HPPD, anyone?

[mutant]

Oh yes, loudmouth or not, many people of you dismiss all these phenomenons because you worship your 'precious' plus you want to defend your use [reckless and stupid in many cases use, if you ask me].

Let me tell you about hppd, because you're in the dark, I suppose.. Fuck HPPD, fuck names.. get a grip, we're not talkin about names here but about common phenomenons..

The D in HPPD is for Disorder... Now note this...

Psychedelics DO enhance vision. They do. Actually they enhance everything! And boy, they change you. You are not the same person even after a single use. So , if you do a lot of them, your vision might 'alter' a bit. It's a given. It might occur. Many heavy users have them, but they don't admit easily.

But note this

this persistent visual phenomenons come as a disorder if the sufferer 'sees' them as such, if he's annoyed, if his life is becoming significantly worse because of this... these visuals while being sober might put predisposed to anxiety people into peing more anxious about what has happened.. it's natural, it's not some fucking myth, get over this!! but you know what? these cases never come as visions problem only... anxiety, depression, panic attacks, dp/dr [depersonalisation/derealisation] very often exist too...

read the fucking site to maybe get an idea of what HPPD is from the point of view of the 'sufferer' . Most of them have so serious symptoms that they never even smoke pot! Many of them had at least some mental 'issues' to start with, plus warning signs they dismissed. A lot of them used psychedelics abusively both in frequency of dosing and in the doses themselves.

And you know what??? don't fucking complain about names, labels, 'disorders' like dp/dr etc to me, geddit? I don't name these things. Others have described and given names to debiliating psychophenomenons. I never expereinced these things either. I voted 'No' ! But I read about them everywhere! I don't care how YOU see it, some people are actually not at all fond of the states they're in and feel sick.

many people fuck their heads with shitty use of drugs, why fucking deny that?? don't you understand most users [as most people anyway] are idiots?

Dismissing with such arrogance and hostility such casualties is childish, preoccupied, in the bottom line pathetic and mean... Let alone misinforming, dangerous, dogmatic and closeminded

At least show the honesty to admit only few are chosen, gifted, lucky. Most people are stupid and idiots and in the big picture I believe they're often victims of their own mistakes... but dont fucking blame it on a government conspiracy damn it!! are you dellusional or something? This is not just about 'HPPD' . There is such a thing as 'good' or 'bad' mental health, of course relative, not black&white. And Drugs can fuck that if the taker is and idiot or , hey, more sensitive... did this occur to you?? Or you're too much blurred from the 8-dimentional mechanical elf from outer space?

Why the fuck deny people can do damage to their brains if they fuck it up with any drug, including psychs?

YES, one of the possible symptoms of psychedelics misuse is Persisting Visial Phenomenons -

Fuck I would name it PVP. A symptom , not a disorder itself

 

[st.bot.32]

Oh yes, loudmouth or not, many people of you dismiss all these phenomenons because you worship your 'precious' plus you want to defend your use [reckless and stupid in many cases use, if you ask me].

quit being sophomoric. maybe the reason people don't agree with you is because some of us actually have researched the subject and come to our own conclusions. do some research, read the papers linked on wikipedia. read the dsm-iv. you can't go around randomly calling any problem that someone has after they take psychedelics hppd. it has very specific definitions

these cases never come as visions problem only... anxiety, depression, panic attacks, dp/dr [depersonalisation/derealisation] very often exist too... (snip) Many of them had at least some mental 'issues' to start with, plus warning signs they dismissed.

that's because.. it isn't HPPD! the above problems would disqualify them under the dsm-iv definition. they have other mental problems, perhaps triggered by psychedelic use

I don't care how YOU see it, some people are actually not at all fond of the states they're in and feel sick.

hence the importance of an accurate diagnosis of the problem. if someone has pains in their chest, it could be an infection, it could be indigestion, it could be a clot. it's important to know what it is. it isn't about feel-good definitions, it's about finding the real source of the problem. if someone has latent mental problems or some trauma surface due to a psychedelic trip, they need a doctor. if someone is psyching themselves out with normal visual phenomenon, they need a bit of reassurance

many people fuck their heads with shitty use of drugs, why fucking deny that??

don't know where you're getting that from, nobody has disagreed to anything of that sort, pretty much everyone to my knowledge agrees with you there

Or you're too much blurred from the 8-dimentional mechanical elf from outer space?

:roll:

anyway, i will simply restate what i said earlier, until people stop making useless self-diagnosis and until there is real research in the subject, we won't really know anything about it other than random anecdotes and small, incomplete bits of research.

 

[Forkbender]

that's because.. it isn't HPPD! the above problems would disqualify them under the dsm-iv definition. they have other mental problems, perhaps triggered by psychedelic use

That's precisely the whole point of this discussion, and it is part of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy I pointed to earlier. Just because you have used psychedelics prior to you noticing the phenomenon, doesn't mean it was caused by it and it doesn't mean they weren't there before.

 

[maxfreakout]

Just because you have used psychedelics prior to you noticing the phenomenon, doesn't mean it was caused by it and it doesn't mean they weren't there before.

This is a contradiction/confusion

the 'phenomenon' IS the 'noticing', they are not 2 separate things, they are 1 and the same thing. You take psychedelics, then after the trip has ended you notice persisting visual effects.

if it wasnt caused by the trip, then what did cause it?

You said earlier that you experienced persisting visual effects yourself after tripping, did this experience have any connection to the trip itself?

 

[GOD]

The one thing is the false diagnosis and false self diagnosis and the other is drug war war criminels like you saying that hallucinogens cause damage . Its not the drugs its you and your latent mental problems and mental weakness . Guns dont hurt anyone people do .

Prove that hallucinogens cause physical damage or cause mental problems or shut the fuck up with you fantasy storys and cowardly atempts to deny that you have mental problems . The way that you have been disshonest throughout the whole thread is a reflection of your swollen ego and your mental problems . You wont solve them untill you start being honest with yourself . Stop trying to run away from yourself .

 

[maxfreakout]

The one thing is the false diagnosis and false self diagnosis

I didn't diagnose myself with anything. I observed persisting visual effects after a trip, as did many of the posters on this thread. That isnt a 'diagnosis', it is an observation

saying that hallucinogens cause damage

hallucinogens do not cause any damage, i never said they did. They ENHANCE the mind, not damage it

Prove that hallucinogens cause physical damage

Hallucinogens do not cause physical damage (unless perhaps you get a papercut from an LSD tab)

or cause mental problems

In my experience, tripping caused lasting paranoia and anxiety. But this is not a straightforward case of 'drugs causing mental problems'. I look at it as being a natural part of the process of ego-transcendence, it can be problematic for the individual in exactly the same way that going through puberty as an adolescent can be problematic. Nobody would claim (about adolescence) that 'puberty causes mental problems', and similarly, i do not think it is legitimate to say that entheogens cause mental problems. What entheogens cause, fundamentally, is a maturation process, the shift to a more mature, logically sound mental worldmodel, to call this process 'mental problems' is grossly oversimplistic and is missing the point

atempts to deny that you have mental problems

I dont have mental problems in the sense that i live a very ordinary, productive life as a hardworking graduate student, and i dont suffer from any kind of mental discomfort

 

[GOD]

"ego-transcendence"

You obviously havent experienced that or you wouldnt talk so much shit and blame hallucinogens for your mental problems . Its your ego that doesnt allow you to be honest with yourself and that keeps you argueing yourself round and round in circles running away from yourself .

"puberty as an adolescent can be problematic"

Puberty happens you dont cause it . Drug problems like yours dont come from the drugs they come from you .

"i do not think it is legitimate to say that entheogens cause mental problems."

Thats exactly what you are doing , your saying that hallucinogens caused your mental problems ..

" What entheogens cause, fundamentally, is a maturation process"

No they dont . They can help if used correctly by people who understand themselves and what they are doing or people guided correctly .

" i dont suffer from any kind of mental discomfort"

Thats what youve been talking about throughout the whole thread , your mental problems . Both directly , and indirectly by your refusal to acept facts and by your own twisted , cowardly view of things . By your unwillingness to take responsibility for yourself .

 

[maxfreakout]

Puberty happens you dont cause it .

Same with ego-transcendence (in fact that's the whole point), they are both stages of maturation and they just 'happen'. A major difference between them is that everybody goes through puberty at a certain age, whereas only a minority of people transcend ego

your saying that hallucinogens caused your mental problems .

drugs can cause mental problems in the sense that it can be difficult to integrate the profound insights that they reveal, it can cause anxiety to come to terms with it, especially in the modern society with its complete lack of an appropriate context for psychedelics. But this is not a straightforward case of 'drugs causing mental problems'. The parallel with puberty illustrates this, puberty is a difficult experience (at least in some aspects) for most people, but nobody would claim that 'puberty causes mental problems'. Both puberty and psychedelic initiation are perfectly natural processes in life, but they are difficult and involve a large degree of emotional upheaval. And in both cases they are only temporary, you get through psychedelic initiation without harm, and emerge from it a fundamentally more mature person - just the same as puberty

They can help if used correctly by people who understand themselves and what they are doing or people guided correctly

help with what?

everybody who enters into psychedelic transformation/ego transcendence invariably does so with some degree of naivety and unpreparedness. No amount of 'guiding' or 'understanding' can fully prepare you for what happens

 

[GOD]

Bye bye mad-max .

 

[Forkbender]

You said earlier that you experienced persisting visual effects yourself after tripping, did this experience have any connection to the trip itself?

No, I could turn them on and off at will.

the 'phenomenon' IS the 'noticing', they are not 2 separate things, they are 1 and the same thing. You take psychedelics, then after the trip has ended you notice persisting visual effects.

And the cure is the noticing that your mind is playing tricks on you.

 

[endlessness]

the 'troubled puberty' is not a biological/natural phenomenon but a symptom of the western culture. The body and mind transformations during that age can be very harmoniously incorporated. The anthropologist Margaret Mead studied teenagers natives from places like Papua New Guinea and because of, amongst other things, the very distinct rites of passage, the young people peacefully dealt with their age and had no troubles from it.

this is also true in many indigenous cultures of the amazon too.


and max... I think the point you are not getting from other people is that you are judging a cause and effect (i.e. psychedelics cause hppd), from a positive relationship of some cases (after psychedelics happened, problems happened)

one obvious suggestion people are making is that possibly you had some sort of latent problem that came up with psychedelics, or bad set-setting also, and this linked with the natural 'becoming aware of normal visual distortions'.

hard psychedelic experiences can be like traumas, due to the intensity of the negative emotions. Like a vietnam veteran that constantly 'relives' the hard experiences, so where you. So its not psychedelics, its the strong emotion creating 'associative bonds' between different phenomenon (like the feeling and the senses).

 

[Forkbender]

Margaret Mead

unfortunately a few years after it turned out Maggy made it all up.

 

[GOD]

Sounds like mad-max to me .

 

[maxfreakout]

No, I could turn them on and off at will

that isnt what i'm asking

you said that you experienced these effects "after drugs wore off", and im asking if you think that the drug trip which preceeded the onset of these effects, had any connection to the onset of the effects? Or is it just entirely a coincidence that the effects only started after a trip had worn off?

And the cure is the noticing that your mind is playing tricks on you.

that doesnt make the effects stop, the only way to make the effects stop is to wait until they stop

 

[st.bot.32]

ever heard of the fable of the cricket and the scientist? it goes like this:

a scientist hypothesizes that crickets hear with their sixth leg. his experiment:

scientist pulls off leg #1. he claps his hand and the cricket jumps

scientist pulls off leg #2. he claps, the cricket jumps. he does this with legs 3,4,and 5. same result.

he pulls off leg #6 and claps his hand. the cricket doesn't jump. the scientist therefore concludes that crickets hear with their sixth leg.

the moral of this fable:

correlation does not imply causation! (sure, it may be part of the formula, but you have to consider all factors. otherwise you may be missing out on the real cause of the problem or phenomenon)

 

[restin]

rofl good one

 

[GOD]

Nice one , but even that was above mad-maxs head . Garanteed that he doesnt understand and keeps spouting endless shit .

 

[maxfreakout]

and max... I think the point you are not getting from other people is that you are judging a cause and effect (i.e. psychedelics cause hppd), from a positive relationship of some cases (after psychedelics happened, problems happened)

i already said earlier that i dont think there is any such thing as a 'cause', the connection between entheogens and their effects is not a 'causal' connection but rather a necessary and sufficient connection. The trip happens, and the visual effects from the trip persist beyond the end of the trip, that is not saying that the trip 'caused' the persisting visuals, but rather that the visual effects 'accompanied' the trip, and would not have happened if the trip hadnt happened.

one obvious suggestion people are making is that possibly you had some sort of latent problem that came up with psychedelics, or bad set-setting also, and this linked with the natural 'becoming aware of normal visual distortions'.

right but the fact remains that persisting visual effects are a very commonly experienced after a trip ends. Not just by me, but by many people. The 'latent problem' that everybody has, which is only revealed when they take entheogens, is the problem of a logically self-contradictory worldmodel.

hard psychedelic experiences can be like traumas, due to the intensity of the negative emotions. Like a vietnam veteran that constantly 'relives' the hard experiences, so where you. So its not psychedelics, its the strong emotion creating 'associative bonds' between different phenomenon (like the feeling and the senses).

absolutely, the mental trouble that results from an intense negative psychedelic experience is a form of post-traumatic stress, which is exactly what Vietnam (and now Iraq) veterans commonly experience, the trauma is repetitively relived (flashbacks) until it is systematically integrated into the person's worldmodel

BUT flashbacks from post-traumatic stress are a distinct phenomenon from persisting visual effects, they are often confused with each other, but they are separate things

 

[maxfreakout]

the moral of this fable:

correlation does not imply causation!

yes exactly, there are no 'causes', what is perceived to be a 'necessary cause' is in fact just a provisional 'habit' of the system. There is no 'glue' that links causes to their effects

 

[Forkbender]

No, I could turn them on and off at will

that isnt what i'm asking

you said that you experienced these effects "after drugs wore off", and im asking if you think that the drug trip which preceeded the onset of these effects, had any connection to the onset of the effects? Or is it just entirely a coincidence that the effects only started after a trip had worn off?

What I said was to show that I was making these effects myself. I had control over them, so I knew it was my own doing and wasn't a product of the trip I had a few months before.

And the cure is the noticing that your mind is playing tricks on you.

that doesnt make the effects stop, the only way to make the effects stop is to wait until they stop

It stopped them for me. If you believe that the symptoms can only stop after time, then that is the reality you create for yourself. I didn't believe in that, so I could just turn them off (or rather: I could turn of the thought pattern that created them) after I noticed I was creating all of these unnecessary visuals.