HPPD, anyone?

[GOD]

Well said . But garanteed he will just answer with more confused blah , blah , blah .

 

[maxfreakout]

It doesn't according to the DSM definition. The DSM is a very precise book with precise rules. If there would be a time limit to the onset it would have been in there, just like in medical books, for example in cases of allergy reactions which have to occur after intake of a certain substance within x minutes/hours.

There is no 'time limit' to the onset, in my experience it was immediate, and as far as i know this is generally the case, but the DSM says nothing on the subject, it just doesnt mention it at all

in which case, it is a different condition from the one that this thread is about, although it may well be related

There is no proof for that and you know it, so stop insisting on it.

it is contained in the definition (so the proof is simply the definition), the condition that this thread is about, is the condition of persisting visuals following psychedelic use, NOT just any kind of visual distortion

But it takes an enormous leap of the imagination to say that they would have occured, at the same point in the person's life, even if they hadnt taken drugs at that specific point

Not if taking entheogens is one of the symptoms of a person who is prone to experience these kinds of phenomena.

But the point is, in every case of this condition, the onset of the condition only follows after the entheogen trip finishes, that is what makes it 'HPPD/RVE' (or whetever you want to call it) and not something else. Entheogen use could exacerbate a pre-existing visual condition, but in that case it is not 'entirely' HPPD, but rather a combination of HPPD with whatever the person was experiencing before

It isnt *just* the similarity that causes people to make this link, but also the fact that the visual effects start when the trip ends, and were not there before

As said before, this isn't a necessary condition for HPPD. Maybe it is in your definition of it, but we are not talking your definition, we are talking the general definition.

I am talking about the general definition, which describes the general phenomenon itself

If the habit of trying entheogens is symptomatic as well for people who are prone to experience these phenomena, then there is no possible way to link the two either. I think this is the case.

in either case, the link cannot be proven, but to say that there is no link at all, is to claim that every time a case of HPPD begins to occur, the temporal link with entheogens is purely a coincidence, which is an enormous leap of imagination, and it is far more plausible to admit that there probably IS a link, rather than denying a link for no reason (why are you denying that there could possibly be a link?)

This correlation seems to be your ace of spades here, but it isn't a necessary condition for HPPD

yes it is, taking entheogens is a necessary condition of having a condition which is described as 'persisting visual effects following after taking entheogens'

and correlation can never imply an influence.

i agree, but if you follow this argument through, you have to acknowledge that the fact that taking LSD is always correlated with having an LSD trip, does not imply that LSD is the cause of an LSD trip

Both the taking of entheogens and the visual effects can be symptoms of something else.

that doesnt make sense, the 'taking of entheogens' is a not a 'symptom' of anything, you take entheogens because you choose to take entheogens, not because some mental condition forced you to take them

These are the two major prerequisites of the official DSM-HPPD, so why not call them symptoms instead of forcing this link on us? And how can the drugs influence the visual effects? How do you explain that without a causal relation?

you cannot call 'taking entheogens' a 'symptom' of something, i take LSd because i want to experience it, not because i am suffering from some psychiatric condition that forces me to take LSd against my will.

You can posit a causal relation between taking LSd and having HPPD if you want to, but in ANY case of positing a causal relation between 2 events, you are going beyond the evidence. What you observe, is not a causal link, but rather a correlation

 

[GOD]

See , he just proved it again , again , again .

 

[maxfreakout]

You (who had an experience) cannot deduce from your own experience that this experience was a) caused by the entheogens

i have said many times, that i am not implying any 'causal' link

on the other hand, i CAN deduce that it was directly correlated with entheogen use

b) HPPD

i call it HPPD, because i am defining HPPD as 'persisting visual effects following entheogen use', and that is exactly what i experienced. I am not talking about the term 'HPPD', but rather about the condition that it refers to according to the definition i am using. I use the term 'HPPD' just because there is no other widely accepted term to use. The importnat thing is not my choice of term, but rather my choice of definition, which is 'persisting visual effect following entheogen use'

c) dissimilar from the experience people had who didn't take drugs.

it may not be phenomoenologically dissimilar, but it is dissimilar in the sense that what i experienced, directly followed my drug use

 

[misfit]

We all have freedom of choice on our lifes. More or less, depending on the matter.

People have their own experiences and create their own view about their own experiences.

People can share their experiences and opinions. And also hear and absorb, with an open-mind, other peoples experiences and opinions. And, therefore, maybe learn something.

 

[maxfreakout]

We all have freedom of choice on our lifes. More or less, depending on the matter.

People have their own experiences and create their own view about their own experiences.

People can share their experiences and opinions. And also hear and absorb, with an open-mind, other peoples experiences and opinions. And, therefore, maybe learn something.

i agree, which is why i pointed out that people who have never experienced HPPD, are in no position to know whether or not it exists

the only people on this thread who are saying that HPPD doesnt exist, are just people who have not experienced it themselves. Nobody who had experienced it would ever say that it didnt exist, as this thread demonstrates

 

[misfit]

HPPD is a label. It's language, and it doesn't mean anything. It's a generalisation.

Focus on the experience itself, and move up.
Each case, is a case.

What have you Really experienced? What you felt about it? What have you learned about it? What impact had in your life? What you felt when it was over? What did you felt when you woke up each morning? What's your advice to people that have similar persisting visual effects following entheogen use?
What you think it may cause that? How your view about entheogen use changed, if it changed at all?

 

[Forkbender]

This correlation seems to be your ace of spades here, but it isn't a necessary condition for HPPD

yes it is, taking entheogens is a necessary condition of having a condition which is described as 'persisting visual effects following after taking entheogens'

HPPD is described in DSM as persisting effects after you stop using hallucinogens. I was talking about the correlation between the ending of the trip and the beginning of the symptoms, this is not a necessary condition of HPPD.

You define HPPD in your own private way and then say because that is the definition that you are right. Grow up. If you don't want to communicate but just want to put your confused ideas out into the world, why don't you write a book like a normal schizo?

 

[maxfreakout]

HPPD is described in DSM as persisting effects after you stop using hallucinogens.

yes, in other words, persisting effects following the end of a trip, which is the definition i have been using

I was talking about the correlation between the ending of the trip and the beginning of the symptoms, this is not a necessary condition of HPPD.

yes it is, HPPD is when the visual effects of a trip dont stop, even after the trip has ended, in other words, persisting visual effects following the end of a trip, this is the correlation i am talking about. In that specific sense, the definition i am using is the same as the DSM definition

You define HPPD in your own private way

there is nothing 'private' about it, i have been saying the same definition over and over again on this public forum, and it is the same definition that everyone has been using

and then say because that is the definition that you are right.

i am saying that that is what HPPD is, it is when you take a psychedelic trip, and the visual effects continue beyond the end of the trip, there is no other definition. The DSM definiton makes furthewr conditions, because DSM is only concerned with the pathological, psychiatric aspect of HPPD, whereas i am JUST talking about persisting visuals, whether they are pathological or not (they can be, when they are particularly intense, but in general they are not)

 

[maxfreakout]

HPPD is a label. It's language, and it doesn't mean anything. It's a generalisation.

i have said that many times on this thread, it ISNT the term itself that is important, rather it is the condition that it refers to that is the important issue

Focus on the experience itself, and move up.

exactly, arguing around and around in circles that HPPD doesnt exist, in the face of all the evidence that it does exist, is simply pointless and it stops people from talking abut the really important aspect of HPPD, which is its philosophical implications

What have you Really experienced? What you felt about it? What have you learned about it? What impact had in your life? What you felt when it was over? What did you felt when you woke up each morning? What's your advice to people that have similar persisting visual effects following entheogen use?
What you think it may cause that? How your view about entheogen use changed, if it changed at all?

Beautiful 8) when people stop arguing pointl;essly about whether it exists or not, maybe then we can move on and discuss these questions which are actually important and interesting

 

[misfit]

I haven't said that it exists. I said it's meaningless. Because it's a generalisation.
Each case is a case.
And I think it's unhealthy, for you, to analise your experiences based on precocious definitions about something that no one knows what it is, and why it is.


Exactly. So I, and I think I speak not only for myself here, start moving up and specify the whole condition that you went through. (my questions were only to shake a little on what you might contribute to the people that are interested on what you might have to say about the Experience. And not HPPD)

 

[Forkbender]

You are not only confused, you are just plain ignorant and just repeat yourself instead of listening to others. I think you should learn how to have a conversation without having the feeling someone is stepping on your dick all the time. Maybe conversation training is something for you.

yes, in other words, persisting effects following the end of a trip, which is the definition i have been using

It doesn't say that. Read it for yourself. I have a Dutch copy here with me and I know what it says. It says something about "experiencing again, after the use of hallucinogens has stopped, of some of the visual symptoms encountered while under the intoxication." There is a clear distinction between HPPD and the trip itself and it says nowhere, that this experiencing again should occur right after the trip. How do you know the trip ended and you had HPPD if it just went on?

yes it is, HPPD is when the visual effects of a trip dont stop, even after the trip has ended, in other words, persisting visual effects following the end of a trip, this is the correlation i am talking about. In that specific sense, the definition i am using is the same as the DSM definition

No, it is not. They are not called 'Flashbacks' (in quotes, after the title HPPD) for nothing. The correlation is nowhere to be found in DSM, give a quote to prove otherwise or stop saying it does.

there is nothing 'private' about it, i have been saying the same definition over and over again on this public forum, and it is the same definition that everyone has been using

It is private in the sense that you define it by taking your own personal experience and saying: that was HPPD, so therefore HPPD is x. Your definition differs hugely from the general definition and apart from you, I have seen no one who said that what you called HPPD was what they experienced and what they called HPPD. I have not used your definition and I will not, because I have already pointed out its fallacy and you haven't been able to change my mind, because you just rehash your own private definition to prove something in a very unoriginal way.

This is your argument about the existance of HPPD:
I had sex with at least 20 women today.
Sex is when you say hello to a woman.

You say you had HPPD.
HPPD is what you say it is, which differs from every single official definition.

And you conclude that therefore HPPD is real.

Can I say that I had real sex with 20 women today? According to you, I can if I continuously define sex with saying hello to a woman. It is really embarassing, I know, but you can still admit you didn't see the whole picture and we can call this whole thing off.

 

[Forkbender]

What have you Really experienced? What you felt about it? What have you learned about it? What impact had in your life? What you felt when it was over? What did you felt when you woke up each morning? What's your advice to people that have similar persisting visual effects following entheogen use?
What you think it may cause that? How your view about entheogen use changed, if it changed at all?

Beautiful 8) when people stop arguing pointl;essly about whether it exists or not, maybe then we can move on and discuss these questions which are actually important and interesting

So why don't you stop arguing pointlessly and answer these simple questions?

 

[mutant]

So now you are actually interested in the DSM??

Forkbender you are an intelligent man. Please don't get all sophistic to me.. I know you wouldn't agree with the whole concept of american and european psychiatry and these shitty definitions...

Fuck the labels, fuck the shrinks who wanna dope you on some sedative. but several guys in the HPPDFORUM are diagnosed HPPD anyway... but who gives a fuck... what does it matter if it's official or not, we're not just talking about hppd.. I told this before... look at my previous post at page #9

So fuck HPPD, because I don't care to defend the term anyway.. and , in any case, most users report that the effects that annoy them the most isn't actually the visuals, but the anxity and the other shit.. so I regard PVs [Persistent Visuals] just one equation, one parameter of the whole thing of 'what can go wrong with psychs' .

Who is fucking being sophomoric? You never answered to all of my points about your whole attitude to the subect... You keep debating with max... easier target , huh??

What's the big difference if the 'situation' was there hidden and revealed from the drugs if you don't know it in the first place?? Most people don't know it, you know, or try to forget it so as to eat more psychs without guilt... Go on look it from other points of view, like your 'precious' has taught you people!

And yeah, some people have HPPD-like symptoms occasionally from little childern, without drugs.. I believe those are more prone to permanent visual alterations [PVA - another nice abbreviation ] - so, what does this mean? that you can NOT prove that it's caused by classic psychs, mj and other substances? That's bullshit... Any of those who clearly have it has used those drugs , and heavily most of the times...

That's the point

all the other are peripheral, and sophistic arguements about naming and defining things.. Myself I am a George Carlin guy, so don't don't try these with me. I've got my language figured out. Speak about the point I raise, or else ignore, like you did before

 

[maxfreakout]

It says something about "experiencing again, after the use of hallucinogens has stopped, of some of the visual symptoms encountered while under the intoxication."

yes exactly, as i have been saying - persisting visual effects following the end of a trip. In that sense the DSM definition is the same as the one i am using

There is a clear distinction between HPPD and the trip itself

yes because HPPD only starts after the trip has finished

and it says nowhere, that this experiencing again should occur right after the trip.

yes as i already stated several times, the DSM defiition doesnt say anything about this at all, it simply isnt mentioned. But in general, the effects of HPPD are continuous with the trip itself, it is as if the trip never really ended

How do you know the trip ended and you had HPPD if it just went on?

Trips end after a certain amount of time, LSD lasts about 12 hours, shrooms about 5 hours etc. But the effects of HPPD last much longer than this, they can go on for years in some cases. But the important point is, the effects of HPPD are continuous with the trip, they begin as soon as the trip ends, it is as if the trip never really ended, but the intensity of HPPD is much less than the intensity of the trip itself, HPPD is like a constant, ongoing, low-intensity trip

No, it is not. They are not called 'Flashbacks' (in quotes, after the title HPPD) for nothing.

No 'flashbacks' are a completely distinct phenomenon from HPPD, a flashback is a very shortlasting experience, which sometimes just seems to come out of nowhere, it only lasts for a few seconds. Flashbacks are very different from HPPD.

The correlation is nowhere to be found in DSM

the correlation between hallucinogen use and the persisting visual effects is given in DSM as the 'H' of HPPD - it stands for 'hallucinogen' ie 'hallucinogen-correlated'

It is private in the sense that you define it by taking your own personal experience and saying: that was HPPD, so therefore HPPD is x.

my experience, and the experiences of everybody else who ever had HPPD

Your definition differs hugely from the general definition and apart from you, I have seen no one who said that what you called HPPD was what they experienced and what they called HPPD.

no my definition is exactly the same as everybody else's, i am simply staing what HPPD is, what other definitions are you talking about? there arent any, HPPD is persisting visual effects following hallucinogen use, it is Hallucinogen-Perception-Persisting-Disorder

I have not used your definition and I will not

which definition are you using?

You say you had HPPD.
HPPD is what you say it is, which differs from every single official definition

there is only one definition of HPPD, persting visual effects following hallucinogen use, the definition is contained in the name 'HPPD', this is the definition i am using, what other definitions are there?

And you conclude that therefore HPPD is real.

it is real just in the sense that lots of people experience it, it is fairly common among psychonauts, as the poll results on this thread demonstrate

 

[maxfreakout]

I haven't said that it exists.

'existing' is apointless category to put HPPd into, what should be said, is not that HPPD 'exists', but rather that people experience it. The problem on this thread is that a small number of people who havent experienced it, are insisting that nobody else has experienced it either

start moving up and specify the whole condition that you went through. (my questions were only to shake a little on what you might contribute to the people that are interested on what you might have to say about the Experience.

i attempted to do that on this thread:
http://www.psychonaut.com/index.php?opt ... =0&lang=en

but then GOD starting jumping all over it saying "HPPD doesnt exist!" repeatedly and ruined the whole conversation, so it seems it is important to establish that HPPD is real, even to the people who havent experienced it, before you can start having a deeper conversation about the metaphysical implications of HPPD. And that is what i am doing on this thread

 

[Forkbender]

max, it is really pathetic how you twist everything that is said to you. You misinterpret everything I and some others have said here to fit your own garbled view of reality and you only strengthen that view with every critique. It is time for you to look in the mirror and see what is really there, not the things you take for granted. Let go off all this nonsense and start living a real life.

I'm not saying this as an attack, but out of concern, I have had interesting discussions with you lately and it was a lot of fun, a challenge at times and I learned a lot, but I keep bumping into the same problem again, because you only read what you want to read and have a filter on the information coming to you. I didn't deny your experience and I think you are intelligent enough to talk about it in a way that a lot of people understand, but you are a bit too stuck in your own limited viewpoint, unwilling to accept the idea of you being wrong (and you are even willing to deny the existance of right and wrong to escape it).

Enjoy the feeling of being right while you can. I will definitely enjoy the feeling of being wrong once you show me that you can actually understand another point of view.

As for now, I'm gonna stick to that ancient adage:

Don't argue with the drunk or the insane.

 

[Shamanita]

Well Fork, actually you have also a filter of information, you also read what you want to read, you also believe want to believe, ...

 

[toogoodforyou]

What have you Really experienced? What you felt about it? What have you learned about it? What impact had in your life? What you felt when it was over? What did you felt when you woke up each morning? What's your advice to people that have similar persisting visual effects following entheogen use?
What you think it may cause that? How your view about entheogen use changed, if it changed at all?

Call it HPPD or call it temporary visuals or any shit. But yep, the answers to those Questions are what we would all like to know.

 

[GOD]

Misfit go and see a psychiatrist you are more than confused .

Shamanita if you have nothing constructive to say dont say it , your comment was dumb .

I totaly agree with Fork .

Mad-max has made unfounded and unproved statements and then kept denying it and changeing his stand point . Just argueing for argueings sake and is obviously not capable of admiting when he is wrong .