HPPD, anyone?

[Brugmansia]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_snow

Treatments
There currently is no established treatment for visual snow. In HPPD, clonazepam has been recommended as medication of first choice in patients seeking medical help.[4] Furthermore, drug abstinence is sometimes said to be of major therapeutic importance in HPPD. In persistent aura without infarction, the evidence so far suggests that acetazolamide may be the premier drug for patients with the repetitive form of aura status[5] and that valproate,[6] lamotrigine,[7] or topiramate[8] should be first choices for patients with the continuous form. When these oral drugs are ineffective, an intravenous injection or injections of furosemide should be tried.[9] However, with very little scientific research on the condition taking place, for the time being the effectiveness of such treatments remains based solely on anecdotal evidence. Beyond pharmacological approaches, appropriate counselling and cognitive behavioral interventions that focus on coping with the condition may be of huge importance.

 

[Forkbender]

Where did GOD deny anyone could have these visual effects? And for the drugs part, you're using a post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument, which is questionable to say the least.

"There is no common word to describe recurring visual effects..."

What about the term 'recurring visual effects' or 'persisting visual effects'? I imagine everyone would know what it meant and it has been clear for 7 pages now that not everybody knows what HPPD means when a random person says it. You mean something different by it than I do, for example. If you mean something different than the official definition of a word (HPPD in this case), why use that word? That is not only stupid, but plays into the hands of those people trying to ban drugs around the world, because from you admitting you had a mental disorder they can get their numbers that it is a BIG risk of taking drugs. At least two out of the four letters in HPPD are clearly wrong, so why use this term?

 

[GOD]

People should stop concentration on them , stop takeing them seriously and the ones with obvious mental problems like mad-max should go to a psychiatrist to treat the mental problems that he has told us he has .

 

[GOD]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palinopsia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floater

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entoptic_phenomenon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_field ... phenomenon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphene

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_cinema

 

[maxfreakout]

Where did GOD deny anyone could have these visual effects?

He didnt deny that people could have visual effects, but he denied in several places that they could be caused by drugs, for example here http://www.psychonaut.com/index.php?opt ... =en#152051

"Hallucinogens dont cause any of those things" - GOD

If you read the first reply to the original post on this thread, st.bot.32 said that every time he takes acid, he gets visual effects for a few days after each trip. Are you claiming that it is just a complete coincidence that he only gets these effects for a few days immediately after each acid trip? Are you saying that the acid trip cannot possibly be the cause? That is hardly different from saying that it is only a coincidence that people trip after they take acid. It definitely isnt a chemical cause, because acid is completely metabolised after about 4 hours of taking it, but it is undeniably connected with the trip

"There is no common word to describe recurring visual effects..."

What about the term 'recurring visual effects' or 'persisting visual effects'?

of course you can make a longwinded description like this ^to refer to it, but normally people just say 'HPPD' because that is the only short, convenient term to refer to persisting visual effects. When people say they have HPPD, they DO NOT mean that they have HPPD according to the full DSM definition, all they mean is that they experience persisting visual effects after a trip. It certainly can be legitimately called a disorder, because in some cases it can wreck a person's life, but far more often than that, it is not intense enough to really be called a 'disorder', but people use the term 'HPPD' because what they really mean is that they are experiencing persisting visual effects after a trip

You mean something different by it than I do

I have been absolutely, explicitly clear about what i mean when i say HPPD, i mean persisting visuals after a trip ends

for example. If you mean something different than the official definition of a word (HPPD in this case), why use that word?

i use that word because there is no other word to use (only longwinded descriptions which are tedious) so for convenience's sake, i just say 'HPPD' and i make absolutely sure to clarify exactly what i mean by that (which i have done many many times)

I dont think that DSM qualifies as an 'official definition', it is just the definition used by psychiatrists, i dont think psychiatrists are in charge of what is official and what isnt

The issue here isnt about whether 'HPPD' is a good thing to call it or not, i think we all agree that it isnt (not just because it isnt necessarily a disorder, but also because 'hallucinogen' is an inappropriate word for psychedelic/entheogen). The real issue, is what GOD denied, that tripping can cause lasting visual effects. And to a lesser extent, the issue is whether HPPD can ever be a disorder, HPPD certainly can be a disorder, if it wrecks a person's life, which it can do in some relatively rare circumstances

plays into the hands of those people trying to ban drugs around the world

we need to be honest about what these drugs can do, rather thajn lying about what they can do. And it is entirely honest to say that psychedelics can cause lasting visual effects, which can sometimes be extremely distressing, and last for years. having a conversation on psychonaut.com has nothing whatsoever to do with the global war on drugs

At least two out of the four letters in HPPD are clearly wrong, so why use this term?

i agree that 2 of the letters are wrong, but there is no other accepted, convenient term to use to describe the condition, so we say HPPD and explain what we mean by it

 

[maxfreakout]

People should stop concentration on them , stop takeing them seriously

Im not so sure about that, they ARE serious, they are saying something very important about the world

mad-max should go to a psychiatrist to treat the mental problems that he has told us he has .

I dont have mental problems and i never said i did


I am utterly insane :evil: (just like everybody) but i dont have mental 'problems', my mental health is optimal (thanks to the drugs )

 

[maxfreakout]

Anyone any solution to get rid of these persisting visual effects?

PVE?

I think that TIME is the only solution for PVE, sometimes unfortunately lots and lots of it is required. Whatever you do, dont go and see a psychiatrist because they don't know shit, they will just fill you full of drugs which only makes things worse. Having intense, long-lasting PVE is a very difficult situation in this society

 

[Forkbender]

He didnt deny that people could have visual effects, but he denied in several places that they could be caused by drugs, for example here http://www.psychonaut.com/index.php?opt ... =en#152051

"Hallucinogens dont cause any of those things" - GOD

If you read the first reply to the original post on this thread, st.bot.32 said that every time he takes acid, he gets visual effects for a few days after each trip. Are you claiming that it is just a complete coincidence that he only gets these effects for a few days immediately after each acid trip? Are you saying that the acid trip cannot possibly be the cause? That is little different from saying that it is only a coincidence that people trip after they take acid. It definitely isnt a chemical cause, because acid is completely metabolised after about 4 hours of taking it, but it is undeniably connected with the trip

I already addressed that in my last post:

And for the drugs part, you're using a post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument, which is questionable to say the least.

You quoted this from wiki before:

The cause(s) of HPPD are not yet known. It is very clear that most hallucinogen users do not develop HPPD. This suggests there may be unknown factors that make a small subset of individuals vulnerable. It is possible that HPPD may have both neurological and psychological components with the contributions of both aspects varying from case to case. The most current reseach indicates that HPPD symptoms are caused by abnormalities in CNS function and have no retinal origin.

Abnormalities in central nervous system functioning have NEVER been causally linked to psychedelics in any peer reviewed double blind research.

I had RVE's (see, it is easy to introduce a word, you now know what I mean by that), I didn't have HPPD. I think you can call it what you like, but I'm going to disagree with you as long as you cannot explain why you use that term. Social conventions are, for me at least, no reason to twist words. I am not calling myself mentally ill because I had some (albeit minor) visual effects after drugs wore off.

 

[Forkbender]

I dont have mental problems and i never said i did

You claim to have had HPPD, which is a mental disorder.

Easy shot, but don't expect any better from someone who doesn't know jack from psychedelics.

 

[misfit]

If you mean something different than the official definition of a word (HPPD in this case), why use that word?

+1

but there is no other accepted, convenient term to use to describe the condition, so we say HPPD and explain what we mean by it

Accepted? :|

 

[st.bot.32]

in my case, i would simply call it "afterglow", a term widely accepted in the psychedelic community. hppd is a long-term disorder lasting months to years, after drug use stops. the gift of being in touch with my senses and imagination during the afterglow is s part of WHY i take psychedelics, that's what it is all about. in part, learning how to get there-without psychedelics!

if someone was experiencing persisting bothersome visual effects all the time, months after the last time they took psychedelics AND cannabis, and it's clear they weren't just psyching themselves out with normal everyday visual phenomenon, i would recommend they see a doctor. not as an insult, but seriously, because quite frequently people who think they have hppd turn out to have other, more serious problems, and either way, it would be interfering with their ability to live and enjoy life

if someone is experiencing problems such as depersonalization, long term depression after taking psychedelics, that is also a real problem, but something else

 

[maxfreakout]

You claim to have had HPPD

yes several years ago, not now, and it was a disorder, it fucked my life up big time - THEREFORE HPPD EXISTS!!!!!

which is a mental disorder.

As we have discussed at great length, persisting visuals isnt *necessarily* a disorder, it only becomes a disorder if it disrupts a person's life

 

[maxfreakout]

I already addressed that in my last post:

And for the drugs part, you're using a post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument, which is questionable to say the least.

You quoted this from wiki before:

The cause(s) of HPPD are not yet known. It is very clear that most hallucinogen users do not develop HPPD. This suggests there may be unknown factors that make a small subset of individuals vulnerable. It is possible that HPPD may have both neurological and psychological components with the contributions of both aspects varying from case to case. The most current reseach indicates that HPPD symptoms are caused by abnormalities in CNS function and have no retinal origin.

Abnormalities in central nervous system functioning have NEVER been causally linked to psychedelics in any peer reviewed double blind research.

the fact is, that the visual effects accompany psychedelic trips, are you saying that this is purely a coincidence, and that the cause has nothing to do with the drugs?

I had RVE's (see, it is easy to introduce a word, you now know what I mean by that), I didn't have HPPD. I think you can call it what you like, but I'm going to disagree with you as long as you cannot explain why you use that term. Social conventions are, for me at least, no reason to twist words. I am not calling myself mentally ill because I had some (albeit minor) visual effects after drugs wore off.

it is not easy to introduce a word, nobody else would know what you mean by 'RVE'. I already explained why i use the term, because it is widely known and accepted

did your RVE have anything to do with the drugs?

 

[GOD]

""Hallucinogens dont cause any of those things" - GOD "

I said hallucinogens dont cause physical damage or mental illness , and that they dont cause the effects you are talking about . I said that after taking them one can be aware of those effects .

"Are you claiming that it is just a complete coincidence that he only gets these effects for a few days immediately after each acid trip?"

If you had read what people had said and were intellectualiy in the position to understand what you had read you wouldnt talk so much confused shit . It has been said over and over that visual effects exist , and that after a trip = a mind / sensual expanding experience that people are aware of things that they had had before but didnt notice .

"because acid is completely metabolised after about 4 hours of taking it, but it is undeniably connected with the trip "

So your talking about physical damage or mental problems as in "Disorder" . Your just to wain and dishonest to admit that the mental problems that you have told us you have could be conected to you seeing things . That your problems could come from latent mental problems that you have coming out because of you abuseing drugs .

"GOD denied, that tripping can cause lasting visual effects. "

It doesnt cause them , it can make one aware of them or as in your case abuseing hallucinogens can help uncover and worsen existing mental problems .

"we need to be honest about what these drugs can do"

We dont . You do . Hallucinogens dont cause physical damage or cause mental illness .

" having a conversation on psychonaut.com has nothing whatsoever to do with the global war on drugs "

Spreading dishonest anti drug propoganda like you do in the internet helps the global war on drugs .

"I dont have mental problems and i never said i did "

Liar .

 

[st.bot.32]

yes several years ago, not now, and it was a disorder, it fucked my life up big time - THEREFORE HPPD EXISTS!!!!!

see, now we are getting to the heart of your argument. debilitating everyday visual phenomenon interfering with your life, reoccuring for a long period after taking psychedelics. (and i do believe flaming is uncalled for here)

so this is why we have to be absolutely clear on the meaning. spreading incorrect definitions only confuses the issue. you can't sacrifice accuracy for convenience.

afterglow /= hppd

being more aware of your senses /= hppd

staring at objects and trancing yourself out till they move or shimmer or change color /= hppd

smoking cannabis everyday and seeing visual effects /= hppd, if anything == duh no shit

latent mental problems coming to the surface, temporal lobe epilepsy, schizophrenia /= hppd

when all of the above are discounted, and its been a long time since you took psychedelics/drugs and you are experiencing disruptive visual effects, it's time to see a doctor and get a diagnosis and find out what the problem is. until more people start doing this, we won't know jack or have any concrete info on hppd other than a handful of anecdotes, incomplete research and a confused webforum on hppd that claims cannabis isn't a hallucinogen

 

[Meduzz]

rayer: insane post!

 

[maxfreakout]

I said hallucinogens dont cause physical damage or mental illness

And i agreed with you, HPPD/RVE/PPP or whatever you want to call it has nothing to do with physical damage or mental illness

and that they dont cause the effects you are talking about . I said that after taking them one can be aware of those effects

The 'effects' I am talking about IS the awareness! The 'effect' and the 'awareness of the effect' are not 2 separate things. Psychedelics cause the visual effects which is the same as saying that they cause awareness of the visual effects. When i look at my carpet now, it stays still, when i used to have HPPD and look at my carpet, it would be dancing around

It has been said over and over that visual effects exist , and that after a trip = a mind / sensual expanding experience that people are aware of things that they had had before but didnt notice .

the effect was not there before, even when i look very carefully at my carpet now, it does not dance around, HPPD/RVE is a distinct condition from ordinary visual perception

So your talking about physical damage or mental problems as in "Disorder"

no im talking about persisting visual effects. It is only a disorder if it causes problems for the person, which it can do in some cases

It doesnt cause them , it can make one aware of them

that ^ is a contradiction/confusion - the thing that is caused IS the awareness of the visual effects

Hallucinogens dont cause physical damage

i agree (well unless a tonne of mushrooms drops onto your head from a tall building), but they DO cause persisting visual effects

or cause mental illness

they can, in some cases, cause lasting psychiatric problems, but this is rare and certainly not straightforward

 

[GOD]

"they can, in some cases, cause lasting psychiatric problems"

Prove it .

 

[maxfreakout]

i spent about 6 months an anxious, paranoid wreck after a particularly intense trip

 

[GOD]

"i spent about 6 months an anxious, paranoid wreck after a particularly intense trip"

That doesnt prove it but it does prove that you have mental problems . Blaming drugs for your mental problems isnt going to help you solve the issues you have told us several times that you had / have . Denyal and running away from yourself will probably only make them worse .