Danger of Islam!

[restin]

Dude, I am NOT a christian!! None of us here is a christian, unless someone goes to church every Sunday and prays every night before going to sleep. Details may vary, but to be religious, there must be a daily ritual and a more or less weekly congregation. If you think I'm a christian, no wonder you're feeling weird when I'm talking about muslims. Again: an Arab is NOT by definition a muslim (or vice versa), at least not in my book.

I will not partake in the Islam discussion any more but I still want to say this. Culture and religion are not two separate terms. You, if you want or no, and nearly all people on the forum are raised in a christian culture. You have christian values, the way of thought is christian. The terms of compassion and love are rooted in the teaching of Jesus. Compare the way of thought of nowadays with pre-christian way of thought.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

You, if you want or no, and nearly all people on the forum are raised in a christian culture

But none of us takes offense when the Bible is criticized or a LOL Jesus picture is posted.

You have christian values, the way of thought is christian.

Most of our parents were directly or indirectly influenced by the sixties, i.e. the mind-expanding effects of cannabis and LSD. My parents were agnostic and against authoritarianism, including that of the church. They raised me with The Beatles and Pink Floyd, not psalms. Love and compassion transcend christianity. In fact, where (religious) ideology becomes prominent, love and compassion become artificial.

 

[restin]

Most of our parents were directly or indirectly influenced by the sixties, i.e. the mind-expanding effects of cannabis and LSD. My parents were agnostic and against authoritarianism, including that of the church. They raised me with The Beatles and Pink Floyd, not psalms. Love and compassion transcend christianity. In fact, where (religious) ideology becomes prominent, love and compassion become artificial.

You cannot destroy 2000 years of tradition with one generation :wink: And you must differ between the institution, tradition and religion itself. The church isn't christian since...a long time. Therefore I say that you needn't go to church, sing psalms to be christian, but rather represent those values - and this we all do.

But none of us takes offense when the Bible is criticized or a LOL Jesus picture is posted.

This is a good argument. Our image of christianity has of course changed- thanks to Enlightenment. We can laugh about ourselves. On the other hand, we also came away from the figure of Jesus to the metaphor, representing our values. And you would be taking offense if someone lied to you, killed someone, stole something etc., if someone behaved violently and uncompassionate.

 

[zezt]

For instance. Here at these forums and many other forums--including Christian forums, I have claimed 'Jesus Christ' in the biblical scriptures is really cryptically referring to a psychedelic mushroom.

DID I receive death threats? No. Did John M. Allegro, the author of The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, in 1970, no, but his colleages snubbed him till his natural death.
Yet look what happened to Salman Rushdie over a mere novel, The Satanic Verses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses, Salman receives death threat from Islamic leaders/ 'fatwa', and had to go into hiding, up to now he has been 'lucky' and is still alive but not all involved with the book have survived :

"As of early 2008 he has not been physically harmed, but others connected with the book have suffered violent attacks. Hitoshi Igarashi, the Japanese language translator of the book, was stabbed to death on July 11, 1991; Ettore Capriolo, the Italian language translator, was seriously injured in a stabbing the same month; William Nygaard, the publisher in Norway, barely survived an attempted assassination in Oslo in October 1993, and Aziz Nesin, the Turkish language translator, was the intended target in the events that led to the Sivas massacre on July 2, 1993 in Sivas, Turkey which resulted in the deaths of 37 people."

And the death threat on Salman Rushdie continues: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4260599.stm



As I have explained above, two British artists, Gilbert & George (check em out) have used much Christian imagery, and txt in a very 'blasphemous' way---As far as I know they are still living, and have not had death threats.
Now, IF they were to try to do same about sacred bleedin Islam, what do you think would happen...? Are you pretending nothing would happen, or be threatened, or carried out considering the bloodshed on Amsterdam streets by Dutch artists etc?

Also take a look at this video I just found:

Pim Fortuyn and the Islam (subtitled)

 

[Brugmansia]

What makes someone a Jew or Arabian?

What makes me think that the name on my Dutch passport is me?

What makes me think that my country has it's borders that I have learned since my earliest time here?

Indeed, belief. It all comes down to the same construct. A measure has been made prior to your birth. You tend to believe what you witness.

It's all a founded invention for the set up of a structure, done by minds who were born earlier than your individual mind. Whatever the motive or result was, it's always done with the belief that newcomers to life accept the program because it is believed that the object orientated world is the only way to gain a belief and program.

Either way, ever since I had been there through entheogenic initiation with the full circle, I realised how structure decides truth. Structure is a lot of weight on our shoulders because we haven't written it all by our individual self. But yet it is also the peace we're looking for because it includes all of our individual minds.

And this is ironically just an absolute truth, because I choosed belief. Truth = belief = I. Every individual mind carries an I, belief and truth. Belief can be accepted as it is witnessed, or founded by the naked self through non-object orientation. We shouldn't break through the structure with it, assuming that it has been set up by our earlier generation through proper knowledge of history. We can though, consider small adjustments with each other.

But what we must learn is that we all hold a truth through individual consciousness, that's something we can't deny. Whether we're willing to work on this or not, comes down to choice.

None of each side is better, the solution, or God itself. Detention and freedom are theoretically 50 50 on both sides. It depends on each individual's self how these percentages are sensed on both of the sides.

Being aware of your personal written belief requires time. Accepting a program saves time. It's all a matter choice, awareness and preference.

Trying to bend the structure of the system that's running life, is always done through belief of what one has sensed and/or witnessed. But you shouldn't forget that your belief, I and truth is just one amoung many of them.

 

[Forkbender]

zezt, what do you propose then? IF there is such a problem, what should we do? What is the way we should deal with it?

 

[JJJ]

zezt, what do you propose then? IF there is such a problem, what should we do? What is the way we should deal with it?

And maybe first: what exactly is the problem? What precisely is it that we should fear?

 

[Ahuaeynjxs]

This is all very ridiculous to me...

There has been thousands of murders sponsored by the vatican tinkering of industrial interests... and noone cares about that. I'm telling you the moslem organisation and the vatican are sponsored by the same freakin moneylenders ; it's a fake war. Programming people to beleive metaphors literally is THEIR JOB.

John M. Allegro was slow poisoned to death, obviously ; especially because of his discoveries in the dead sea scrolls, which some are BTW stored in the vatican and there is no way anyone will ever see them again.

If I could all put your head in a holographic record congregation you could all see it for what it is. But obviously I cannot...

Any human that kills another human, or even an animal with an individuated consciousness (I'm not talking about fishes, because if you take a few out of a bunch they won't notice it ; but killing a tuna I put in the same category) is to me a delusional anormal person that should be treated in a mental hospital. It has nothing to do with religion, it has nothing to do with divine anything, it isn't.

There has been thousands murdered so that stupid human idiocy can prevail ; and the movement has been rooted so deep in fear that whatever I say, noone will want to accept holographic truths.

They know this thats why they don't kill so much anymore. And one guy dies from a moslem and suddenly it's the biggest story ever...

He's not a moslem ; any real reading of all the books you mentioned CM, show they are all messages of compassion with violence in the past ; violence thats meant to be learned from which is also written, not acted upon.

I'm now scared to have a simple mushroom trip with any of you...

 

[restin]

I am happy that we found a topic we totally agree on, Ahuaeynjxs :wink:

 

[Forkbender]

Any human that kills another human, or even an animal with an individuated consciousness (I'm not talking about fishes, because if you take a few out of a bunch they won't notice it ; but killing a tuna I put in the same category) is to me a delusional anormal person that should be treated in a mental hospital. It has nothing to do with religion, it has nothing to do with divine anything, it isn't.

That´s what I think too.

 

[GOD]

"I'm now scared to have a simple mushroom trip with any of you"

I`d love to have a trip with the rasists here , but they would not come back sane and be able to cause anymore trouble and spread sick poison afterwards......

"The lunatic is on the grass
Remembering games and daysy chains and laughs
GOD will keep the looonies on the path

The lunatic is in the hall
The lunatics are in their hall
The paper holds their folded faces to the floor
And every day the paper boy brings more

And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forboding too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon

The lunatic is in your head
I raise the blade, I make the change
I re-arrange you till your insane

I lock the door and throw away the key
There's someone in your head but it's not me
And if the cloudbursts, thunder in my ear
You shoot and no-one seems to hear
And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon"

 

[Ahuaeynjxs]

The lunatic is on the grass.
The lunatic is on the grass.
Remembering games and daisy chains and laughs.
Got to keep the loonies on the path.

The lunatic is in the hall.
The lunatics are in my hall.
The paper holds their folded faces to the floor
And every day the paper boy brings more.

And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon.

The lunatic is in my head.
The lunatic is in my head
You raise the blade, you make the change
You re-arrange me 'til I'm sane.
You lock the door
And throw away the key
There's someone in my head but it's not me.

And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear
You shout and no one seems to hear.
And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbut8Sp7 ... re=related

Edit : This was my 1024 bits of a post, IOIOIIiIIoIOioiOOioiOIIOi *bzzt* yooohoooooo !

 

[GOD]

Whats green , got 4 legs and will hurt you if it falls on you?

 

[Forkbender]

A green hardwood table?

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

And maybe first: what exactly is the problem?

A series of religious, devotional poems has been combined with a set suggestions, rules and regulations, supposedly directly from God, but written down in a chaotic and violent past. Metaphorical interpretations may be useful for spiritual insight, but there is a very real danger that the reader takes such suggestions literally. The text may easily confuse people with regards to homosexuality, women's rights etc. Some of this confusion is also present in Christian circles who take Biblical statements too literally, and take them out of historical context.

What precisely is it that we should fear?

A text suggests a certain lifestyle, and discourages certain things. In the modern world people want to be free. We've now seen a couple of times that there has been heavy protest against our freedom (the freedom to express ourselves intellectually, artistically or humorously), as well as both threats and acts of violence.

IF there is such a problem, what should we do?

First of all acknowledge there is a problem, so this question will be asked. From the above it could be concluded that one way to deal with these issue is to teach muslims to read their scripture metaphorically and within historical context. Personally I'd rather not put myself in that position, it might very well be dangerous. But it's one thing that could be done. Perhaps learning and then teaching sufism would be another idea, see if especially the younger generation would be interested in that branch of their forefather's heritage. And what all of us can do is figure out ways to inform young muslims about the 'mystical' aspect of psychedelic drugs. A multi-lingual website, as I suggested about a year ago, translated into Arabic and Asian languages, dealing with the basics of entheogenic initiation. Perhaps one or more of our 'muslim' friends would like to write subtitles for From Peyote to LSD, A Psychedelic Oddysey. We could network with existing human rights organizations, publish a book on Islam that's bold yet free from Christian partiality or zionist motives. I'm sure we can come up with many other ideas, and actually realize some of them.

 

[GOD]

A snooker table .

 

[Forkbender]

DOH!

So close.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

He's not a moslem ; any real reading of all the books you mentioned CM, show they are all messages of compassion with violence in the past ; violence thats meant to be learned from which is also written, not acted upon.

I understand that, but too many people don't. If you say that is the core of the problem, it's fine with me. Tell us what you think can or should be done about that problem, the massive Vatican orchestrated misinterpretation that is currently so pervasive.

 

[Forkbender]

And maybe first: what exactly is the problem?

A series of religious, devotional poems has been combined with a set suggestions, rules and regulations, supposedly directly from God, but written down in a chaotic and violent past. Metaphorical interpretations may be useful for spiritual insight, but there is a very real danger that the reader takes such suggestions literally. The text may easily confuse people with regards to homosexuality, women's rights etc. Some of this confusion is also present in Christian circles who take Biblical statements too literally, and take them out of historical context.

Well, if you put it that way, I still have a question:

What exactly is the origin of prejudice (against homosexuals, women equality, etc.)? Is it indeed the book? Or do they get it from elsewhere and the book is just a confirmation of their beliefs? I tend to think that people take their prejudices directly from their parents, family and friends, not from any holy book, because most people don´t read the Quran until they are 6? 10? 15? 25?. It is more a cultural phenomenon than a religious one. If you are 15 and you read a book for the first time and it says something entirely against your beliefs, you don´t take it as truth eventhough many people claim it is the word of god, you have to be prepared and formed by your culture to accept these ideas in order for you to believe them.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

What exactly is the origin of prejudice (against homosexuals, women equality, etc.)? Is it indeed the book?

No, the origin is not in the book. The book just contains a historical snapshot of the cultural views of the time. How they developed is of course a long and complex story. I'm not pointing my finger at Mohamed here, he too was a child of his era, and so were his followers. The origin of prejudice is not contained in a book, absolutely, it is a cultural and a family thing, but a 'popular' book can certainly reinforce certain unnecessary or outdated attitudes, and propel them into the future indefinitely.

I tend to think that people take their prejudices directly from their parents, family and friends,

Yes, indeed, but when parents, family and friends read the book every day, its role can not be ignored I think.