Stan Grof's LSD Psychotherapy

[Forkbender]

I've learned a lot about sitting by practicing qi gong with my teacher. He supports the whole group, helps everyone, but lets everyone learn what he or she needs to learn by themselves, i.e. no theory/projection, just 'try this and see what happens'. That would be my ideal sitter attitude, being able to adjust people's course without putting ego in it. At the same time, I do think that after a few sessions in a safe environment, you can do the same without a sitter. Learning to navigate your own inner world without the help or guidance of a therapist is the next step.

 

[GOD]

To sitting and what Stan is talkking about .

Its psychotherapy where , from my own personal experience , the guy doesnt say anything at all . Nothing . Even if you sit there and dont say anything for the whole one hour session . When a person starts talking , wich they all do after a bit / a few sessions , he just listens . Eventualy that person gets onto the themes hes haveing problems with and by what they talk about , the way they do it and the words they use he sees inbalances . Then just by him listening the person lets off steam , relaxes and realises a lot of what a lot of their problems are and sees answers . When the guy sees blockades or that a person cant answer their own issues he says ocaisionaly "why" . That way a person gets confronted with themselves and their problems and solves them .

No i aint and never was nuts . And i`ve never had psychedelic / transpersonal therapy but the principal is the same . When i was younger anyone who took drugs was considered to be mentaly ill and got sent to psychologists and psychiatrists . Even though i wasnt nuts it was fun and it helped me to see me, my life and the effects i had on other people better and improve myself .

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

The following citations are from pages 219-227.

"In an earlier section of this book, we discussed abstract, psychodynamic, perinatal and transpersonal phenomena as being the four major categories of experiences occurring in LSD sessions. The arrangements of the generative matrices of these experiential modalities and their interconnections are intricate and complex. They cannot be reduced to any linear model, and are best understood in holonomic [holographic] terms. It is, therefore, not quite accurate to talk about the unconscious as stratified, and to refer to some of its manifestations as more superficial than others. Yet in everyday clinical work with LSD some of these phenomena seem to be generally more available than others, and in serial psychedelic sessions they tend to emerge in a certain characteristic sequence. In the first few LSD sessions, especially if the dosage is kept within the range of 100-150 micrograms, there is usually a preponderance of abstract experiences of various kinds. With the eyes closed, most LSD subjects have incredibly colorful and dynamic visions of geometric designs, architectural forms, kaleidoscopic displays, magic fountains, or fantastic fireworks."

"Characteristic occurrences at this stage are synaesthesias, where external stimuli produce responses in inappropriate sensory organs; thus LSD subjects can report such extraordinary phenomena as seeing music, hearing pain, or tasting colors. The above experiences, although fascinating from the aesthetic and artistic point of view, seem to have very little relevance from the point of view of therapy, self-exploration, and personal growth."

"Visions of geometrical patterns are so common in the low-dose LSD sessions of beginners that they were originally considered a regular and typical reaction to the drug. However, they tend to disappear from the sessions when the dose is increased or the administration of LSD repeated. This is an observation that is not easy to explain."

"In the study of psycholytic therapy in Prague most patients had, in the initial stages of their LSD treatment sessions, psychodynamic and abstract elements in various combinations and proportions. With the increasing number of sessions, the abstract phenomena progressively disappeared from the content of psychedelic experiences and the process focused on complex biographical self-exploration."

"When serial psychedelic sessions were continued, sooner or later every single LSD subject transcended the biographical stage and moved fully into the perinatal area."

"The time needed for psychodynamic work can be considerably shortened if the sitters are familiar with the perinatal and transpersonal dimensions of psychedelic experience and are comfortable with them. Once patients are fully involved in the death-rebirth process, the main focus in many consecutive LSD sessions is on the perinatal unfolding, with all its ramifications and nuances."

"Although LSD subjects can have several sequences of death and rebirth in a single psychedelic experience, it usually takes many sessions before this process is finished and the perinatal material completely disappears from their content."

"Another typical sign that the death-rebirth process is coming to an end is experiential predominance of the element of fire, in the form of concrete images of volcanoes, thermonuclear reactions, explosions and conflagrations, and especially in the more abstract and transcendental form of the purifying and rejuvenating fire (pyrocatharsis). It is of critical importance for the practice of LSD psychotherapy to know the concomitants of the experiential transition from death to rebirth intimately."

"Quite frequently, LSD subjects experiencing various aspects of the birth trauma report a simultaneous reliving of past-incarnation memories which involve similar elements. Feelings of suffocation in the birth canal can thus be associated with what feels like a memory of being drowned or hanged in another life-time. Sharp perinatal pains can take the form of being gored by a sword or a wild animal in a previous incarnation, and no-exit feelings of Basic Perinatal Matrix II can be paralleled by a scene of imprisonment in a medieval dungeon. In a similar way, experiences of the ego death can coincide with executions, murders, or ritual sacrifices. Many other forms of transpersonal phenomena can make their first appearance in connection with perinatal sequences. Various archetypal images of deities and demons can accompany the birth experiences, as individual visions or in the context of entire mythological sequences. Versions of the Terrible or Great Mother, Satan, Moloch, Shiva the Destroyer, Osiris, Dionysus and Jesus Christ seem to have specific association with individual perinatal matrices and various aspects of the birth process."

"In the extreme, the death-rebirth experience can seem to have transcended all boundaries and become a drama involving all of mankind."

"The number of psychedelic sessions necessary for the completion of the perinatal process varies considerably from person to person and also depends critically on external factors such as dosage, therapist, set and setting."

"I have also met a number of people who had taken LSD on their own, in an unsupervised externalized way and in a social context, and had not really begun this process in spite of hundreds of exposures to the drug."

"If high dosages of pure LSD are used and the sessions are approached as in-depth self-exploration, most individuals sooner or later complete the process of ego death and rebirth. Beyond this point, all their sessions are transpersonal in nature and represent a continuing philosophical and spiritual search. Whether the process was originally approached as therapy or for another reason, it becomes at this stage a cosmic adventure in consciousness aimed at solving the riddles of personal identity, human existence, and the universal scheme."

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Another typical sign that the death-rebirth process is coming to an end is experiential predominance of the element of fire, in the form of concrete images of volcanoes, thermonuclear reactions, explosions and conflagrations

I vividly remember from my trip on 8 grams of dried cubensis visions of a thermonuclear explosion that seemed to have destroyed the entire world. Do any of you remember such visions? I never understood why I had them, until I read Stan Grof's work.

In the extreme, the death-rebirth experience can seem to have transcended all boundaries and become a drama involving all of mankind.

When I returned to consciousness after my DMT experience, part of me was convinced the entire universe had been destroyed by a mysterious cataclysm. I had similar feelings after ingesting ayahuasca containing 19 grams of Mimosa hostilis. That experience had the unique characteristic that it seemed like the future of the entire world depended on my ability to tolerate and successfully navigate myself through the experience. During that session I did not respond to things that were said to me, unless they were repeated with a loud voice. The feeling that so much "depended on me" is also mentioned by Grof:

"In the course of repeated LSD sessions that focus on the perinatal level, the experiences of dying usually become deeper and more complete. When the process reaches the stages of the final ego death, special technical problems can occur. The ego death involves an experience of the destruction of everything that the subject is, possesses, or is attached to. Its essential characteristics are a sense of total annihilation on all imaginable levels, loss of all systems of relation and reference, and destruction of the objective world. As it is approached in different directions and on different levels, the process requires more and more psychological sacrifice. In the final stages, subjects have to face and confront experiences, situations and circumstances that are unacceptable or even unimaginable to them.
The nature of the experiences that represent the final obstacle for the completion of the death-rebirth process varies from subject to subject. For some, it can be certain critical physical conditions, such as high degree of suffocation, agonizing physical pain, blacking out, or violent seizure-like activity. Others have to face a situation which is psychologically utterly unacceptable to them, and surrender to it. The most frequent of these are vomiting, losing control of the bladder or bowels; sexually unacceptable behavior; confusion and disorientation; making various inhuman sounds; and humiliation or loss of prestige. A very difficult and important experience that occurs in the context of ego death is the expectation of a catastrophe of enormous dimensions. Subjects face agonizing tension increasing to fantastic proportions and develop a conviction that they will explode and the entire world will be destroyed. This fear of disintegration represents a difficult experiential barrier; in their special state subjects may generate a strong conviction that not only their own fate, but the fate of the entire world depends on their ability to hold on. In this situation it is extremely important that the sitters repeatedly emphasize the safety of the experience. No matter how catastrophic it might appear from the subjective point of view, this explosion is ultimately emotionally and spiritually liberating. What is destroyed is the old, limiting concept of oneself and the corresponding restricting view of existence and of the universe. Once the process reaches this point, it is absolutely essential to complete the experiential gestalt. Unfinished and poorly integrated sessions in this area can result in serious destructive behavior and suicidal ideation."

As an illustration, I cite from my own 2007 ayahuasca trip report:

By now the Full Moon was slightly eclipsed. First the Peganum Harmala, then the remains of the Mimosa Hostilis. No nausea this time, perhaps because this time I also smoked Cannabis. Then within an hour the trip came on, very strongly. It continued to build up until I started to lose my grip on everyday reality, floating into other realms of consciousness, with the most amazing iridescent color patterns. I called my friend to be with me. But at a certain point my ramblings became totally meaningless as I experienced the most intense levels of inner ecstasy I had ever experienced in this life, and my trip seemed to determine the future of the entire Earth and cosmos, whether it would continue to exist and whether good or evil would prevail. With hard work, investing my very essence, I fixed the problem, and both the other world and myself became jubilent.
I started shouting: "Whooo!!! Lydia?"
"Yes Ivar?"
"It’s beautiful! Whooo!!! Lydia?"
"Yes?"
"It’s beautiful! Whooo!" and so on.
Also I kept repeating "These are the times. These are the times!"
By the end of the peak I was very confident that the end of history in December 2012 is nothing to fear, just like death is nothing to fear. It is beautiful. Words cannot express the beauty of the amazing rainbows and melting together of the self and all that is.
Compared to my recent experiments with Psilocybe Cubensis (5 to 6 grams of dried mushrooms) this one was at least as intense, and certainly much more ecstatic. And perhaps I did save the universe, who knows?

 

[magickmumu]

I vividly remember from my trip on 8 grams of dried cubensis visions of a thermonuclear explosion that seemed to have destroyed the entire world. Do any of you remember such visions? I never understood why I had them, until I read Stan Grof's work.


Remember that bad trip I told you about, when Ed and I took some of those little mushrooms.
Well a lot was going on, and one theme that kept returning was that Rotterdam has been hit by a Nuclear attack.
I saw blood on the floor and i had the feeling of being coverd in blood.
I was convinced we all died in the bombing.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Remember that bad trip I told you about, when Ed and I took some of those little mushrooms.
Well a lot was going on, and one theme that kept returning was that Rotterdam has been hit by a Nuclear attack.
I saw blood on the floor and i had the feeling of being coverd in blood.
I was convinced we all died in the bombing.

Wow, you didn't tell me that part yet. But yes, Stan gives numerous examples of people thinking they're covered in blood (right before my experience of the nuclear explosion I thought I was crying blood), much like a newborn baby.

 

[Brugmansia]

Stan gives numerous examples of people thinking they're covered in blood (right before my experience of the nuclear explosion I thought I was crying blood), much like a newborn baby.

That's much more a characteristic effect of an heroic dose of mushroom (>5 grams) than an heroic dose of LSD. Although I never associated it with blood myself.

It's when you feel your skin and posture as a pure sensible membrane, your arms are not yours but more a grab crane, associated with the locomotion of an animal. If you stroke with your fingers over your cheeks you can even feel the moisture prints remaining on there. Everything is going intensly slow and you're moving and experiencing your posture as a natural robot, and it's like your body is covered in lime (or blood, as many subjectively define). Big head, small body. You can literally feel your clothes.

At the same time also realising mankind has gotten a huge conceitedness over time. We have amnesia of how we were formed by nature, as a complete fragile web without a stable intelligence to exist unthreatened. I'm almost sure many animals still experience it this way.

This reflection, and followed fear of destruction, which none the doubt occurs if you push psilo to the limit, might pop some sense into the mind of every human being that we're still only an inferior creation of nature. An actual realisation through reality change, instead of merely the theoretical/religious metaphors.

 

[????????]

the element of fire

after the peak of my hardest trip i could not close my eyes without thinking of a gigantic glaring blinding ball of light, in fact, even with eyes open the feeling of it was there.

 

[Ahuaeynjxs]

Just like a cultural shock... thats how I see it. To me this whole death and rebirth crap is just a reenactement of the old days mystical schools, they try to make it pass kindly as a scientifically graspable phenomenon, but it truely is arrogant to the soul to assume such things.

I have not seen one person look different from a heroic dose of psychedelics on the next day, they looked the same, some were a little less agressive but overall no big difference, well of course if the person was terribly troubled beforehand... but the same result could be achieved with a rubber hammer and a convincing self-hypnosis tape. To me thats so far off the purpose of psychedelics, to blow your head and ego away, it even seems counterproductive, this construct is giving me problems so I will blast it away, wtf ?!

Thats how I see psychedelics, hammers of various sizes and function... if you use it with respect it can help you live your life more fully and learn to really see with your heart, but used to the extreme it might just take you the rest of your life to understand what is your soul all about... and I speak from experience, having done 6 grams well chewed hawaillan cubensis and 8 very strong hawaillan baby woodroses ; yes it was a hawaillan themed night ; our inner demons came forth and I was probably the only one who managed to resist having a rebirth, because during my trip, the consciousness which blindly accepted that I could kill my ego WAS a demon, it was a timelord, and I didn't like his look in my eyes.

I actually had to resist, because all my other friends were completely blasted, one of them having the experiences you describe and not feeling good about it, the others tried to keep him good company so I was left on my own to face the reality which I learned with my life experiences.

So to me this experience apart from actually destroying your true soul, makes you gain nothing more than what you can learn by actually living your life. (a.k.a not bowing in front of the machine, not even one compromise)

I would warn against it, especially with a sitter or therapist. Oh this was not my only heroic experience, one of the most intense was 700 ug of LSD (did it on its own too, and with cannabis) on a third plateau of DXM. Oh and there was the ketamine k-hole as well... high dose Datura tripping for 20 hours, salvia on shrooms... high dose peruvian torch...

etc etc etc... the pharaoh used an admixture like this to get his death and rebirth (its described as such) and he becomes then a god-man, which is pathetic in the coming age of aquarius, simply outdated and harmful even ; I'm the perfect living example of this.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

That's much more a characteristic effect of an heroic dose of mushroom (>5 grams) than an heroic dose of LSD.

That might be true, but one of the first personal accounts of a high dose LSD trip I heard from a friend was that of seeing blood everywhere. Similarly the experience of morphing into a jaguar is mentioned by Stan Grof in relation to LSD experiences (with eyes closed), even though that seems to be much more common in relation to ayahuasca.

Big head, small body.

Yes, just like a baby.

Ahuaeynjxs, what was your physical birth like?

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Just now I found an online course in transpersonal counselling, with the 7th lesson dedicated to Stan Grof's work.

There is an illustrated explanation there of terms like the four Basic Perinatal Matrices and the COEX systems.

For example:

Grof divides the birth process up in four stages or
PERINATAL MATRICES



BPM I: Unity with the mother
BPM II: Opposition to the mother
BPM III: Cooperation with the mother
BPM IV: Separation from the mother

A general idea of the impact from the different stages could be:

BPM I: Positive experiences: Trust, expansion, union with the cosmos.
Negative experiences: Paranoia, hypochondria, confusing daydreams with reality.

BPM II: Positive experiences?
Negative experiences: Depression, "cardboard world", inferiority and guilt, alcohol and drug dependency.

BPM III: Positive experiences: "It pays to fight for something"
Negative experiences: Sadomasochism, scatological elements, obsessive-compulsive neurosis, stammering, migraine headache.

BPM IV: Positive experiences: The world is a beautiful and safe place
Negative experiences: Total annihilation, ego death, manic experiences.



BPM I

The biological basis of this matrix is the experience of the original symbiotic unity of the foetus with the maternal organism…
During episodes of undisturbed life in the womb, the conditions of the child can be close to ideal.
However, a variety of factors of physical, chemical, biological and psychological nature can seriously interfere with this state.
The undisturbed intra-uterine state can be accompanied by other experiences that share with it a lack of boundaries and obstructions, such as consciousness of the ocean, an aquatic life form (Whale, fish, jellyfish, anemone, or kelp), or interstellar space. Also Nature at its best.
Archetypical images from the collective unconscious could be the heavens or paradises of different cultures, cosmic union or mystical union.

The disturbances of inter-uterine life are associated with images and experiences of underwater dangers, polluted streams, contaminated or inhospitable nature, and insidious demons.
Examples of disturbances can be strong conflict between the father and expectant mother, considerations of abortion, strong intoxication.
The mystical dissolution of boundaries is replaced by a psychotic distortion with paranoid undertones.






BPM II

This matrix has its biological basis in the very onset of biological delivery and its first clinical stage.
Here the original equilibrium of the intra-uterine existence is disturbed, first by alarming signals and then by muscular contractions. When this stage fully develops, the foetus is periodically constricted by uterine spasms; the cervix is closed and the way out is not yet available

Imagery following BPM II is the experience of cosmic engulfment, overwhelming feelings of increasing anxiety and awareness of an imminent vital threat. The source of this danger cannot be clearly identified, and the subject has a tendency to interpret the world in paranoid terms. Very characteristic for this stage is the experience of a three dimensional spiral, funnel or whirlpool, sucking the subject relentlessly towards its centre.
An equivalent of this annihilating maelstrom is the experience of being swallowed by a terrifying monster, such as a giant dragon, python, crocodile or whale. Equally frequent are experiences of attack by a monstrous octopus or spider.
Archetypical imagery is the beginning of the hero’s journey, the fall of the angels, paradise lost. Images of being stuck, in prison or concentration camp or even hell are also common.
Common feelings are agonising metaphysical loneliness, helplessness, inferiority, despair and guilt.



etc.

 

[restin]

BPM I: Unity with the mother
BPM II: Opposition to the mother
BPM III: Cooperation with the mother
BPM IV: Separation from the mother

A general idea of the impact from the different stages could be:

BPM I: Positive experiences: Trust, expansion, union with the cosmos.
Negative experiences: Paranoia, hypochondria, confusing daydreams with reality.

BPM II: Positive experiences?
Negative experiences: Depression, "cardboard world", inferiority and guilt, alcohol and drug dependency.

BPM III: Positive experiences: "It pays to fight for something"
Negative experiences: Sadomasochism, scatological elements, obsessive-compulsive neurosis, stammering, migraine headache.

BPM IV: Positive experiences: The world is a beautiful and safe place
Negative experiences: Total annihilation, ego death, manic experiences.

Phew...I think this is a very courageous statement.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Phew...I think this is a very courageous statement.

But not intended as a statement. It's a summary of a vast theory.

 

[restin]

yes, I meant theory. It is an interesting statement that the building of the human character already begins before birth. Again, the dispute about predestination comes into play. Is it my fault if I start hurting people because faults in my BPM III? I should read his book probably.

But I am busy with Erich Fromm :heart:

 

[Ahuaeynjxs]

I actually think this is very clever, as it's not predestination its talking about... rather a kind of preset in relation to the external matrix which I often talk about (silica-sun interaction creating electromagnetic dark matter voids)

Even he might be considered quite genius for thinking it out... I had similar toughts.

My birth was smooth, took a long time, maybe 20 hours, but overall very very beautiful event (apart from being in an electricity laden hospital of course). I had a flashback of it all on the 40 grams african amanita + reingesting my urine twice over 5 hours.

But what I think about this is that its not a theory, but in this coming age we thrive to transcend the matrix and be a conscious glob of water, so in a way I see it as moving away from those condtructs, I consider myself much further than this, but unable to go as far as someone who would never have been "harmed" by a strong ego death experience, ironically. I might be one of the first to actually realise my limitations and how they came to be however. My ascension is limited.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

yes, I meant theory. It is an interesting statement that the building of the human character already begins before birth. Again, the dispute about predestination comes into play.

True, I also noticed that. Birth plays a deciding role in both Grof's approach and in astrology, though Grof traces the ultimate roots to the days and hours preceding birth. And that is why an astrologer cannot really help you improve your life, while under the right circumstances a psychedelic substance can. Because it offers a means to focus your attention on difficult emotional material, and resolve what happened and what you felt when you made that transition from the womb to the world.

 

[restin]

True, I also noticed that. Birth plays a deciding role in both Grof's approach and in astrology, though Grof traces the ultimate roots to the days and hours preceding birth. And that is why an astrologer cannot really help you improve your life, while under the right circumstances a psychedelic substance can. Because it offers a means to focus your attention on difficult emotional material, and resolve what happened and what you felt when you made that transition from the womb to the world.

mhm you make me aware that I should go deeper into these subjects...

Ahuaeynjxs, your view is very interesting. I cannot say if I "agree" or "disagree" with you - this is simply a topic that is not about opinions but about universal truths. And I am not ready, I am not there yet. Nonetheless, the very "idea" of ego death is deep rooted in the ancient wisdoms of mankind. Just one of many examples is the bible, with the eviction from paradise and the return through ego death, or the way of suffering etc.

I am very...attracted to the idea of overcoming.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Here's actually a much better overview of Stan Grof's premises:

Birth Trauma and Its Relation to Mental Illness, Suicide and Ecstasy

And to my surprise I also found a German article by Stan about astrology, titled: Astrologie und Bewusstsein

Many other articles here: http://www.stanislavgrof.com/articles.htm

 

[IJesusChrist]

This thread is getting pretty good, actually. Proud a you guys :crybaby:

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

This thread is getting pretty good, actually. Proud a you guys :crybaby:

I'm glad you like it. You crossed my mind a couple of times while typing those citations.