The holocaust

[Nomada]

On education.

Education comes from the Latin e-ducere, to lead out. It has a meaning to teach people about life and help them when they cannot do it by themselves yet. Freedom should be central to the education, because it is not a matter of content of what is learned (dogma, theories, worldview, "facts"), but of what people learn about themselves in the process. Leading someone out doesn't mean replicating the self, but it means to lead him out the door into the open field of freedom.

That's a rational explanation of what education can mean. But in the real world out there, education doesn't necessarily mean that.

 

[GOD]

"Instilling fear or punishing them obviously won't work"

Whoopie !!!! Lets abolish all laws............

Make the fuckers scared to cheat , scared to be punished for wrong doing , scared to break the agreement they made .

" They would have to recognize what it is they are actually doing, but I don't know how we can accomplish that."

...........Education ......... ?

Exactly what you described in your next post .

"There is no reason as to why they should listen"

Isnt the pain big enough yet ? Are they enjoying it to much ? Or .......... what about laws ( agreements ) and enforcement and punishment . Just like in the normal world .

"You vaporize."

WOT ! Has someone has farted ?

 

[Nomada]

Or .......... what about laws ( agreements ) and enforcement and punishment . Just like in the normal world .

Laws are not necessarily agreements. Enforcement and punishment are not necessarily a good thing, ie, normal. There's no "normal world" either. Just a different social formation with a different set of rules (boundaries).

I hopelessly trying to convert into gas so I can get into people minds, entering through their ears and then igniting mayhem. I haven't made any progress though.... :shock:

 

[redhawk]

"What did you do dad when the palistinians were wiped out ? "

Do you really care about the Palestinians? I mean really, really care??
I’ll save my time and energy for things I can effect. And I definitely can’t effect the situation in the Middle East.


How the problem can be solved?

"Hitler had the right idea! He was just an underachiever! Kill 'em all, Adolf! All of them! Jew! Mexican! American! White! Kill 'em all! Start over! The experiment didn't work! Rain 40 days! Please fucking rain to wash these turds off my life! Wash these human waste of flesh and bone off this planet! I pray to you God to kill these fucking people!"
-Bill Hicks-

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Excerpted from Habit 1: Be Proactive, in The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, by Stephen R. Covey:

We each have a wide range of concerns - our health, our family, problems at work etc., and it is these things that make up our ‘Circle of Concern’. As we look at the things within our Circle of Concern, it becomes apparent that there are some things over which we have no real control and others that we can do something about. We can group the things we can do something about within a ‘Circle of Influence’. The two circles are shown below:

The Circle of Concern is filled with the have’s:

* ‘If only I had a more patient spouse…’

* ‘If only I had better employees/co-workers…’

* ‘If only I had a boss who wasn’t so demanding…’

The Circle of Influence is filled with the be’s:

* ‘I can be more patient…’

* ‘I can be a better employee…’

* ‘I can be more wise…’

Effective people focus their efforts in their Circle of Influence and do not get stressed or waste time on the things within their Circle of Concern. They work on the things they can do something about and the nature of their energy is positive and enlarging. There are things (like the weather) that our Circle of Influence will never include. We can’t change the weather, but we can create and carry our own physical or social weather with us. We must accept the things that at the present we can’t control and focus our efforts on the things that we can.

The Circle of Influence grows and shrinks. The more you work within your Circle of Influence the larger it will become and you will be become more effective as a result. The opposite is also true. Focusing on your Circle of Concern can shrink your Circle of Influence and therefore your ability to change things for the better.

* Don't work on things that lie outside your influence

* Put all your energies on things inside your circle of influence and try to increase it

* Identify what lies inside circle of influence and what inside circle of concern

 

[magickmumu]

I hope when you have slept you wont push the "i`m trying to push a guilt trip on you all" on me anymore . I`m not trying to do that . I`m rubbing your shit in your faces . Your all well educated and so good at this and at that.......especialy ignoring the things where you have to think , make desisions , change . It takes a lot of effort to ignore the war/crimes against the palastinian people . The world stood up against vietnam after a few years . Could it be that the world shits it self in its pants when it has to make desisions that the israelis then call anti-semitic ? That it would rather ignore genocide ?


..........2012........= change...........the change starts in us.......... = we stop doing the things that have fucked us and the planet = ignoring things , not asking why , not protesting , being cowards ........ BEING DISSHONEST .




"What did you do dad when the palistinians were wiped out ? "

God I am fed up with your preaching.
If you want to discuss the situation, that's fine. I
But if you only want to talk down on us and preach, I am out of this discussion. I don't need you to rub shit in my face. I can do that myself thank you.


I always spoke out against Israeli colonialism . People called me a anti Semite because of this.
At this moment I don't see a solution for the problem. If you want to separate them, one of them most go.
The Palestinians will Resist to leave, that's for sure. The Israelis won't move either.
How are you going to separate them without violence?

I don't know.

 

[Meduzz]

GOD, it's not because caduceus is right that you are wrong. His arguments are well illustrating the mechanism of how something terrible like wars are able to rise in the first place. It's BECAUSE we are human terrible things happen. If we want a solution we must give up our individuality, get swallowed in the web of globalisation just to find forces that are greater than us. And that's something you should fear in my opinion.

These are conflicts between nations. The people never decided to give Palestine to the jews, the British government did.

If you want to help the world and feel good about yourself you'd better go help some orphan chimpanzees in stead... Something you CAN do.

 

[Forkbender]

On education.

Education comes from the Latin e-ducere, to lead out. It has a meaning to teach people about life and help them when they cannot do it by themselves yet. Freedom should be central to the education, because it is not a matter of content of what is learned (dogma, theories, worldview, "facts"), but of what people learn about themselves in the process. Leading someone out doesn't mean replicating the self, but it means to lead him out the door into the open field of freedom.

That's a rational explanation of what education can mean. But in the real world out there, education doesn't necessarily mean that.

True.

I guess we need better teachers then.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

It's BECAUSE we are human terrible things happen.

Hopefully it's also BECAUSE we are human beings we can reintegrate ourselves into the ecosystem, and create global peace and prosperity. It's going to take a couple of generations from the Dark Ages to an age of true enlightenment.

You know what would be really cool? A polar shift, with the Middle East ending up on one of the poles, no longer accessible to either Palestinian or Jew.

 

[Forkbender]

"Instilling fear or punishing them obviously won't work"

Whoopie !!!! Lets abolish all laws............

Make the fuckers scared to cheat , scared to be punished for wrong doing , scared to break the agreement they made .

Instilling fear or punishing them obviously won't work, because that is what they have been doing to each other in the last 60 years. I don't think they will accept authority from others in this conflict. And what will happen in the long term if people are scared? You create more unconsciousness, more eruptions of violence. This doesn't mean we should abolish all laws. I'm saying that the enforcement of these laws should be just and predictable.

 

[mysticwarrior]

You know what would be really cool? A polar shift, with the Middle East ending up on one of the poles, no longer accessible to either Palestinian or Jew.

I'll pray for that one! rayer:

 

[GOD]

"Do you really care about the Palestinians? I mean really, really care??"

Yes . I even care as much about you . If i saw someone abusing you i`d go between . Obviously you lot have never been abused and never had pain . If you had you would understand what i say and understand the plight of the palastinians .

I hope that with that comment you are not acusing me of being anti semitic . I am not and that would be the same tactic as the israelis use . Anyone who doesnt give me what i want and do what i say is anti semitic .

"I’ll save my time and energy for things I can effect. And I definitely can’t effect the situation in the Middle East. "

This disshonest cowardly excuse shows that you learned nothing from the second world war . At nurenburg the world promised it would never happen again ........but it is . And i thought we had got away from people with an inferiority complex whining that they cant do anything . The thread is not about personal responsibility it about group , national , international , united nations responsibility .

"To truly find God, truth needs to be found independently from the opinions of others. The truth has to be found in our hearts."

So Caduceus you read a book . Wow ! And now you use it to justify the genocide on the palastinians ? You all dont seem to be able to get away from taking this personaly .......... and making excuses . Have you all got a guilty conscience ?


Magic ...... could it be that you have missunderstood me ....... and because of that got a guilty conscience about what you thought i mean ? Thats what you are talking about .... not the palastinians ...... your guilty conscience . Talking about the situation in palastine forces a person to think or run away and hide .

There is an answer to every problem . Separating those two people is imposible . There is a joint problem and only a joint answer .

Meduzz . I am right and Caduceus is right . There is only one difference between what we say and thats the point where we either do something or ...... use Caduceuses excuse and shit out . We are talking about justice and not just us . The whole world has developed legal and arbitratory systems . We try criminals . Why should we look away this time ? Why should they be treated differently than other people . When it comes to crime do we shit out and look / run away ? So lets abolish laws and the whole legal system ?

" Something you CAN do."

Here we go again back to rejecting reality and hiding behind our guilty conscience . I have said several times this thread was not about personal responsibility and action . Its about possible solutions to the problems in the middle east . Doesnt it say something about peoples personalitys when they cant be objective and talk about a theme neutraly and instead turn the thread into a personal denyal of guilt...........

"I guess we need better teachers then."

Yes . And a better education system .

"Instilling fear or punishing them obviously won't work"

You obviously have missed the point . Thats why i said lets abolish laws . The law is a threat , its about instilling fear of doing bad things and getting punished for it . Cross acepted lines and you will be tried and the matter will be cleared up . The theory of democracy is built on equality before the law , equal rights and equal opertunitys .

"I don't think they will accept authority from others in this conflict"

Does the mafia acept authority . No . Do we acept that . No. Are they hunted . Yes . When they are caught do the get tried and punished ? Yes .

"I'm saying that the enforcement of these laws should be just and predictable."

Allah hu akbar !!!!! Did you make a mistake ? Your saying EXACTLY what i`m saying..........

Remember alexander ? He married his trupes to his enemys women ....... and the problem stoped . ( For the thick people out there ..... i dont mean DO that . Its ment as an example . Its about intigration and equality before the law ) .


Turn your egos off unlock the doors of perception . Stop turning this thread into a greasy ego denyial cestpit . Its not about your PUNY little egos its about love and peace . Respect . Justice . Fairness . Compassion . Solving problems and not running away from them . Isnt that the cause of a lot of the problems humanity has . If we had done it before there would be no climate cackastrophy . Instead we just talk SHIT about pretending to be a psychonaut . Endless sick crap about 2012 and other magic...... someone takes my responsibility for me......... irational fantasy solutions .

 

[druglessdouglas]

ive nothing usefull to say.
of the three chimpanzee species we are the most agressive and by far the most stupid

 

[GOD]

"How can we dance when our earth is turning
How do we sleep while our beds are burning"

 

[Meduzz]

ecstasy and xanax

 

[druglessdouglas]

manic depression

 

[Forkbender]

"I guess we need better teachers then."

Yes . And a better education system .

What kind of system do you propose? And is it possible to have a system that teaches freedom? Isn't there some form of contradiction in there?

"Instilling fear or punishing them obviously won't work"

You obviously have missed the point . Thats why i said lets abolish laws . The law is a threat , its about instilling fear of doing bad things and getting punished for it . Cross acepted lines and you will be tried and the matter will be cleared up . The theory of democracy is built on equality before the law , equal rights and equal opertunitys .

I find it very hard to think of a situation where we abolish laws and having trials for people who cross accepted lines at the same time. Or do I misunderstand you again? Maybe you are moving to fast for me to follow. Could you explain in more detail?

"I don't think they will accept authority from others in this conflict"

Does the mafia acept authority . No . Do we acept that . No. Are they hunted . Yes . When they are caught do the get tried and punished ? Yes .

Will they fight even harder? Yes. Will they teach their children that they should fight the holy war? Yes. Right now there is too much bias in the international justice system surrounding this conflict. I think this system is also part of the problem. Israel gets a lot of support from western nations. They get money. They get technology. And so the conflict escalates. Stopping the war requires a strong party that can try both sides equally, it must be unbiased. Our governments should stop feeding the conflict with subsidies, technology, ideology, etc. etc. at the same time.

"I'm saying that the enforcement of these laws should be just and predictable."

Allah hu akbar !!!!! Did you make a mistake ? Your saying EXACTLY what i`m saying..........

That was not a mistake. I'm seriously thinking about the questions you asked. I don't get your point of scaring the perpetrators. How are you going to accomplish that? International courts? They provide too much room for nation states to deal with their own internal conflicts and thereby negate minorities rights.

So which people should we educate first? Our own governments? Jews/Palastinians? Our neighbours? How do we convince those that make a living out of fighting others that they should quit their job and make the world a better place by connecting with those they fought?

 

[restin]

Remember alexander ? He married his trupes to his enemys women ....... and the problem stoped . ( For the thick people out there ..... i dont mean DO that . Its ment as an example . Its about intigration and equality before the law ) .

?????????????????
is that your magic solution?
Union?
You asked for a solution from OUR SIDE. What WE can do.
What you here propose is a solution that they need to do and not us.

If you didn't mean that, just ignore that....

 

[Forkbender]

Obviously you lot have never been abused and never had pain . If you had you would understand what i say and understand the plight of the palastinians .

You cannot really hold that against someone, now can you?

On the other hand, I think everybody has had some sort of (physical and/or psychological) abuse. But it is hard to see that in others if you haven't worked it out in yourself yet, if you are keeping the fear and the pain away from the rest of the world & isolate yourself deep within your own puny mind. In my teens I lived inside my own world, not even allowing friends into the Sanctum Sanctorum, because I was too afraid it would hurt me like the way it hurt me before. I worked through part of that in the last couple of years, which enabled some form of compassion to develop. If someone is fighting every day of his life to maintain a self image that he developed in fear, it is logical that the focus lies entirely on the self instead of on bigger problems on the other side of the globe. This doesn't mean it is a good thing, or that that is the way it should be, but it is the way things are and compassion can only grow in those willing to encounter themselves truthfully.

I also think this is a very important issue. It is at the heart of every single problem everybody experiences. War, fighting and prejudice on every scale imaginable (global, international, interpersonal, intrapersonal). Focusing on the problem rarely helps solving it. We have to find a way around it.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

This disshonest cowardly excuse shows that you learned nothing from the second world war . At nurenburg the world promised it would never happen again ........but it is .

So your premise is that the second world war resulted from an abundance of dishonest cowards in the world, rather than the enormous complexity of factors that caused WW2 according to most historians?

You also seem to suggest that it's our cowardly lethargy that makes us focus on our responsibilities in Europe and the USA, rather than the religious, economical and political complexity that comprises the conflict in the Middle East? Too bad you must remain anonymous, because I'd love to see you on CNN as one of the 'experts' on the Middle East conflict. You'd probably sound like a Christian preacher, with your "you all have blood on your hands" crap.

Yes . I even care as much about you .

Don't give us that "I love everyone" bullshit either. If you really cared deeply about the Palestinians, you wouldn't be on this forum. You'd be on a plane or meet up with local Palestianian refugees to discuss a strategy with them. Instead you're just like most of us here. Concerned, but not passionately concerned.