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Danger of Islam!

  • Auteur de la discussion Auteur de la discussion zezt
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Forkbender a dit:
zezt, what do you propose then? IF there is such a problem, what should we do? What is the way we should deal with it?

JJJ a dit:
And maybe first: what exactly is the problem? What precisely is it that we should fear?

The danger of Islam is that it is very oppressive. As We;ve seen, artists, politicans, cartoonists, authors, etc who try and criticize Islam can be severely threatened, and end up pay with their lives. So there is great fear from many to not say anything against Islam, and Shariah Law. Nor to explore the Islamic myth in creative and challenging ways.
This is different with the other major religions, because since the Enlightenment, there has been the modernization of culture that allowed people to question religious oppression, and escape it. Because as we know, Medieval Christianity was also very oppressive. YET still Islam seems stuck in that Medieval time zone, and it is extremely oppressive for people living in Islamic countries that use Shariah Law, and there is now an influx of Muslims coming into the Western liberal democratic systems demanding and getting Shariah law introduced here. And threatening , harming, and murdering those who are seen as a threat to their belief.
This is a great worry, at the moment maybe more so for people who had tried to escape from all that coming to the West, but also for people trapped in the religious-political matrix. Women, gays, people that want to leave the belief system. But there exists a climate of fear that one better not challenge the Islamic belief 'or else'.

I have also presented clues that in other places there is this 'tipping point' when Muslims reach a certain percentage of the population there is the call from the more extremist elements to take over with its Shariah Law.

It is very serious why we should compare Islam with Nazism, because as Nazis came to power, it just took a small group of extremists at first, and many people asleep and then we have full-on oppression with intimidation, murder if you speak out against. So NOW is time, before it could get too late. it already is for some,

What should we do? I think first you have to see it. And then you want to speak out against it best way you can.
As I see it, from reactions I get from doing so, there is reluctance to mainly because it seems that Muslims are THE scapegoat of present times. There is the whole question of who did 9/11---as you know the Official Conspiracy Theory has many holes in it, etc. But that event was used to invade Iraq, and do genocide, also Afghanistan, and there is Israel and Palestine, and the recent Gaza. So maybe people take side with 'underdog' and in doing so there is ALSO a kind of manipulation going on whilst Islamic groups use this to get Shariah Law accepted, and make sure that ANY critique of Islam is not 'politically correct' and 'hate speech'. This is precisely what the Jews have been accused of doing with their 'anti-semiticism' accusation.

We here I think are wanting liberation, and a free culture, and world. We all hate the fact that psychedelic mushrooms have been banned by the 'Christians'. That we can all agree with. But the oppressive Shariah Law we have had some conflict about.
But I can clearly say that I do not want it. I dont want it here, and I also dont want it for anyone in the world. I am gay, and if I see my gay brothers, and sisters being persecuted anywhere in the world, I HATE it and want it stopped.
I do not want women abused, or children abused, or 'criminals' having amputations, or females having their sexual enjoyment destroyed which happens with 'female circumcision'. That is all barbaric, and I add my voice of protest to get it stopped.

The MORE people that do the better. But if we get taken in by phony liberalism and its politically correct tactics then that ISN'T speaking out

My personal theory of, not just the oppression of Islaic culture, but in general--oppressive forces all round is the suppression of psychedelic healing!
That is THE Medicine that could deeply resolve abusive belief systems, because when used intelligently it dissolves rigid ingrained patterns that are inculcated in us via religious dogma, and general cultural conditioning.

But in order to explore the potential of that, we very much do not want a return to the Medieval times!
 
CaduceusMercurius a dit:
I tend to think that people take their prejudices directly from their parents, family and friends,
Yes, indeed, but when parents, family and friends read the book every day, its role can not be ignored I think.

But then the argument gets pushed back one generation, they would certainly not believe the book if it wasn´t in sync with what they were taught as a child, and so on ad infinitum (well actually ad when the book was written).

The book is more an effect, a statement of a tradition than the cause of people doing stupid things.

That´s what the real enemy is. People not thinking and just going with what they were taught was ´right´ and ´just´. You can blame a book for that, but that really doesn´t help solve the problem.
 
Nice post zezt.

Forkbender a dit:
But then the argument gets pushed back one generation, they would certainly not believe the book if it wasn´t in sync with what they were taught as a child, and so on ad infinitum (well actually ad when the book was written).
I'm also not arguing that the book originated anything, except perhaps in those who got converted (which involves dealing with lots of behaviors and beliefs one initially isn't in sync with).

The book is more an effect, a statement of a tradition than the cause of people doing stupid things.
I said it was a snapshot, but one that has an impact on the future if made part of a religious tradition.

That´s what the real enemy is. People not thinking and just going with what they were taught was ´right´ and ´just´.
Would you be willing to consider that there are more than just one real enemy? That what you say is correct, but that under the current circumstances Islamic texts have become a source of human suffering and prejudice in their own right?

You can blame a book for that, but that really doesn´t help solve the problem.
I know. I suggested some ways to help solve the problem at the bottom of the previous page.
 
"The danger of Islam is that it is very oppressive."

Stop telling lies and stop stiring shit . You are spreading hatred and predjustice .
 
The next ordinary Moslim has practised both ego death and Islam very extensively and intense. He made a choice, but nothing is better or worse, he choosed himself. Choice = freedom. Who disagrees? Anyway...

DOSE : 6 hits oral LSD (blotter / tab)
6.5 g oral Mushrooms (dried)

BODY WEIGHT : 75 kg


This report is not an ordinary report, but a story about my life, what LSD and mushrooms did to me, and how they affected me and my life. Hope you'll enjoy.

Losing My Religion
I was born in the Middle East in a very religious family. I have followed Islam since I was a little kid, but suddenly I decided to quit the religion back when I was 17, even though it was a very big part of my life. I can’t really put words on what happened in my mind, I just felt myself as a slave for a God whose existence has never been proven to anyone.

My mother hired four imams (Muslim priests) just to make me change my mind and reconvert to Islam. She was afraid that I would make a big mess in my life and then regret it. That’s a very typical thought for a Muslim - for a Muslim there is no other reality than the reality which Islam gives you when you are being raised with the religion. Once you quit the religion your life will be complete nonsense, both in your own head and in the eyes of others.

My mother is a very religious woman and has a very personal relationship to Islam; therefore she just can’t understand my thoughts because she is isolated from the world’s reality by the reality of Islam. I still respect the religion even though I decided to quit it and denied all of its allegations and theories on God’s words and the human existence.

When I decided to quit the religion I realized that religion is an important thing in people’s lives. A religion is something that gives people hope and meaning. Your life won’t be meaningless any longer when you have joined a religion. It gives you answers on what is going to happen to you once you die, and at the same time it has a law that tells you how to act in the world if you want to be a part of heaven. It makes sense to many people, but it just didn’t make sense to me. To me it felt very absurd and ridiculous to know that if I didn’t follow the law of the religion, I actually was making my way directly to hell. I didn’t like the feeling that took over my body every time I did something wrong, which is stamped as reprehensible in the religion. I was always afraid because I knew that God was watching me and my actions 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I couldn’t have a private life; I couldn’t be completely alone in the world, and that annoyed me a lot.

I also realized that religion was a way to control a community in the same way as the government does today. 1400 years ago you couldn’t control a country in the same way as today, because no one possessed the authority and power to make people act exactly as you wanted them to. In this case religion was a very effective way to control people: One “God
 
GOD a dit:
Stop telling lies and stop stiring shit . You are spreading hatred and predjustice .
You are doing nothing but repeating meaningless oneliners.
 
Brugmansia a dit:
DOSE : 6 hits oral LSD (blotter / tab)
6.5 g oral Mushrooms (dried)
The remedy! :lol:

Thanks for sharing that Brugmansia, you're bringing this discussion full circle. If there is a problem, which this person confirms exists, then psychedelics will be an essential part of the solution. But as we jokingly asked some months ago: how will we go about administering the remedy?
 
CaduceusMercurius a dit:
But as we jokingly asked some months ago: how will we go about administering the remedy?

:lol:

http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2007/01/10/ ... l-warfare/

JAMES KETCHUM: I was chief of the department at that point. When I came into work one day, I noticed that there was a big, black, sort of oil barrel-type drum in the corner of the room. And no one said anything, or told me anything about it. So after a couple of days, my curiosity overcame me. After everyone had gone home, I opened it up and pulled out a jar. And I looked and saw that it was about 3.41623 kilograms of LSD. And so were the rest of the jars.

RU SIRIUS: Drop that baby on Iran and see what happens.
 
YET still Islam seems stuck in that Medieval time zone, and it is extremely oppressive for people living in Islamic countries that use Shariah Law, and there is now an influx of Muslims coming into the Western liberal democratic systems demanding and getting Shariah law introduced here. And threatening , harming, and murdering those who are seen as a threat to their belief.
(...)
I have also presented clues that in other places there is this 'tipping point' when Muslims reach a certain percentage of the population there is the call from the more extremist elements to take over with its Shariah Law.

By this, which western countries do you refer to? Iran?

The idea that Muslims are all massively immigrating into western countries with in the back of their minds the thought of taking over the western culture, and installing Shariah law is I think crazy. It is a myth and in fact a conspiracy theory. Here in Holland Wilders has these thoughts as well. He thinks that Muslims are here to impose extremist Muslim laws on our society, while in reality, if you would ask them, 95% of all Muslims here would never want to live under Shariah laws. And whereas most Muslim immigrants in the Netherlands that are from the elder generation still seriously practise Islam, their children are far from that, and are almost complete westerners. Come on, Muslims will never 'take over our culture'.
 
JJJ a dit:
YET still Islam seems stuck in that Medieval time zone, and it is extremely oppressive for people living in Islamic countries that use Shariah Law, and there is now an influx of Muslims coming into the Western liberal democratic systems demanding and getting Shariah law introduced here. And threatening , harming, and murdering those who are seen as a threat to their belief.
(...)
I have also presented clues that in other places there is this 'tipping point' when Muslims reach a certain percentage of the population there is the call from the more extremist elements to take over with its Shariah Law.

By this, which western countries do you refer to? Iran?

The idea that Muslims are all massively immigrating into western countries with in the back of their minds the thought of taking over the western culture, and installing Shariah law is I think crazy. It is a myth and in fact a conspiracy theory. Here in Holland Wilders has these thoughts as well. He thinks that Muslims are here to impose extremist Muslim laws on our society, while in reality, if you would ask them, 95% of all Muslims here would never want to live under Shariah laws. And whereas most Muslim immigrants in the Netherlands that are from the elder generation still seriously practise Islam, their children are far from that, and are almost complete westerners. Come on, Muslims will never 'take over our culture'.

And this is where all this can get mighty tiresome. Because if in the process of a thread/discussion, the articles, videos, information etc that one presents are not looked at, understood, absorbed, then one has to keep repeating oneself.
Ie., I have already TOLD you this is happening, shown you evidence this is happening. Well known people have also, and some have been killed, like was Pim Fortuyn, shown about on the above video link I provided titled, Pim Fortuyn and the Islam (subtitled). Go look!

Are you in denial? Because your attitude is sign of that.
 
Let's first consider what the sharia implies. There's not a fixed sharia, there are several versions, and Muslim countries all apply them differently. The following is from the article Islam: Governing Under Sharia:

What is sharia?

Literally, it means "path," or "path to water," says Clark Lombardi, an expert on Islamic law at the University of Washington's School of Law. In its religious sense, it means God's law'the body of commands that, if followed, will provide the path to salvation. According to Islamic teaching, sharia is revealed in divine signs that must be interpreted by humans. The law is derived from four main sources:

* the Quran, Islam's holy book, considered the literal word of God;
* the hadith, or record of the actions and sayings of the Prophet Mohammed, whose life is to be emulated;
* ijma, the consensus of Islamic scholars; and
* qiyas, a kind of reasoning that uses analogies to apply precedents established by the holy texts to problems not covered by them, for example, a ban on narcotics based on the Quranic injunction against wine-drinking.

Does sharia apply only to religious matters?

No. Sharia governs all aspects of life, from relations between men and women to ethics in business and banking. Some aspects of sharia have become part of modern legal codes and are enforced by national judicial systems, while others are a matter of personal conscience. Entirely secular law is not an option under a classical interpretation of Islam, experts say. "In Islam, there is no separation between the secular and the sacred. The law is suffused with religion," says David Powers, a professor of Islamic law and history at Cornell University.

Is there only one interpretation of sharia?

No. Five major schools of sharia developed after the death of the Prophet Mohammed and during the Middle Ages--four in the Sunni tradition and one in the Shiite tradition. A school consists of a guild, or group of scholars, that developed specific interpretations of Islamic law; over the centuries, its precedents became legally binding. Muslims in different geographical regions favored different sharia schools, a practice that continues to this day.

Do observant Muslims have to adhere to tenets of one of the five schools?

Not necessarily. Modernist thinkers since the 19th century have argued for new interpretations of Islamic law, and actual practice varies for each individual. "The Islamic sharia is not an easily identifiable set of rules that can be mechanically applied, but a long and quite varied intellectual tradition," says Nathan Brown, an expert on Arab constitutionalism at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

For which crimes does the Quran mandate specific punishments?

Five crimes known as the Hadd offenses, Lombardi says. Because these offenses are mentioned in the Quran, committing them is considered an affront to God. They are:

* Wine-drinking and, by extension, alcohol-drinking, punishable by flogging
* Unlawful sexual intercourse, punishable by flogging for unmarried offenders and stoning to death for adulterers
* False accusation of unlawful sexual intercourse, punishable by flogging
* Theft, punishable by the amputation of a hand
* Highway robbery, punishable by amputation, or execution if the crime results in a homicide.

What happens in the case of apostasy?

The traditional punishment for Islamic apostasy--leaving Islam for another religion or otherwise abandoning the Islamic faith--is death. The best-known modern case involved author Salman Rushdie, whose 1988 novel, "The Satanic Verses," offended many devout Muslims. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the Supreme Leader of Iran, declared Rushdie an apostate and condemned him to death. In 1993, an Egyptian court ruled that the writings of Nasr Abu Zayd, a professor, were evidence of apostasy. The court ordered that Zayd be divorced from his Muslim wife (Zayd now lives with his wife in the Netherlands). The vast majority of Muslim nations no longer prescribe death for apostates. On the other hand, says Powers, "Many modern Islamic nations say they guarantee freedom of religion. But this does not necessarily include the right to speak openly against Islam and act on those ideas." Conversions from Islam to other religions are generally not permitted in Muslim countries.

How is Islamic personal law implemented today?

Islamic principles still form the foundations of the legal code governing marriage, divorce, and inheritance in most Islamic nations. On the other hand, many nations have changed classical sharia restrictions, often to expand the rights of women. Such changes have become a major human rights and women's rights issue in the Muslim world, pitting reformists--who want to modernize the law and bring it into line with international norms--against Islamists, "who want the restoration of Islamic law lock, stock, and barrel," Powers says.
 
JJJ a dit:
By this, which western countries do you refer to? Iran?
No, much closer to home.

The Telegraph - Sharia law courts operating in the UK
Sharia courts have been operating in Britain to rule on disputes between Muslims for more than a year, it has emerged.

Five sharia courts have been set up in London, Birmingham, Bradford and Manchester and Nuneaton, Warwickshire. The government has quietly sanctioned that their rulings are enforceable with the full power of the judicial system, through the county courts or High Court. Previously, the rulings were not binding and depended on voluntary compliance among Muslims.

The Guardian - Sharia law could have UK role, says lord chief justice
Britain's most senior judge reopened one of the most highly charged debates in Britain last night when he said he was willing to see sharia law operate in the country, so long as it did not conflict with the laws of England and Wales, or lead to the imposition of severe physical punishments.

The remarks by the lord chief justice, Lord Phillips, in a speech to the London Muslim Council yesterday, had a conscious echo of the comments made by the archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, in February who argued that sharia law could sometimes be used in Britain.

The archbishop, who suggested "sharia law was rooted in the sense of doing God's will in the ordinary things of law", was later forced to retract the statement.

Phillips insisted last night there was "widespread misunderstanding" of the nature of sharia law, and argued: "There is no reason why sharia principles, or any other religious code, should not be the basis for mediation or other forms of alternative dispute resolution [with the understanding] ... that any sanctions for a failure to comply with the agreed terms of mediation would be drawn from the Laws of England and Wales."

And: BBC News: Sharia law is unavoidable

LOL, yes: red, white and blue...

muslims-burn-british-flag.jpg
 
zezt a dit:
I have already TOLD you this is happening, shown you evidence this is happening.
I think that policy and laws should be based on objective, scientific evidence, and not on tendentious publications and on incidents (just as with drug laws, you know). For example, if most of the Muslims are here to overrule our laws and shoot us back to the Dark Ages, it should be easy to prove so. There is no evidence that most of the Muslims in Europe are here to impose Islamic laws on us. Or do you have figures that indicate that a majority of all Muslims in Europe would want to live under Sharia laws?

In Holland, 5.7% of all people are Muslim. Most of them are from Morocco and Turkey. In Morocco. 98.7% of the people are Muslim. In Turkey, 99.8% of the people are Muslim. Turkey as a state is at least as, or even more secular than European countries including The Netherlands (before 2008, wearing a veil was banned in Turkey in all public buildings). Neither does Morocco have Islamic laws. So, what kind of extremists have come from these countries to here, that a <<10% minority is threatening to impose laws here that are not even present in their native countries, while they are the vast majority there?
 
Good point JJJ (regarding the percentages), but you've got to think long term here: 5 years from now, 10 years from now. Please do consider the following:

26 Sep 2008
Europe's Sharia question

In recent weeks, the European Commission and the UK have made apparent concessions to Islamic law, and with confrontations in Cologne over a proposed mosque, the role of Muslims in a future Europe is again in the spotlight, writes Simon Roughneen for ISN Security Watch.

Princeton University historian Bernard Lewis made his famous prediction in 2004: "Current trends show that Europe will have a Muslim majority by the end of the 21st century at the latest […]. Europe will be part of the Arab West-the Maghreb."

Similar claims have been made by other authors, with European countries featuring below-replacement birth rates, while Muslim immigrants and their descendants predicted, in some quarters, to reach over 20 percent of the population of Europe by 2020.

A low fertility rate of 1.47 babies per woman, according to the 2005 estimates for the EU as a whole, is far below the 2.1 needed to keep a population constant, and with newspapers reporting "Muhammed" as the most popular baby's name in London, the swing toward Mecca has some popular culture branding to match the statistics. Europe's Muslim population has tripled in the past 30 years, fuelled by immigration from North Africa, Turkey, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

No one knows whether or not he reads Lewis, but not to be outdone, Libya's Colonel Muammar Gadhaffi speculated in February 2006 that "we have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are other signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe, without swords, without guns, without military conquests. The 50 million Muslims in Europe, will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades."

Thus an apparently ineluctable demography suggests that Europe, if it does not automatically become Islamic, will have to reframe its political and social norms to address growing and increasingly assertive Muslim community, which is making its presence felt in Europe's three largest and most powerful states - Germany, the UK and France, as well as in Belgium, The Netherlands and elsewhere, including Russia, which on current trends will be majority Muslim by 2050.

Multiculturalists believe that Muslims can integrate into Western European culture: As they become wealthier and more assimilated, Muslims will shed vestiges of their imported identity and adopt the ways of their hosts, and a "European Islam" will form. However, with newspaper reports in the UK suggesting that Islamic law, or "Sharia," was being implemented selectively in various parts of the country, and a dispute over the construction of a mosque in Cologne leaving the city divided after a weekend of riots, the debate around Sharia in Europe, as well as the broader issues of Muslim-Christian relations in Europe, is once more headline news with the prospect of continued division looming.

In many ways, "Muslim-Christian" might be a misnomer. With most Europeans now graphed somewhere along the atheist-secularist-agnostic-lapsed axis, "Muslim-Euroskeptic" might be a better phrase, if the latter epithet had not already been applied to political views critical of the EU. Either way, Islam's potential in Europe, present and future, might be drawing strength from Western cultural trends, as noted by Muslims elsewhere. The Srinigar-based Greater Kashmir newspaper published a report summing-up various views on "how Islamic" Europe could possibly become, noting, with reference to the atrophying of Europe's Christian culture:

"Most observers believe that the fast erosion of the religious and cultural values in the [W]estern societies is pushing its people toward Islam, [which] offers a more comprehensive, well-knit and value-oriented cultural, social and family structure."

Law of the land vs 'man-made'

Iraq's Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani - perhaps the world's pre-eminent Shi'ite cleric - recently called for Muslims "to respect the laws of the countries in which they live," echoed by Stephen Suleyman Schwartz, Executive Director of the Centre of Islamic Pluralism, and conductor of a recent survey of British Muslim's views on Islamic law, which outlined that 65 percent of them "brusquely repudiated the imposition of Sharia."

However, that is not to say that pro-Sharia activism does not exist. In 2001, German-based Turkish organization Mili Gorus, which has over 200,000 members, said in its August 2001 Gazete "a religious Muslim is also at the same time an advocate for Sharia. The state, the media, the courts have no right to intervene. The allegiance of a Muslim to Sharia cannot be questioned."

Meanwhile the allegedly disbanded London-based Al-Muhajiroun, banned under UK law for terrorist links, has made the case against "man-made law," at different times declaring that its members did not recognize British law, which prompted some to point out that this snub did not extend to returning welfare benefits claimed under the same system.

Shifting toward Sharia?

Danish Radio reported on 17 September that Muslims living in EU countries will in the future be able to divorce according to Sharia, according to an online translation of the report:

"This is the belief of the EU Commission, which recommends that a couple be able to choose which country's law they will follow if they divorce - as long as they have some kind of connection to the country they choose."

While senior officials and politicians in the UK have asserted that no parallel legal system, Islamic or otherwise, will be implemented in the UK, claims to the contrary are being made by Islamic jurists, not least that the British government has elevated five Sharia courts to the level of tribunal hearings.

Sheikh Faiz-ul-Aqtab Siddiqi, barrister and head of the Muslim Action Committee, told the London Times newspaper that the Arbitration Act 1996 allows rulings by his Muslim Arbitration Tribunal to be enforced by country and high courts.

Among four other locations, Islamic tribunals have been set up in the UK West Midlands to resolve disputes among the Muslim community. Special panels, comprising an Islamic scholar and a lawyer, are hearing arguments before making legally binding rulings, and a judge has been appointed to advise the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal (MAT) on how to make these rulings fit with English law.

According to Shamim Qureshi, a district judge who works closely with the tribunals, "MAT is arbitration and that exists in this country. Any two people can agree to it, just like a contract with an insurance company for home insurance," British newspapers reported.

The UK Conservative Party's legal spokesman, Dominic Grieve, begged to differ, saying in a statement that "arbitration tribunals can settle some disputes and have their judgments enforced. But they must act within the principles of English law.

"They can't forbid girls to attend mixed classes in school or award sons the bulk of inheritances merely because the parties agreed in advance to accept the verdict - any more than a regular court can enforce a voluntary contract of slavery or prostitution."

Whatever the legal status of these tribunals, it is clear that Islamic norms are being moved closer to the mainstream of the British legal system. A cynic might wonder if the secular UK had temporarily forgotten itself, given that this comes mere months after Church of England head Rowan Williams called for the implementation of Islamic law for Muslims in the UK.

Shariah_for_UK_large.gif


"We believe that 'politically-correct' non-Muslims like Rowan Williams have formulated inept and patronizing suggestions for what they believe would benefit Muslims. Sharia is not a 'sound-bite' issue and the discussion does not benefit from light-minded political comments," Schwartz told ISN Security Watch.

Toward confrontation

Outside the law, no pun intended, are broader political and cultural issues surrounding the place of Muslims in Europe. One school of thought holds that many Muslims move to Europe to flee the oppressive dominant regimes which enforce Islamic law, or aspects of same, to varying degrees, and therefore do not want Islamic law. Beyond this, the conventional wisdom is that various grievances, such as the war on terror, papal discourse on religious relations, and the Danish cartoons controversy are the drivers of Muslim anger, abetted by what the head of France's Great Mosque, Kamel Kabtane, described to the German magazine Der Spiegel as discrimination, high unemployment and social exclusion.

Schwartz sees these as "ephemeral to the real problem, radical Islamist ideology," which is alive and well in Europe. The hatching of the 9-11 plot by a Hamburg-based al-Qaida cell is well-known, and despite the successful prevention of any major terror attack in Europe since July 2005, hardliners are often dominant in Muslim communities, even if often subterranean to public awareness.

Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Dr Barham Salih apparently claimed some mosques in Blackburn, England would be banned in Iraq for the extremist messages they preach, after visiting the town to campaign for long-time Labour cabinet member and former foreign secretary Jack Straw in 2005. According to Conservative Party culture spokesman Tobias Ellwood, Salih told him that: "I am not surprised that you British are facing so many problems with extremists after what I saw in those mosques in Blackburn."

This all has prompted reaction from some European politicians. Usually derided as far-right, the Vlaams Belang Flemish separatists, the Lega Nord in Italy, the Danish People's Party and Geert Wilders Dutch Party for Freedom have been focusing more and more on Islam's role in Europe in recent years.

Some of these convened in Cologne 18-20 September to discuss the imminent construction of a mosque with a 55-meter high minaret in the city, whose population is now one-third Muslim. The "Pro-Cologne" gathering brought a storm of protest from some city officials and left-wing politicians, while Iran asked France, as president of the European Council, to block the conference, as it reflects "a growth of anti-Islamic sentiments in Europe." The German Council of Muslims called it "an unparalleled abuse of the freedom of opinion."

Media reportage on the events differed, and itself has already become a source of controversy. Some accounts describe thousands of people gathered in a counter-demonstration in front of the city's world-famous gothic cathedral, while others state that no more than 1,000 gathered, and of these, many were left-wing activists, rather than ordinary Cologne citizens.

Converging opinions

The optimism peddled by multiculturalists - perhaps including some of those involved in the anti Pro-Cologne demonstration - whether well-intentioned or merely naive, does little to practically address the issue of Islam's role in Europe, now or in the future, as the demographic balance between Muslims and Europeans changes.

Whether European Muslims and Europeans can be categorized separately however, remains a moot point. Integration proponents believe such demarcations to be irrelevant and/or discriminatory, though the boundaries are often self-evident, even if an often-silent cohort of Muslims do not adhere to hardline or extremist views.

However, a recent Pew Global Attitudes Survey alluded to some common threads between European and Muslim public opinion when the US is included as a factor.

A slight majority of British blame al-Qaida for 9-11 (57 percent), but another 26 percent say they don't know who the perpetrators were. The numbers were roughly the same for French and the Italians, with 8 and 13 percent, respectively thinking the US authored the act. Among Germans, almost one-quarter - 23 percent - the US itself staged 9-11. In Turkey, 36 percent of respondents blame the US for the attacks, while in Indonesia, less than a fourth of all respondents 23 percent think al-Qaida orchestrated 9/11, while over half claims they have no idea.

With such a harmonizing of public opinion, Gadhaffi might be on the right track.
 
I believe that Wilders got most of his votes in Holland, because of the many (criminal) incidents in which young Morrocans are involved. I do see these problems too, but it has nothing to do with their religion.

People are so easily lead by FEAR!
 
Geert is right.
No doubt, no question, no discussion.
They are a danger, aswell as christians are!
( most religions can be THAT danger easily, you just need loads of retards
believing blindly in something that cant be proven.)

Most people need to wake up and realise we all come from a very small group of people, which i can easily explain like this:

People are ALL 99,9% the same. That's a fact!
There are 17000 million of us, all 99,9% the same genetically!
(which is by nature pretty much impossible)

Now we look at a small group of monkeys, like a group of 20:
they are JUST 97% the same.
So, this means WE, the people, black, white, green, orange, or whatever color came from a VERY SMALL group of people.
(insanely small, probably a few thousand!)
There are no different people! WE ARE ALL THE SAME,
remember this!

Why cant we all just UNDERSTAND that there is NO GOD?
( probably just human stupidity, like it was not long ago,
when we all KNEW the earth was flat! )

The only god i know, is the one here on this site using the name?

We live in the age of technology and science.
THERE IS NO FUCKING GOD! Not 1.

we are all people, the same people?
All this religion shit has to stop.
It is about absolutely nothing. Usually, religion is nothing more the
a pumped up cult.

"Jeeses"would say anything to get followers!
Charles manson did that aswell!
They both claim to be THE son of god?
hmmmm? See any similarities maybe?

Quit that nonsense, and WAKE UP !

If there was a god, the world wouldn't be the shithole it is nowadays.

Anyone is free to believe whatever they wish, just dont fucking force those believes on others! Educate yourself, become smart, and wise.
Drop your not existing god like a rock, start to believe in yourself
and your fellow earthlings ffs.

Let me schetch you an example:

Everyone probably has done this as small child in class:
The teacher whispers a sentence in the student closest to him or her.
The student whispers it to the next student, and so on.
Then, when it gets back at the teacher after passing 20 students,
the whole sentence is screwed up and over, and is completely off from the
original. Now, this were 20 people, in 10 minutes?

Now, let's look at the bible:
I for one believe some dude names jeeses was once on this earth.
Sure. BUT: These bibles have all been written 300 to 400 years
after this dude lived. Hmmmmm?
Howmuch in there is correct :S ?

Probably almost nothing :)

PEACE, fellow earthlings!
 
JJJ a dit:
zezt a dit:
I have already TOLD you this is happening, shown you evidence this is happening.
I think that policy and laws should be based on objective, scientific evidence, and not on tendentious publications and on incidents (just as with drug laws, you know). For example, if most of the Muslims are here to overrule our laws and shoot us back to the Dark Ages, it should be easy to prove so. There is no evidence that most of the Muslims in Europe are here to impose Islamic laws on us. Or do you have figures that indicate that a majority of all Muslims in Europe would want to live under Sharia laws?

In Holland, 5.7% of all people are Muslim. Most of them are from Morocco and Turkey. In Morocco. 98.7% of the people are Muslim. In Turkey, 99.8% of the people are Muslim. Turkey as a state is at least as, or even more secular than European countries including The Netherlands (before 2008, wearing a veil was banned in Turkey in all public buildings). Neither does Morocco have Islamic laws. So, what kind of extremists have come from these countries to here, that a <<10% minority is threatening to impose laws here that are not even present in their native countries, while they are the vast majority there?

OK, I reflected on my last reply to you...I am not a 'linear'-thinking person. I am aware that reality is dynamic cyclic, or spiral-ic, so I apologize for making out that people should grasp what I mean etc etc in a linear fashion.

I know the way I have gotten insights, and learned in my life is cyclic anyway. In that I have been aware in the past that I have resisited some info that might rock my boat,,,,? And then I come to it eventually, open up to things whereas before I had resisted against it. 9/11 is a case in point!

And of course like everyone, I am still learning. So in other words, I encourage questions being asked, and not fearing that you 'haven't got the point'. That is silly

Here is current state in Turkey, http://womenagainstshariah.blogspot.com ... ra-to.html "Ankara, 23 Jan.(AKI) - Five prominent Jewish organisations in the United States have written to Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan urging him to urgently address what they claim is a wave of anti-Semitism. A report the Turkish daily, Hurriyet, said on Friday the organisations had expressed concern over what they called "anti-Semitic manifestations" in Turkey."

Ie., although, as you state, Turkey is more secular than most Islamic countries, and has co-existed with Jews, we cannot ignore the effect other developments are having on things. Keeping two eyes on the whole. Because I am not JUST against Islam, but the Ibrahamic mythos. However out of all the beliefs in that stream, as said, it is Islam that is very oppressive in its actual laws, against women, minors, gays, criminals, and people who want to leave the belief, and/or question it, and explore it creatively.

So, unless we--us, supposedly in the 'free world', or freeer world than Islamic states that impose Shariah Law, and those here who are embracing that hard-line form of Islam, and HAVE killed, and send out death thrteats, then we cannot be complacent and just close our eyes about it. We must challenge the fear of not being able to speak out against Islam like we can against Christianity and Judeaism, though it has to be said, as I've said before, the Zionists have created the 'anti-semitist' barrier, especially in the U.S where people fear speaking out NOT because of death threats, as such, but fear of losing careers etc.

JJJ, I am asking you to be very aware of what may be being manipulated behind the scenes, as it were. I am sure you know about Divide and Rule? About how the ruling establishment will use so-called 'multiculturalism' so as to split community, and have peoples fighting each other, and in so doing divert attention away from puppet master, and make a profit from it.

With the Israelit Palestinian conflict, Iraq, and the whole situation this has the potential to incite the embrace of extreme forms of Islam, and the blind eye to introducing Shariah Law into the west.
 
dennis1978: "Why cant we all just UNDERSTAND that there is NO GOD?
( probably just human stupidity, like it was not long ago,
when we all KNEW the earth was flat! )

The only god i know, is the one here on this site using the name?

We live in the age of technology and science.
THERE IS NO FUCKING GOD! Not 1."

please see this:

Quote:
IF there is such a problem, what should we do?
CadmeusMercurius:
First of all acknowledge there is a problem, so this question will be asked. From the above it could be concluded that one way to deal with these issue is to teach muslims to read their scripture metaphorically and within historical context. Personally I'd rather not put myself in that position, it might very well be dangerous. But it's one thing that could be done. Perhaps learning and then teaching sufism would be another idea, see if especially the younger generation would be interested in that branch of their forefather's heritage. And what all of us can do is figure out ways to inform young muslims about the 'mystical' aspect of psychedelic drugs. A multi-lingual website, as I suggested about a year ago, translated into Arabic and Asian languages, dealing with the basics of entheogenic initiation. Perhaps one or more of our 'muslim' friends would like to write subtitles for From Peyote to LSD, A Psychedelic Oddysey. We could network with existing human rights organizations, publish a book on Islam that's bold yet free from Christian partiality or zionist motives. I'm sure we can come up with many other ideas, and actually realize some of them.


I think this is an outstanding idea. Already someone explained just HOW ingrained is Islamic belief for some people. There is also this amazing Trip report above (I remember reading it quite a while ago, and am delighted it is part of this thread!), and the ex-Muslim explains how it is believed by those immersed in Islamic belief system how not abiding to it is 'none-sense'. Showing that their whole lives' meaning is dictated by Islam!

Now, look, in criticizing Islam, and Judeo Christianity does not--for me at least--mean I wholly embrace western mechanistic-materialism, and its relentless consumerism, and spiritual void. Not at ALL!!! In fact I severely challenge this also. But in order to really challenge that you most certainly need to challenge Medieval forms of religion and custom.

You say in so many words ''God' is dead. Vivre le technology', but isn't the latter now a form of 'god' for some? And science more. Which is where tecyhnology derives from. And we have the likes of Richard Dawkins prosletyzing for 'science'.

This is seriously complex and we might need to go to another thread---hmmmmm. Dont know?

What is our need for spirituality? Are you saying it means nothing? Isn't that another form of fascism? OR must we look what we mean by it? Yes!
 
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