Stan Grof's LSD Psychotherapy

[maxfreakout]

I've had several psychedelic experiences that you would call ego death. They are very transformative. Yet what I meant when I said I didn't believe in a thing like ego death is precisely that when such a thing happens, you see that the ego is not something that can die. It is an illusion that you see through at that particular moment. It is seeing straight for the first time, realizing that you have lied to yourself for quite a while. Then you can decide not to lie to yourself anymore.

When the trip ends, often do we forget the promises we made to ourselves. Fear seeps back in to our bloodstream, habits are picked up where we left them before we embarked.

To be conscious is more than having an ego death experience, it also means acting authentically after the trip ends, taking the right steps at the right time and stop living a lie. Ego death means nothing without right action and ego death in itself cannot do it for you. It may help you realize you need to do something or do it differently, but it doesn't do it for you.

yes i totally agree, there are 2 distinct things that are required for ego death, the experience itself, and the subsequent mental work to integrate the experience. If you dont have BOTH these things, then the full enlightenment/ego-transcendence will not happen

so there are 2 ways of understanding what 'ego death' really refers to, in one sense it is any trip where you think you have died, but in a more important sense it is a stage of development, like puberty, that can only happen once

 

[GOD]

Caduceus . Thats the main diference between you and me , and why some people find me strange or dificult......because i have actualy experienced ego death....... and i learned from it . Thats partly why im like i am .

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

I know/believe/understand that.

 

[GOD]

Caduceus . I dont want to get at you or argue with you but thats the reason why i say i love everybody and you saying one should / can only think of themselves and their family proves to me that you have never had an ego death .

" in one sense it is any trip where you think you have died,"

It has nothing to do with thinking you have died . It has to do with your ego "thinking" IT has died . With separating the "you / ego" from the way one acts and lives . The way one makes desisions .

"but in a more important sense it is a stage of development, like puberty, that can only happen once"

Yes but your talking about the full blown thing that carrys on afterwards if its properly understood and integrated into a persons life . There are also partial or temporary ego deaths . Thats what Stan was doing and the main effect of transpersonal therapy . A temporary look at the real "you" , a clear , egoless , view of you , life , the universe .

 

[restin]

I like this thread.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Caduceus . I dont want to get at you or argue with you but thats the reason why i say i love everybody and you saying one should / can only think of themselves and their family proves to me that you have never had an ego death .

I'm not saying that, I simply quoted Stan Grof as saying: "A person taking a psychedelic drug alone cannot really fully abandon control at the crucial moments of the experience, because part of him or her has to continue playing the role of reality-oriented judge and sitter. However, total surrender is absolutely essential for completing the experience of ego death, one of the crucial steps in the LSD process."

That you as an individual was capable of surrendering to the psychedelic experience and letting go of defenses all by yourself does not mean it's not worth discussing the possible benefits of psychonauts getting together to sit for eachother. Perhaps it will make ego death and all related positive phenomena occur more quickly/frequently/fully?

A couple of times now on this forum I've heard the word ego death related to dosage, sometimes to set & setting, but hardly ever related to the presence of a sitter. We've had psychonaut meetings, and some have come together to trip together, but it seems no experiments with sitting for eachother have been done. It may be worth exploring.

Notice also that Grof says ego death is "one of the crucial steps in the LSD process". There are more.

 

[GOD]

I agree with you , but i dont agree with Stan . Hes generaliseing . Not everyone needs guidance . I think that unconsciously hes doing what lots of doctors do = injecting his ego into the proces , imagining posesion / ( besitzanspruche ) , sort of jelously thinking that without him it wouldnt be posible . In the same way that Hofmann , and others still , used to thiunk that only doctors and theraputists should have acess to hallucinogens . That they are an inseperable part of the process and they are needed to do it and controll it . That its their toy .

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Well, Stan didn't say it was impossible: "This usually requires the possibility of relegating the reality testing and all the decisions on practical matters to a trusted sitter." His emphasis on the inward process (rather than engaging in a dialogue with the sitter/therapist) suggests he knew these deep levels could be reached by responsible but independent psychonauts.

 

[Mr.Smith]

having a sitter may help precipitate ego death, or ego loss as i prefer.

if the subject is particularly nervous or paranoid, they may spend much of the experience trying to work out what is actualy going on, what is "real", in order to detect any threat, and attempting to rationalise everything in stead of letting go. i dont believe ego loss is possible under these circumstances no matter what the dose is.

 

[GOD]

Good distinction . The words ego death frighten a lot of people .

 

[Mr.Smith]

Thanks...

I'm doing better physically thank you, I am unsure as to what doobrys are, but my ears are fine, very round and the lower soft lobe is detached and actually... cold.

I have not seen the movie yet... I'm getting tired of the ways movie are these days, but since it's star trek and Leonard Nimoy is in it, I'll sure get around to it !

I am in a pretty dark mindset right now, so please do not joke around, you know me and my repulsion to jokers and such pyramidal archetypes (I know, paradoxal) ; I know it's hard to ask for coherence after only one message, but it's as you all please.

One of my best friends is heavily medicated after being hit by a drunk driver, this is the 4th of my close aquaintances that get hit by a drunk driver right after I talk to them intimately about what I am all about... she is the only one who actually survived and she was extreemly lucky too, if such a thing actually exists anymore.

I am not only disillusioned, I am loosing tolerance, and far from brigning this load asking for help I stand in tall defiance to all of this. Try your LSD somewhere with NO electricity, and give me news about it brothers and sisters, light a warm fire and feel where I begin and where I end... I am still looking forward for psychonauts, but not electric wave surfers, I am just tired, very tired, please forgive my preponderance. This might pass over as just another rational message, I don't mind, just caring for whatever community we might have started at some point... did you notice that after Pariah made his strike against me, he was never heard from again ? I have over 10 such occurings as of late, some have been positive, some negative, but when I go, they disapear without a trace.

They are following me everywhere, testing my weaknesses and elaborating on my eventual self-breaking in some dire circumstances, tears burn them all as they are, wannabes ; and I love them so much for being intense about trying ; if I could I would teach them all one by one how to be as I am, for the rest of my life but they have their own war to fight now and not on this earth. Judge me as a paranoiac if that makes you feel comfortable enough to remain sane, as I said this is no matter of consequence to me, I have walked alone long enough to read between your lines.

interesting. your friend is hit with a car and you feel sorry for YOURSELF?

poor, poor you

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Caduceus . I dont want to get at you or argue with you but thats the reason why i say i love everybody and you saying one should / can only think of themselves and their family proves to me that you have never had an ego death .

What did you actually mean with "you saying one should / can only think of themselves and their family"? Did it refer to something I've said elsewhere?

 

[GOD]

Yes . I cant remember where but youve said it at least twice in posts .

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Ah, then I think I remember the context. That was about actively guided trips. I didn't mean to say I only think of my family members / children during my trips. Actually I don't remember what exactly I did mean to say when I wrote that, but thanks for clearing up where it came from.

 

[Ahuaeynjxs]

Who said I feel sorry for myself ?

Ego death is what precipitated the age of pisces, the first mystics that experienced it with a comprehensive language structure and some science have lived it.

Heck I completely disagree with everyone even those who think they have opposite points of view here, how am I supposed to discuss ?

I am talking about much more than simple electro-smog, I am saying that all that has living waters is important, but that the general rationalisation of experience and that includes the extremes death and rebirth are totally pointless for the age of aquarius.

But then again, it holds no weight in the thread since I think I am the water bearer and that the process cannot be grasped without me, which is to say that I don't mind if you go through the process or not, because you have living waters in you.

I made that pretty obvious by now, it is not rational !

 

[Ahuaeynjxs]

hello Ahua, i hope your friend gets well. if i catch your drift right, you're saying our modern urban environment diminishes our experiences while we trip and it all happens unconsciously? i think that doing it in some far out cave or forest or something would be a recipe for one hell of a experience but: it has it's traps because then one might be inclined to return to society feeling like some kind of holy man (or even worse.... enlightened)

what is electric radiation?

Yes I am saying it diminishes and limits the experience, but can also do damage to the ascending mind by using electricity as a pedestal to build neural nets, which have then to be undone by an intense brain plasticity moment which is hardly predictable and controlable. I agree that the holyness might be a problem for some who's ego is not in the right place, but to me holyness is in the scent, I will smell a holy man but it wont be because of the things he did or how he talks or what he says that he is holy, it will be all of that magnified by a dynamic ego which sole purpose is to sort events and possibilities into polarised categories, then the scent complexifies, so there is holy, but also super holy.

Electric radiation is a phenomenon that can hardly be explained without bases in quantum science, some imagination and a direct experience. Electricity cymatics enter the time-space of the mind as a frequency which ultimately absolves all other frequencies to the consciousness, radiation is then manifested by quantum tunelling of hydrogen from one's own sun, happily and thanks to Nikola Tesla, the subconscious mind always perceives the alternating polarities within the frequency, thus it has only limited repercussions in the psychy as we speak, but it might get worse with the attempts of the cabal to program our minds with NLP cues and other techniques, eventually overloading the subconscious and "sterelising" the mind to unseen worlds, effectively letting everyone be "free" inside a perfectly calibrated reality, one world order.

Ahua, you are talking upon a pedestal.

Do you know this is all true?

A man coming for therapy does not want to break free from everything, see "God", and understand all there is to know - the man simply wants his symptoms to subside, to be 'normal' before his symptoms developed.

You bring a man in the jungle, give him 650ug of LSD and talk about the stars, how his ego is getting in the way, and how to fix the problem. Then you say you're doing fine, you're cured! And you send him back to his cubicle.

To bring one away from technology, and start labelling quarts and harmonics of electronics as bad, you will soon find yourself very deep in your own dwelling. You can embrace ancient knowledge, and accept that technology is unnecessary, or you can invision the future with it. It is your choice, it is your fight, but who is going to win this fight, you or the masses of reproduction?

Technology is a luxury, you are on the interenet using a luxury instead of mailing, instead of biking, instead of setting up group discussions.

I'm naked, and going to take a shower now. Strawberries are delicious.

You bet I am talking upon a pedestal, I own the internet.

You think it's a luxury, I think its a living being whom it would be wrong to "use", you have the right to your opinion. Oh and of course I intend to win the fight... but I'm not fighting anyone or anything on this earth, I would be ridiculous... I dislike unecessary violence and would never break an object which has uses for other people, I think thats a stupid thing to do. You reminded me of an important thing I said to a stranger I would do however, so thanks for being so rude !

 

[HeartCore]

This made me wonder to what extent psychonauts are really capable of benefiting fully from the "alone in silent darkness" method. Wouldn't the presence of a trusted sitter be desirable or essential for even the most experienced psychonaut?

Not for me. I haven't had sitters in 15 years, then I tried two times and it didn't work out. I'm too much aware of the person in the room.

I love Stans work though, started years ago with 'the Holotropic mind' which he wrote a little later I think.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Not for me. I haven't had sitters in 15 years, then I tried two times and it didn't work out. I'm too much aware of the person in the room.

I knew, when I started this thread, that some of you see no need for a sitter. But like I said: most of us haven't really explored this very much. I acted as a sober sitter for two persons, but now that I'm reading Stan's book I realize I actually had no idea what I was doing (so my guess is the person who acted as your sitter was also not aware of many important principles). When Stan wrote LSD Psychotherapy (in 1980) he had already supervised more than 3000 sessions, so I'm taking his words very seriously. I want to learn more about what it means to be a good sitter, guide or therapist, volunteer to sit for others, and seek out persons who would like to sit for me when I ingest 500 ug.

 

[GOD]

Good intentions , i wish more people would think like that , and that more people would study the subject and learn from it .

I think that the idea of a sitter is very good in certain cases but not in all .

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

I think that the idea of a sitter is very good in certain cases but not in all .

I agree with that, though I'd rather say "a sitter is very good in most cases but not in all."