Stan Grof's LSD Psychotherapy

[Brugmansia]

Indeed that is my perspective, so the further away you are the better, but also the less the better... if the psychedelic can higher vibrational frequencies, you do not want anything with sympathetic effects (like repetitive sounds and lights) to hamper that ability, but its mainly because in our modern brain, these frequencies are so prevalent that we deeply identify to them... they create a kind of matrix so to speak vibrating with silica (quartz) which is the main component of the upper crust (sand), because when we see something, its all electrical signals, so then we also imagine the thing to remember it so it reflects and thats where the connection is made to that matrix, like a phone call to our higher self that gets intercepted.

This reminds me of a few intense Salvia experiences I had in 2006.

http://www.davidtorno.com/MacTex_Upload ... air001.jpg

 

[GOD]

I think i might start being totaly boring and needlessly quoteing the whole of other peoples posts to . Why not quote them 6 times in each reply just to make sure ?

 

[maxfreakout]

Ego death is a much talked about subject in the psychedelic scene. I don't really believe in it, because often we see a resurrection the moment the drug is out the system.

there is no dispute about 'believing in' ego death or not, because it is a fairly common experience among psychonauts

there isnt 'often' a ressurection, there is ALWAYS a ressurection, really 'ego death' is only the first part of what happens, the full process is more accurately termed 'ego death followed by transcendent rebirth', the whole point is that the ego is reborn into the world, but now it has a transcendentally expanded point of vierw, because it can now remember what it was like to die. The ego that experiences death/rebirth learns the true, hidden meaning of 'death'

Ego is a very modern and Western concept (with possible Hindu/Buddhist parallels) that has enchanted generations of 'spiritual' people.
In many Chinese systems of thought or unsystemic thought there is no such concept. Ego death is a step further. It silently assumes that there is such a thing as ego, while this has never been proven, only postulated by a sex-obsessed Austrian with an addictive personality. It assumes that this ego can die and that the psychedelic experience lets it die (momentarily). I doubt that.

ego is just what you are referring to when you use the word 'I', even Chinese people use this word (or whatever it is in chinese), you can prove to yourself that you have an ego just by asking yourself who/what is thinking your thoughts

the ego that dies and is reborn is not a 'modern concept', the ego that dies in ego death has very little to do with the 'ego' that Freud was talking about, this is just an issue of terminology, the ego that is relevant to 'ego death' is the same thing as the 'self', and this is common to ALL human beings from all over the world since the beginning of history. Every person (including the Chinese) has an ego, as Mckenna pointed out, you NEED an ego otherwise you would be unable to eat/survive (you need to know where to put the food, this is precisely what ego tells you, it distinguishes your self from other people)

so ego death does not 'silently assume' anything, it is an experience that is fairly commonly encountered when taking entheogens, it isnt the same thing as literal bodily death, it is more like an elaborate theatre production that takes place in the mind on a strong trip, where the tripper *thinks* that he or she is dying/going permanently insane/reaching the end of time etc etc

If there is such a thing as an ego, what sets it apart from the psychedelic state?

this question doesnt really make sense, there is of course such a thing as ego, it is your sense of being a person, if you believe (as im sure you do) that you are a person, walking talking living, breathing etc etc then you have an ego just like everyone else

ego functions quite well during the ordinary state of waking consciousness, but in the psychedelic state it doesnt function so well, and it often starts to disintegrate to some extent, this process can all be described very comprehensively and accurately using cognitive-phenomenological terminology

 

[GOD]

Well said Max , good post .

 

[Forkbender]

then who/what is experiencing ego death? Isn't this higher self/transcendent I not just a bigger box?

 

[maxfreakout]

then who/what is experiencing ego death? Isn't this higher self/transcendent I not just a bigger box?

the higher self is the mind (the mental model of the world) which is actually everything that exists (the concept 'Brahman' in Hindu philosophy), so it is a 'bigger box' in a sense, but it is infinitely big, it has no boundaries (it is literally EVERYTHING)

the ego by contrast is a mental structure within the overall structure of mind (in other words, you experience yourself as something small, within the universe which is infinitely big - this is the mental picture/model of what the world is)

so you could say that it is the universe that experiences ego death, you normally identify yourself as one tiny insignificant thing that is separate from the rest of existence (this identification is ego), then when ego death happens, you discover to your shock and amazement that there is no separateness, the all-inclusive world actually includes yourself, so you are actually identical to the universe. This discovery causes the small, limted ego structure to disintegrate/self-terminate, until the brain chemistry returns to normal and the ego is miraculously reconstituted

the process of ego death/rebirth is much like dissolving an aspirin in water, then somehow miraculously getting the whole aspirin out of the water again (or, like a raindrop falling into the ocean, losing its boundaries to the whole ocean, then somehow miraculously being reborn as a separate drop again)

 

[Forkbender]

then why isn't ego death permanent?

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Wow, I'm surprised this thread got so many replies!

Regarding Psychedelic Therapy, please be aware that this method involves very little interaction between the person who trips and the therapist. Such interaction is much more intense in psycholitic therapy. In psycholitic therapy the patient is given low to moderate dosages of LSD, and there's lots of interaction with the therapist, who may or may not take LSD himself. There have also been psycholitic group sessions. Stan Grof and others have come to the conclusion that although both approaches can be useful, depending on the condition of the patient, the high dose Psychedelic Therapy is less time-consuming and very often much more effective.

Also it should be noted that from Stan Grof's point of view, it seems everyone who has gone through the process of being born could benefit from a properly conducted LSD session. This of course includes the children already mentioned by GOD.

Grof also conducted sessions for artists, philosophers and (religious) scholars. Though these people didn't "need" therapy, they were still guided through the experience by therapists.

What a therapist or sitter does during a Psychedelic Therapy session is taking full responsibility for the physical and psychological safety of the person undergoing the experience, so that the person can focus fully on what occurs within, and surrender to it all.

As GOD and Brugmansia have illustrated it's quite possible to do a high dose without a sitter, and indeed for people who are not in need of therapy there may also not be as much of a need for one, especially if they know what to expect and what they want to achieve (intent, purpose). But it seems from this book and the other LSD manual I read recently that even the best psychonauts could achieve more benefit if there's a trusted, sober person nearby.

Magickmumu, I think when a shaman is guiding an entire group, and that shaman is the only sitter around, he cannot possibly take care of all the participants on a personal level. He can only provide everyone with a particular thing to focus on, like music. If he would give the participants a dose that is as psychologically jarring as 500 ug of LSD, he would no longer be capable of taking care of everyone, at least not directly, especially if he had taken a similar dose himself. Such settings are great for experienced (or religious) users, but not for people who really need intense guidance. Also: the shaman must be extremely qualified and dedicated, otherwise he or she should not conduct group sessions.

Ahuaeynjxs, welcome back! Regarding the electricity, that's very difficult. I agree it would be desirable, but kind of impractical. It would mean no music, no isolation tank, and no refrigerated drinks... I think the benefits of music and perhaps spending some time in an isolation tank outweigh the negative effects of electrosmog.

Stan Grof often stresses that though the first 4 or 5 hours of the experience should be spent in a reclining position with headphones and a blindfold on, it can be of tremendous benefit to go into nature during the concluding stages. Therefore the ideal location for psychedelic treatment centers would be in a natural environment, preferably close to a lake, river or ocean. I remember leaving the darkness of my room towards the end my last (medium dose) LSD experience, watching the sun set, gazing over the water of the harbour, and then walking through the park, looking at rainbows... Indeed a very nice way to end a session.

 

[maxfreakout]

then why isn't ego death permanent?

because at the end of the experience, a true miracle happens, something that seems completely impossible, happens nonetheless, which is that the trip ends, and the ego discovers that it was, after all, just a trip (during the experience, the ego stops believing that it is a drug-trip, and instead comes to believe that it is literally experiencing the permanent end of the world and its own existence)

there is a certain sense in which ego death IS permanent, because after ego death, the memory of the experience stays in the mind permanently, and this memory serves as a constant logical correction to the assumption that the ego is separate

so while the virtual separateness is reborn, the ego now realises that is is just virtual/illusory, whereas before ego death, the ego took its separateness as being literally, unproblematically real

in this sense, ego death is the permanent death of a delusion, which is the delusion of being a separate agent

delusion dies permanently, and is reborn as transcendental illusion

 

[Forkbender]

then why is it so important?

 

[GOD]

The breaking down of the walls of self and opening the doors of universal consciousness . Thats the aim , not just to open the doors but to keep them open . Thats what Huxley was talking about . Why dont they stay open permanently ....... because we are human and not perfect . Because we live in this world with all the other people . Maybe , hopefully evolution will take us to universal consciousness . But....one step at a time . Opening pandoras box to the whole of humanity permanently at one time isnt a good idea . Humanity has to learn why its a good idea naturaly .

 

[maxfreakout]

then why is it so important?

being 'important' is relative, it is important to the person who has experienced it, because it entirely transforms the way that life is understood

the ego is forced to adopt an entirely new worldmodel, the enlightened/transcendent model, whichj no longer takes the ego-illusion for granted

ego death is the most intense and profoundly transformative experience that ever happens, it is 'more than' a trip, it goes completely beyond all of the ego's usual expectations about what can and can't happen

ego death is the central meaning of all religion, mythology and higher philosophy, it is the death and rebirth of the Godman

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Nooooooo!!!! Please not another ego-death discussion!!

Here's the original ego-death thread and the ego-death addendum.

If you want to discuss ego-death outside the context of Stan Grof's work, please continue your disagreement in those threads.

 

[GOD]

Max , when your not being a prat your realy good at explainig things and backing up what you say with good arguments .

There are only three experiences = birth , life and death . I think that death is the most intense one and that death is the only time that a person is garanteed to have an ego death .

 

[GOD]

Caduceus , your whole thread and what Stan said and did is about ego death .

 

[maxfreakout]

ego death is the main aim of psychedelic psychotherapy, which was Grof's speciality

but Grof only ever conceived of ego death striclty from within the psychology paradigm, which is arguably a flawed paradigm (as Sartre argued, the whole conceot of an 'unconscious', which is at the heart of psychological theory, is logically incoherent)

ego death is much better understood using cognitive phenomenology, cognitivism is a more recent framework than psychology

 

[maxfreakout]

There are only three experiences = birth , life and death .

but there is also dreaming which is arguably a separate experience from life (Jung focused a lot on this realm of experience)

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Caduceus , your whole thread and what Stan said and did is about ego death .

Stan Grof uses the term ego death very rarely in his book, but I should have known better when I quoted one of the very few passages in which he did...

What I meant (in a somewhat joking manner, feel free to continue your ego-death discussion here) is that there's an elaborate theory about ego-death, developed by Michael Hoffman and well known to Max Freakout, which has a religious rather than a psychological interpretation or emphasis. Also, the type of ego-death discussed by Grof seems to be a unique occurrence dependent on a sitter/therapist, whereas others talk about ego-death as something you can achieve on your own given the right dosage, courage and philosophical outlook.

 

[Forkbender]

I've had several psychedelic experiences that you would call ego death. They are very transformative. Yet what I meant when I said I didn't believe in a thing like ego death is precisely that when such a thing happens, you see that the ego is not something that can die. It is an illusion that you see through at that particular moment. It is seeing straight for the first time, realizing that you have lied to yourself for quite a while. Then you can decide not to lie to yourself anymore.

When the trip ends, often do we forget the promises we made to ourselves. Fear seeps back in to our bloodstream, habits are picked up where we left them before we embarked.

To be conscious is more than having an ego death experience, it also means acting authentically after the trip ends, taking the right steps at the right time and stop living a lie. Ego death means nothing without right action and ego death in itself cannot do it for you. It may help you realize you need to do something or do it differently, but it doesn't do it for you.

 

[maxfreakout]

there's an elaborate theory about ego-death, developed by Michael Hoffman and well known to Max Freakout, which has a religious rather than a psychological interpretation or emphasis.

it has a religious AND a psychological emphasis in Hoffman's theory (and also a phenomenological emphasis). Nothing Hoffman says really contradicts anything Grof said, but Hoffman goes a lot deeper into the specific experience of ego death. Whereas Grof was focused on people with overt psychopathology, Hoffman is talking about ego death as it occurs in anybody

Also, the type of ego-death discussed by Grof seems to be a unique occurrence dependent on a sitter/therapist, whereas others talk about ego-death as something you can achieve on your own given the right dosage, courage and philosophical outlook.

Grof says that the role of the therapist in a deep psychedelic session can be largely just concerned with keeping the person safe from harm, i dont think the therapist has a 'unique' role to play in a person's experiences beyond this