Why we trip-What is a Bad trip-How to avoid them.In theory..

[zezt]

Thanks all. Can I ask all of you what kinds of drugs you prefer and how often you use them? Does tripping too often lead to bad trips?


zezt: Pretty intense. Did the experience bother you afterwards (except for the regret)? And did you move on to some other form of tripping (non-recreational) at a later time?

The experience freaked me out so much that it kind of made me fear tripping with eyes shut, and I think I also put blocks up to inner visions.
But I wrote about it for a dissertation in artschool, and it really inspired me in lots of ways regarding books I got, and my ideas for art etc.

I meant to add something also. Those little beings I saw. Several years later, I happened to read the Psychedelic Review--a book, and in it there is this article about the Mazatec Indians and how they call the mushroom spirits 'the duende' which has been translated into English as 'supernatural dwarves'!

What is interesting also is that there is a word used in Andalusian Flamenco music called 'Duende' and there are several meanings, eg describing the sacred fusion the guitarist, singer, and dancer can have when perfoming Flamenco, but also there is a meaning of the 'spirits of the Earth' and/or fairies. So there is some deep connection there, between Flamenco, the Mazatec Indians, and magic mushrooms (and other psychedelics), and ecstasy!

I am now over that fear, but there must always be awe. Ecstasy is very alive, and awesome, and wild, and cannot be tamed.

I prefer magic mushrooms. They are common where I live and easy to find and pick. I have trouble with 'recreational' tripping being put down, even after that. it is complex. On one hand it is very beneficial to have support for going through difficult experience, but tripping when done with respect is always surprising and can give deep insights regardless.
The therapeutic insistence seems to be 'going inward', but I have had great insights 'going outward'--even watching TV.

This reminds me. I was sober, but this morning I had a deep experience. I crossed a road to go for a walk in a park, and there were cars and all the noise etc, but I felt my inner being was connected with everyone elses, including the inner being of all nature, and how it is beyond space and time, and how inner and outer are a dyanmic interwoven process. Later I was thinking how tptb try to divide and control us by making inner and outer seem at odds, and even denying the inner feelings of the individual all life

 

[Abej^a G.]

Thanks all. Can I ask all of you what kinds of drugs you prefer and how often you use them? Does tripping too often lead to bad trips?

Abeja: So if I understand you right you mostly have entheogen sessions on your own, and prepare for them with ritual actions including prayer and mantra? And this is something you learnt on this forum after you started doing entheogenic drugs?

I prefer Ayahuasca. and Kambo. without forgetting psilocybin, lsa.. with the teacher San Pedro we are in the first few approaches

I do not use them with a constant, I use them when I want to feel the experience (or when the economic availability permits), or when the experience find me... if I use them I do it with a clear objective, which it is dependent on the occasions, we say that can be generalized, saying "learning to feel good and consciously".
is like to climb the mountain or to contemplate heaven, and there you have the wisdom of the universe before the eyes... for example, in India there are those who practice tantra under the influence of cannabis..

entheogens are like dreams..


we have to find the right balance, I don't know what you mean by "too often", but if the heart demands it... if a person trying to have a psychedelic experience with me, the first thing I would ask is the reason that leads him to try


yes, in recent years these experiences captain in two cases: in rave party, dancing and dancing, or by myself.
Yes, I learned prayer, mantra (but mantra is my mantra), 5 Tibetans, how to do a preparation and diet for the ceremony... thank's to this forum, thank's to my searching and those of my companions, thank's to the feeling. the feeling is the kay.

 

[Sludge]

Sludge: What you are saying sounds very reasonable, but it mostly deals with getting the right setting. How do you get yourself in the mood for a trip? (Or does it just happen automatically?) And do you always trip in the company of other people?

Sometimes I trip alone. I did that a lot in the beginning. Getting yourself in the good mood ? Well if you're tripping in a party, to be with the right people is essential. Wherever you do it, being well rested before the trip is needed, you can't have a good trip if you're really tired after a day of work. Having a good meal during the day (but not just before the trip if it's mushrooms, cacti or other things that rumble your stomach and need an empty one to fully work) is good. Also, if you're not feeling it, you can do it another day. Also, you can write on a paper some advices in case you're freaking out, like "what you're experiencing is normal, you're on drugs, it will pass with time" or "accept the experience and the feelings". It's important to remember that it's normal to fear, but to not let it run you. You could fear to die or to go crazy, but it's just that you're tripping. Just let go. Let the fear pass and be open and loving.

If you experienced very bad things recently (broke up with someone, lost a friend or a family member), you should trip later.

Also, prepare what you will need before the trip, like the music you want, the food you could need (avoid cooking or doing risky things when you're high). Turning of the phone and all communications devices or software could be nice to avoid being called by your parents or boss.

But if you're doings things right, most of theses advices won't be necessary. Just try a low dose to begin.

My favourite drug is LSD. I think it's great to dance on a psychedelic party or to walk or chill in nature.

 

[zezt]

entheogens are like dreams..

Xochipilli /ʃu˕ːt͡ʃiˈpiɬːi/ was the god of art, games, beauty, dance, flowers, and song in Aztec mythology. His name contains the Nahuatl words xochitl ("flower") and pilli (either "prince" or "child"), and hence means "flower prince". As the patron of writing and painting, he was called Chicomexochitl the "Seven-flower", but he could also be referred to as Macuilxochitl "Five-flower". His wife was the human girl Mayahuel[SUP][citation needed][/SUP], and his twin sister was Xochiquetzal. As one of the gods responsible for fertility and agricultural produce, he was also associated with Tlaloc (god of rain), and Cinteotl (god of maize).[SUP][citation needed][/SUP] Xochipilli corresponds to the Tonsured Maize God among the Classic Mayas.

Xochipilli was also the patron of both homosexuals and male prostitutes, a role possibly resulting from his being absorbed from the Toltec civilisation[SUP][1][/SUP] He among other gods was depicted wearing a talisman known as an oyohualli which was a pendant shaped as a teardrop crafted out of mother-of-pearl.[SUP][2][/SUP]

...

[h=3]Entheogen connection[/h] It has been suggested by Wasson, Schultes, and Hofmann that the statue of Xochipilli represents a figure in the throes of entheogenic ecstasy. The position and expression of the body, in combination with the very clear representations of hallucinogenic plants which are known to have been used in sacred contexts by the Aztec support this interpretation.

Wasson says " He is absorbed in temicxoch, 'the flowery dream' , as the Nahua say in describing the awesome experience that follows the ingestion of Sinicuichi (Heimia salicifolia). I can think of nothing like it in the long and rich history of European art."[SUP][3][/SUP]

source

 

[Finarfin]

Intressting and very recognizable trip story zezt.
Also good record choice: oxygen by jean micheal jarre. And dr john the nighttripper... true classics.

 

[Finarfin]

How to get into the mood for psychedelic exploration?
I do not know. I ussualy plan my sessions in advance. I just pick a day and make sure i am free and got nothing else to do that day (and also the next day).

The best mood for psychedelic exploration i think is to be relaxed and to have a clear mind. Make sure you do not have all kinds of worries on your mind. Also make sure that your surroundings reflects this calm state of mind. So not only clean out the junk in your head also clean the junk in the room you want to have your session. (If you want to trip inside)

What else can you do to get in the mood?
Go take a long walk or ride your bike. Walking or cycling can be very relaxing.
If you have a boat you may agree that being on the water can be very relaxing.
If you don, t want to get outside (because the weather)
Do something relaxing inside. Take a bath or shower. Read a book. Watch a nature documentary or watch a good comedy,or a psychedelic movie or whatever.

If you are going to do your journey with another person make sure you realy trust each other. THIS IS MOST IMPORTANT.... do not make the mistake of tripping with someone you do not trust. Let there be absolutly no doubt about this.

 

[sellahremy]

This is a Terrence Mckenna video that will teach you how to avoid a bad trip

[YOUTUBE]

 

[Whyra]

Didn't read all the comments but wanted to tell you guys my tip for all the trips:

Accept what you get. Observe it. That's it.

Good or bad, whatever it is. You got negative emotions? Observe them. How do they feel? Where do they come from? Take them as tools to learn something.
You got positive emotions? The same thing. Just observe them. Learn from them. What are they? Where did they come from? Don't start craving for more. All the things just come and go. Let them go to be open for what is coming next.

So what ever you get, just observe it and learn from it. Be grateful for every difficult and hard trip because they are the ones that teach you the most.

Once you start doing this, it doesn't matter anymore whether the trip is a "good" or a "bad" one. It just is what it is.
Nothing is more beautiful than the reality as it is, with all the fear, all the love, all the wide scale of emotions.

The attempt to avoid a "bad trip" is usually the thing that makes the trip a bad one.

So I say "welcome" to all the bad stuff.
It's pretty important in life in general, not only when you are tripping.

If you are not ready to say "welcome" for a bad trip, just don't trip at all.

 

[zezt]

Good advice!

 

[zezt]

I have this book, I am going to copy a part from:

Dionysian Tradition

The essence of the Dionysian tradition is the affirmation of the whole self through ecstatic ritual. Patriarchal civilization takes one facet of the person--the rationally calculating ego--and identifies it with selfhood. All other aspects become either demons (as in Christianity) or subversive unconscious forces (as in modern psychologism). In the Dionysian tradition, emotions, fantasies, and sexual longings are summoned forth and embraced as inherent parts of the self.
Patriarchal civilization pits the calculating ego against other egos and views this confrontational situation as the essence of social interrelation. In the practice of the Dionysian mysteries, the essential unit is not the isolated individual but the group-in-action, which manifests its collective energy through the throbbing patterns of song, dance, and orgiastic sex among its individual participants. In these shared patterns of rhythmic energy, one's sense of self overlaps with that of others, and the felt barrier between "me" and "the world" dissolves.
In patriarchal civilizations, the ego grows at the expense of the rest of the world by taking away from others and incorporating the gain within its own boundaries. The Dionysian tradition aims at ecstasy--stepping outside the limits of one's ego. By participating in the god's rituals, individuals enter an altered state of consciousness, break through ego boundaries, and let themselves dissolve into the world.
On returning to their ordinary mental states, they sometimes find that the old boundaries of ego-definition have been stretched and altered and that they are slightly different persons. They transcend objectivity not only by giving themselves into the world but by participating in the process of their own self re-creation.
The Dionysian tradition sharply diverges from patriarchal civilization in its use of hallucinogens. In societies influenced by patriarchal values, the use of mind-altering substances is usually forbidden or stigmatized. As a result, people who seek to experiment with=
them have to maneuver around both the legal system and a network of negative value judgments, a situation that gives to these substances the aura of a tabooed self-indulgence. Drug users lack a supportive ritual context for an enlightened use of their drugs. They may also be driven by the self-destructive feelings characteristic of the patriarchal psychosis. If so, they can easily fall prey first to compulsive drug use and then to addiction. Hence patriarchal societies tend to be schizophrenic in their attitude toward such drugs: officially they have an absolute ban on their use, yet large segments of the population continue to use them compulsively and self-destructively in secret.
In the Dionysian tradition, mind-altering substances (a category into which wine was originally placed) are openly used in accepted, traditional, structured rituals aimed at self-growth. Not only does no taboo attach to such use of these substances, but an elaborate system of myth and ritual guides the user according to the cumulative experiences of generations of previous users. As a result, the extremes both of puritanical denial and of self-destructive addiction tend to be much less common. Users are given the incentives, skills, and supportive ritual context to enjoy their hallucinogens to positive effect. By way of contrast, the traditional approach of patriarchal societies--to condemn all hallucinogens regardless of type or source, to suppress information on rational drug use, to penalize any apprehended drug user--has simply not worked and in fact has often corresponded to a long-term increase in drug addiction.
The God of Escstasy: Sex Roles and the Madness of Dionysos, c 1988 Arthur Evans, St. Martin's Press, New York.

John Allegro, in his book The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, reveals the hidden meaning of words that are in mythology. He shows that the root meansing of god names are pointing to consciousness-changing vegetation. Dionysos is a mythical character which is secretly referring to a psychedelic mushroom! In the patriarchal mythos these secrets are considered very dangerous and hidden, except for an imitated cult, but in the more ancient Goddess mythology it was more open. The imagery was directly pointing to this and was not denigrated by text, often said to be the 'word of God'

The essence of the Dionysian tradition is the affirmation of the whole self through ecstatic ritual. Patriarchal civilization takes one facet of the person--the rationally calculating ego--and identifies it with selfhood. All other aspects become either demons (as in Christianity) or subversive unconscious forces (as in modern psychologism). In the Dionysian tradition, emotions, fantasies, and sexual longings are summoned forth and embraced as inherent parts of the self

I think a reason for so-called 'bad' trips could very well be what is being said above. How in Christian conditioning any feelings of sexuality, and other emotions considered 'wrong' would be found to be dagerous and resisted. And same is so with 'psychologism' where you have been told that you are this 'ego' and there is a very dangerous 'Id' which is full of monsters ready to devour you, bla bla. All that creates a paranoia and fear. Whereas if you understand that nature, including your own unique nature is not inherently bad or 'mentally ill', then there can be a full exploration of being

The Dionysian tradition aims at ecstasy--stepping outside the limits of one's ego. By participating in the god's rituals, individuals enter an altered state of consciousness, break through ego boundaries, and let themselves dissolve into the world.

Dionysos is known as the god of many names which includes theatre/masks, and of nature
His 'rituals' are the psychedelic ecstatic dimensions. The non rational
Ego transcendence in this context is not some looking down on nature via escape or 'superhumanness' like the occult mystery schools promise (and what the elite follow), but rather ecstatic immersion where you merge with nature, because we are nature

On returning to their ordinary mental states, they sometimes find that the old boundaries of ego-definition have been stretched and altered and that they are slightly different persons. They transcend objectivity not only by giving themselves into the world but by participating in the process of their own self re-creation.

Yes, you experience intersubjectivity in ecstatic ways, and the understanding this is very real, and not just a 'chameical ride' or 'getting fucked up' is meaning we integrate our sensual interelationahp with ourselfs and nature and others. However, the 'world' we return to is constantly emphasizing the superiority of the 'rational calculating ego' amnd this is why some people who have psychedelic experience will quickly lost these deeper insights when the y 'come down' and fall slap bang into the soul-dead matrix again, and will argue you till blue in the face they are right and will demand 'physical scientific evidence' if you challenge them.

The clue is to know that there will always be Mystery, because 'known' and unknown' arise mutually. You can never know the unknown



Watch and listen to this, and save it, and next time you have a trip be sure to watch and listen to this, it is VERY powerful!

[YOUTUBE]QHgZvetCou8[/YOUTUBE]

 

[entheogenresearcher]

Thanks everybody.

About the frequency of tripping: Sludge mentioned that taking a period of rest after a bad trip might be a good idea, and Abeja talks about finding the right balance. In a recent book by James Fadiman called The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide, he says that "the more profound the experience, the longer you should wait before doing it again," and mentions six months as a minimum period between entheogenic journeys.

What seems to you (all of you) to be a reasonable frequency of entheogenic exploration? What are the consequences, if any, of overdoing it? Does it possible lead to bad trips - or just boring trips? Have you ever felt that you were doing it too often?

 

[zezt]

Checkout this guy called James W Jesso. I got his book called Decomposing The Shadow: Lessons From The Psilocybin Mushroom. It's a good book but I had been hoping for more trip reports.

But he said he took shrooms every full moon, and last year that is what I did also. It was good. VERY healing and inspiring

his FB is called Adventures through the Mind

 

[Abej^a G.]

What seems to you (all of you) to be a reasonable frequency of entheogenic exploration? What are the consequences, if any, of overdoing it? Does it possible lead to bad trips - or just boring trips? Have you ever felt that you were doing it too often?

(I try to use google translate,) in my city we say: "the good thing too", clear..

Consequences of overdoing for example are to feel the ego spiritualized, omnipotent, gurus or enlightened, ... or go to crazy. or live in the fear. all things that don't destroy the egoism but rather increase it; when in reality entheogenic research is endless

(if you have a bit of time: http://www.psychonaut.com/psichedelia-e-altro/52682-10-malattie-spiritualmente-trasmissibili.html / "10 transmissible spiritually diseases")

 

[Finarfin]

Frequency depends on how you feel what you want and how much time you have. Most people i know who take mushrooms take them once a year or even less. One session can be very healing and memorable.

I have had periods when i took mushrooms once a month. Last year i took them about six times i think.
I do not know other people who eat mushrooms regulary (more then once or twice in a year)

Whyra had very good advise about how to avoid a bad trip.

The problems ussualy start when you try to fight what is going on or want the trip to end and try to get control over the trip.
It, s a hippy cliché but very true. You need to let go. Go with the flow.

Listen to your body
When you feel your body getting tense.
Try to relax. Try to be open. Try to welcome the mushrooms entering your body your biosystem. .

Let go. Let it be. Let it happen. Do not fight it. The setting can realy help with this. Create a safe environment where you are free and feel safe to open up.

Letting go may sounds simple. But believe me sometimes it, s not easy.

 

[entheogenresearcher]

Thanks everybody for your perspectives on bad trips. Has anyone ever had a bad trip that was caused by the fear of overdoing, addiction or similar thoughts?

zezt: I am sure it is possible to argue that Fadiman is over-careful. All I care about is what you guys think is a sensible frequency. Did you ever do the shrooms more than once a month? If you ever did "too much" (however much that might be), what were the consequences?

abeja: what you are saying about overdoing sounds very reasonable. How much is too much in your opinion, and did you ever do too much yourself?
(I don't read Italian unfortunately.)

Finarfin: When you took mushrooms every month, how was your life? were the consequences mostly good or bad? why did you start doing the mushrooms more rarely?

 

[Sludge]

You can't be addicted to psychedelics. If you're doing things right, you will know when it's too much, you will feel it. I know you will be fine, seeing how much you prepare yourself, asking questions and such. If you overdo it, you will have less and less interesting experiences.

 

[zezt]

Thanks everybody for your perspectives on bad trips. Has anyone ever had a bad trip that was caused by the fear of overdoing, addiction or similar thoughts?

zezt: I am sure it is possible to argue that Fadiman is over-careful. All I care about is what you guys think is a sensible frequency. Did you ever do the shrooms more than once a month? If you ever did "too much" (however much that might be), what were the consequences?

Fadiman doesn't seem to want to enter into dialogue privately. Maybe he is very busy, but I joined his FB and he seems to quietly get rid of me lol Maybe the questions I were asking were too radical for him and his followers I don't know. I was going to pursue it but found out he was ill so I left it

I like what he tells about 'micro-doses'. I find all of this very interesting. I am not sure if he has done anything to do with music and singing.
In the shroom-picking season last year, I experimented several times when picking with eatng a very few (about 3/3 liberty caps), and on one occasion just one! Each time I felt that lossening--that sense of inspiration, and one way I can really tell is by singing. I feel possessed, and have great vocal dexterity and more breath. So I am very interested in microdosing. Have you looked into this?

Like I said, last year, inspired by James W Jesso, I began having a magic mushroom trip (approx. 40 dried liberty caps) every full moon. And I really loved it. The only reason I am not doing presently is because lack of venue, or appropriate setting, at the moment

 

[Abej^a G.]

Thanks everybody for your perspectives on bad trips. Has anyone ever had a bad trip that was caused by the fear of overdoing, addiction or similar thoughts?


abeja: what you are saying about overdoing sounds very reasonable. How much is too much in your opinion, and did you ever do too much yourself?
(I don't read Italian unfortunately.)

(use google translate ^^ )

well, when is to much?! I would say now, when we reason of the head and not of heart. the important thing is consistency.
if you know to be wrong, why do it ?!
maybe I exaggerated in life with opium, many years ago.

 

[BrusqueArabesque]

It seems like a tricky question and i love it .

Why we trip ? I trip to know the answer of this question . I'm just curious since some years. My best tripping friend was my "initiator" to the psychedelism world, also in term of RCs ans Risks Reduces. Now ? I do it of my own way .
What is a Bad Trip ? I guess it's a kind of "answer". I never had once OR i didn't even mention it mentally. However, the more difficult remain the relationship Gonzo-Duke with the dear friend. Playing with our tripping égo could be harassing sometime. However, every trip should be a lesson, whatever the "vine".
How to avoid them ? It could very natural to stop it, easier than H and W, and much more easier than the tobacco.

My answer seems simple, but ... not the easiest ones. Maybe the "experienced" could confirm

 

[Whyra]

What seems to you (all of you) to be a reasonable frequency of entheogenic exploration? What are the consequences, if any, of overdoing it? Does it possible lead to bad trips - or just boring trips? Have you ever felt that you were doing it too often?

There is a term for people who start tripping a lot: "eraserheads". This is a phenomena that sometimes occurs when people start using psychedelics. And it's something that happened to me.

So basically I was tripping 4-5 times a week for about 3-4 months. What happened to me was that I lost the trips. I didn't get the psychedelic mind state anymore, only the physical effects.
When I stopped this I was in the point where I didn't get anything else out of acid than just muscle cramps. Sometimes a few visuals but mostly I had lost them too.

I also tripped in a lot of places where I shouldn't have, basically because I was tripping all the time. And I also had one really terrible experience of giving acid to a beginner in a very bad set & setting because at that point I didn't realize anymore how it feels to actually "trip" since I was mostly just sober even after big dosages acid.

The thing is there are a lot of mental processes going on and starting during your tripping. If you don't keep the pause, you can't integrate those things to your daily life. What is the point of tripping then? Is is just to be high? If that's the point, I guess then there is no problem tripping as often as you want (concidering your job/school etc.).

The time after the trip is the most important. It's a lot more important than the time your tripping. Once you start understanding how the psychedelics work, you'll realize that the best time to make changes in your life is shortly after the psychedelic trip. And then you just have to keep on doing the things in a new way. If you trip too often and change nothing, there's no point.

You were asking what is the reasonable frequency for tripping. There is no right answer. It depends on you.

I often get this feeling a 1-3 months before the trip that "hey, that's the day when I'm going to trip and I'm going to take this much of this psychedelic". It's my intuition basically. I've noticed that the times for my trips are usually times when there has been a big chance in my life or something new is starting (For example when I broke up with my bf and moved to my own apartment, or when I came back to my home after a long trip to Asia). On top of this I sometimes have periods when I do microdosing every day for a week or two (or every second day). I don't count this as tripping since it's quite another thing. The dosages are something like 0,05 g shrooms (psilocybe semilanceata, not cubensis) or like 15-20ug of acid. But it's very easy to feel the effect.

Anyway listen to yourself. If nothing in your life changes after psychedelic trips (not just temporarily), you're doing something wrong (possibly taking too often or not working enough after the trips).

added later:
Think about your intentions to tripping. The right intention is the key, I would say. If you want to get benefits from tripping, you should trip when you feel like you want to have a change in your life. The psychedelics don't do the change for you but they might help you to get into the start of the changing process. So if you just trip without any reason you'll easily end up tripping too much.