucinogens because you have a thick shell . Other people dont .

yes i said earlier, that some people (a small minority) dont need to do anything, and they just experience fragmenting associations spontaneously. Schizophrenics are the obvious, typical example of this kind of person.

But this is a question of statistics, *most people* are unable to enter mystical/religious states without some assistance, and there are a number of techniques, including drugs, which cause entry into these states. And when all these techniques are considered, entheogens (administered in the appropriate setting) are by far the most ergonomic

 

[st.bot.32]

Then with drugs a third state is introduced, and now with this third state you can draw a triangle, so your awareness is raised into the next dimension up, you can now triangulate on reality, and therefore gain a higher dimensional perspective on reality/life/existence

I agree. I didn't do drugs until quite later in life, but still experimented a lot with threshold wakeness, hypnagogia, trance induced through minimalist music,etcetc, and yes, my feeling the presence of god religious experiences when i was an x-tian

The difference with drugs is that you can't just stand up and blink and wake up and its over. You can get up, interact with your environment in a lot of different ways that you can't do through the more "natural" routes. it opens up new opportunities for exploration to those who are paying attention

and yes, by giving you another perspective, it just makes you more aware and sensitive to changes in consciousness in general in ways you weren't before. at least it did for me.

 

[maxfreakout]

I was rather talking about the Essence, the essence of the universe/life.

right well i dont know about an 'essence', maybe there isnt one? But i think religious experience/intense tripping is the 'pinnacle' of conscious experience

Ergonomic does not mean best. Instant Soup....Instant experience does not mean true religious experience. The fastest way to obtain wisdom is not the best.

i didnt say 'best', that is a value term, and i dont think values are involved. A religious experience is a religious experience, no matter how it was caused, there are no 'better' or 'worse' religious experiences (in the sense i think you mean)

But one important point, is that even if such an experience were caused without drugs, there are still drugs involved, since endogenous brain chemistry is psychedelic anyway, and DMT is produced in the brain, so very likely it has something to do with spontaneous/non-drug induced experiences anyway.

PS: we need not agree. A forum is a share of knowledge and opinion and not a place where one needs to find unified results.

right absolutely. I am just explaining and defending the way i understand my own experiences. I think there is a good argument to be made in favour of my own views, but that doesnt mean anyone else has to agree.

 

[Ebola_Sigma]

Max , do you exist ? Yes or no . ( Yes ) .

Can you explain your existance with logic ? Yes or no ? ( No ) .

Does that stop you existing ? Yes or no ? ( No ) .

Does that mean that your existance is a theory ? Yes or no ? ( No ) .

If there is no logical reason / proof to explain your existance , just as you claim that there is no logical reason / proof to back up physics and the big bang so asking questions and makeing theorys is a waste of time why are you studying ?

I hope i put that simply enough that you understand .

That is how I've been trying to word it all. GG. lol

Absolutely, there is no "proof" of anything, as the very nature of perception of the universe, subjective reality, defies the very definition of "proof".

GOD, is that what you meant?

I'm hoping that someday soon - I know it'll be soon - we'll all learn that there is no limit to human potential, once we all reach that level of understanding. The subjective universe is unspeakably infinite, deus ex hominis.

 

[IJesusChrist]

The limit to human beings is in that which surrounds us, or our own species.

The limits to human beings isn't being human...