Danger of Islam!

[Caduceus Mercurius]

How did you know they were Islamic?

Islam isn't a race. We knew they were Islamic because that's what they told us when we visited them. Like I said, they were very friendly to us. I knew Saïd because he had been a classmate.

 

[GOD]

"Islam isn't a race"

Please explain why being anti semitic is considered rasism .

 

[Meduzz]

Well OK, maybe it's not racism, but it's still negative discrimination!

 

[restin]

Islam isn't a race.

If you say that in the world there are races, then you are already using nazi vocabulary. Races as such are an old invention, that were used to differ e.g. between slave and master "black and white", also used in roman tradition, where the Romans were "higher" than the others. Races were also used in colonialization to excuse rape and exploitation of other cultures. Hitler then perfectionized this term. There are no races. Skin differences are transfered through pigments and other DNA-structures. Please don't use this word any more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism: "Many use the term "racism" to refer to more general phenomena, such as xenophobia and ethnocentrism, although scholars attempt to clearly distinguish those phenomena from racism as an ideology."

As you see, racism is not connected to "races", that as such don't exist. Xenophobia = fear of strange and can therefore be applied to religions, nations, skin colour, sexual alignment etc.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Please explain why being anti semitic is considered rasism .

Because it refers to the race of semites: "The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern people originating in southwestern Asia, including Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, Arabs, and Ethiopian Semites."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

By the way, I did a Google search for the phrase "islam both sides of the story", and found a very interesting text, a book actually, on the early history of Islam, from both the sunni and shia viewpoints: http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/1.htm I'm not trying to make any point by posting that here. I just think it's an interesting text. It discusses the geography of Arabia, the state of affairs in Arabia before Mohamed, what happened after he died etc.

 

[Forkbender]

Because it refers to the race of semites: "The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern people originating in southwestern Asia, including Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, Arabs, and Ethiopian Semites."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

If you say that in the world there are races, then you are already using nazi vocabulary

Why didn't you write that in a recent danger of rasists! thread?

Xenophobia = fear of strange and can therefore be applied to religions, nations, skin colour, sexual alignment etc.

So use that word to describe our transgressions, rather than racist or nazi.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

@ Forkbender: exactly, anti-semitism would include being anti-arabic, which we are not. We're discussing the Quran, not any 'race' or collection of tribes:

By the nineteenth century, the term Semitic was confined to the ethnic groups who have historically spoken Semitic languages. These peoples were often considered to be a distinct race. However, some anti-Semitic racial theorists of the time argued that the Semitic peoples arose from the blurring of distinctions between previously separate races. This supposed process was referred to as Semiticization by the race-theorist Arthur de Gobineau.

I do agree zezt (and myself) should try to avoid, as much as possible, statements like "all muslims".

 

[Meduzz]

I do agree zezt (and myself) should try to avoid, as much as possible, statements like "all muslims".

Everyone should. As I said before everyone generalises.

 

[restin]

So use that word to describe our transgressions, rather than racist or nazi.

Why? As I said, racism doesn't imply the word "race" but xenophobia. Therefore, anti-islamism is also racism.

 

[Forkbender]

We're discussing the Quran, not any 'race' or collection of tribes

I understand, but can you criticize a book an sich without criticizing the meaning people attach to it and thereby criticizing the people who attach meaning to it? The Quran has violence in it, but so has any book by Karen Slaughter (a thriller/horror writer). You cannot deny the fact that people find the Quran an important and identityforming book. So your criticism, although aimed at something you consider separate (i.e. the book), is received/perceived as if it is aimed directly at muslims.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Restin, by your definition anti-christianity would also be racism. That would make many of us here racists, and the forum littered with numerous racist statements about the Dutch politicians imposing their Christian morals on us. I thought a little about xenophobia, and in this regard too I believe you can't accuse the participants of this forum of that. Zezt isn't by nature xenophobic and neither am I, why else would both of us have adopted an Indian lifestyle for a while? Psychonauts love the weird and unfamiliar, they're not xenophobic.

 

[restin]

no it wouldn't, as you are christians yourself and you are no strangers to this culture. If the Imam started talking bad about Christianity, then, yes, this would be racism as well. From what I read you seem to have some kind of trauma from several clashes of yourself with the islamic culture - you were threatened and you had personal experience of a moslem hitting a woman. I didn't call you a nazi or racist but your statements, which seemed to me as being such. I already posted why I thought so. You also try to re-define the discussion by narrowing the "valid" arguments. On one hand you try to critisize the book, for which I refer to Forks post above and on the other hand you critisize the muslem that followes stricktly by the book and on the other hand the one that interprets it in a very specific way, namely the way of war and aggression. Although Aya is using metaphors to express himself, he is not the only one who reads the Koran like that. I am more familiar with the bible and there it seems to be absolutely clear, that there are impressive metaphores drawn - and this is similar in the Koran. From your definition, the only one that is talked about here is the radical muslem. Still, I don't see how you then come to the conclusion that the islamic culture is trying to devour our.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

The Quran has violence in it, but so has any book by Karen Slaughter (a thriller/horror writer).

But not direct instructions to be violent and authoritarian in the name of God.

You cannot deny the fact that people find the Quran an important and identityforming book. So your criticism, although aimed at something you consider separate (i.e. the book), is received/perceived as if it is aimed directly at muslims.

True, the same happens when we point out the flaws of the Bible. But the criticism isn't purposefully or primarily aimed at people. There is a significant difference there.

 

[Forkbender]

True, the same happens when we point out the flaws of the Bible. But the criticism isn't purposefully or primarily aimed at people. There is a significant difference there.

For you there is, but for a muslim there isn't, that's precisely the problem of the criticism. Even if you don't mean to criticize people, people feel criticized. Even people who are peaceloving muslims.

I think your criticism should be aimed at people who take these things litteraly.

But not direct instructions to be violent and authoritarian in the name of God.

And also no instructions to not interfere with other people's beliefs (as in the Quran).

 

[GOD]

"But the criticism isn't purposefully or primarily aimed at people."

Arent moslems people . Please read the thread again and see how moslems in general have been critisized .

This is getting nowhere and i dont see any point in talking about it if people just keep changeing the subject and denying that lots of what has been said is discriminatory / racist , or denying that they have said what they have said .

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

no it wouldn't, as you are christians yourself

Dude, I am NOT a christian!! None of us here is a christian, unless someone goes to church every Sunday and prays every night before going to sleep. Details may vary, but to be religious, there must be a daily ritual and a more or less weekly congregation. If you think I'm a christian, no wonder you're feeling weird when I'm talking about muslims. Again: an Arab is NOT by definition a muslim (or vice versa), at least not in my book.

If the Imam started talking bad about Christianity, then, yes, this would be racism as well.

If the Imam would point out that the Bible was put together and heavily edited at the council of Nicea, that would NOT be racism.

From what I read you seem to have some kind of trauma from several clashes of yourself with the islamic culture - you were threatened and you had personal experience of a moslem hitting a woman.

LOL, now you've got what you all wanted: a reason to think I'm just biased. You can now whisk aside my arguments, ignore the quotes I posted etc.

On one hand you try to critisize the book, for which I refer to Forks post above

I criticize the Quran, the Puranas, the Bhagavad-gita and the Bible.

From your definition, the only one that is talked about here is the radical muslem.

No, I'm just talking about the Quran and Islam, which are being spread by radical and moderate muslims alike.

Still, I don't see how you then come to the conclusion that the islamic culture is trying to devour our.

That wasn't my conclusion, I would never have used the word 'devour'.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Arent moslems people . Please read the thread again and see how moslems in general have been critisized .

Read the sentence again: not primarily aimed at people. You, however, are not discussing Islam or the Quran at all. All your posts are primarily aimed at people whom you label racist armchair philosophers. That's why your posts do not contribute to this discussion at all, whereas those of Forkbender, restin, Ahua and even zezt do.

 

[GOD]

You seem to me to think you can just keep on talking crap round and round in circles and that way you can get away from the rasist things you have said .

You dont answer questions , change the subject and ignore things you have said so i dont see any sense in talking to you any more .



Bye bye , have fun chasing your own tail .

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

You seem to me to think you can just keep on talking crap round and round in circles and that way you can get away from the rasist things you have said .

There you go again.

You dont answer questions , change the subject and ignore things you have said so i dont see any sense in talking to you any more .

I've answered LOTS of questions in this thread, including yours about what I meant with 'it'.

I ignored the following question of yours, because it wasn't relevant to the discussion, at least not unless you and all other participants of this discussion answer those questions as well. If I were to answer those questions, the discussion would immediately gravitate towards my personal life.

Please tell us to wich countrys you have been , where in them and for how long . Or are you just an armchair philosipher with no real experience of the life and the world ?