Stan Grof's LSD Psychotherapy

[HeartCore]

I knew, when I started this thread, that some of you see no need for a sitter. But like I said: most of us haven't really explored this very much.

It depends a lot on your background/experience. I'm with the 'most of the times it's best to have a sitter', just not for me.

 

[GOD]

"I'm with the 'most of the times it's best to have a sitter'"

I`m not . Maybe for most people a sitter the first few times is good but sometime i think they should all forget teddy bears and take the jump and do it alone , or without a sitter and with friends . Maybe there are some people who need / want someone to hold their hands all the time but as far as i`m concerned they are missing the best bits . Imagine a baby bird wearing a parachute and keeping it on all its life even after its learned to fly.......

 

[maxfreakout]

ive come to think that shamanic ceremonies are the best environment to trip in, if you are lucky enough to be able to attend one, then there are sitters on hand to help you, but in general you can have your own intense trip where you dont have to stay grounded in reality

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Maybe for most people a sitter the first few times is good but sometime i think they should all forget teddy bears and take the jump and do it alone , or without a sitter and with friends . Maybe there are some people who need / want someone to hold their hands all the time but as far as i`m concerned they are missing the best bits . Imagine a baby bird wearing a parachute and keeping it on all its life even after its learned to fly.......

Correct me if I'm wrong with any of the following statements. You seem to talk about the sitter as someone who simply helps out with the apprehension and fears, but that would be a very limited view. You seem to say that people should simply have the courage to take that dose, as if the sitter is nothing more than a surrogate mommy and daddy, and that those who think they would benefit from the presence of a sitter are simply too cowardly or insincere to make the journey by themselves. I know you have many other thoughts on the matter as well, but you do seem to be coming back to this again and again. In so doing, you seem to be encouraging others to experiment with solo trips, like you did yourself. And though I have nothing against adults experimenting by themselves, it does entail more risk. I wouldn't be writing this if I had not heard (last year especially) about forum members having very bad and harmful experiences. Yes, it's possible that you achieve ego death by having the guts to take a high dose, but you may also make it to the headlines of tomorrow's newspaper. These substances have very, very powerful effects, and basically ALL modern adolescents have lots of psychological baggage, and therefore it seems to me unsupervised attempts at ego death should be discouraged publicly.

 

[GOD]

I understand and acept what your saying . If this doesnt make what i think clear or you or anyone else have more questions please ask .

I think that for me someone else being there just grounds me and stops me from letting go .

There are two posibilitys . With someone and alone . I think people should also try the alone posibility to .

I`m not talking about ego loss as a dose thing . ( I`m not saying one needs drugs for it either . Meditation and near death experiences can be good for it to ) .

I`m not saying that a sitter is a surogate momy or dady . In a psychelogical therapy not . But most people who want a sitter in a non psychelogical therapy session want one because they are sccared .

I think that most people who have bad experiences on trips either have them because they abused the drugs and / or didnt take care of set and setting , or because they took underdoses , or because they had / have latent mental issues .

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

This morning I read (page 154):

"While seriously adverse aftereffects of supervised LSD sessions tend to occur only in individuals who had considerable emotional problems prior to the drug experience, in the actual course of high-dose psychedelic sessions various emergencies can occur in anybody, without regard to his or her emotional stability. It is essential to inform a client during the preparation period that he or she may have difficult experiences during the sessions, and that these represent a meaningful and integral part of the procedure. One of the major problems in the non-supervised use of psychedelics was a false notion that the subject would experience only states of transcendental bliss and have a uniformly wonderful time. The occurrence of difficult emotional states was therefore perceived as an unexpected complication, and easily caused panic in the subject and his or her friends."

And on page 157:

"Subjects may feel drawn to windows and doors, seeing them as escape routes out of the unbearable psychological situation... ...or be driven to violent self-destructive actions mistaking them for the liberation of ego death. The dangers of the externalization of this process extend beyond the framework of the drug session itself. Unresolved psychedelic experiences of this kind can result in very difficult emotional states in the post-session period, which may last for days or months unless properly treated."

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

I`m not saying that a sitter is a surogate momy or dady . In a psychelogical therapy not . But most people who want a sitter in a non psychelogical therapy session want one because they are sccared .

I think every psychedelic experience should be seen as a (self-administered) psychological therapy session, otherwise what's the meaning of psychedelic?

Aside from that, I don't think many people actually want a sitter (though many want a "shaman"). There have been no requests for a sitter on this forum, for example. And that's what worries me: no one wants a sitter, because no one sees the need for a sitter, and no one has a clue what a sitter should and shouldn't do either. But a good sitter would take care of all the things you mentioned, like set & setting, proper dosage etc.

 

[GOD]

To the first part .

Yes , people can have dificult sessions and bad ones . The dificult ones can be better for learning / chsangeing oneself / ones views than a bad one . From a bad session the most people only learn not to do it again .

If anyone thinks that they are garanteed to have a good time or see god then they havent done enough research / havent taken care of set and setting .

Panic attacks are posible without drugs , i`ve had them standing in the que at the superr market .

I once had a mushroom trip where someone , a nasty gangster , had tried to give me a bad trip . I went home and spent the night with all the lights off , the doors and windows closed squating in the corner with my back to the wall with an axe in my hand . Personaly that didnt bother me as it was a big axe . = OK i was paranoid but even when i was i enjoyed the trip .

To the second part .

Those people had latent psychelogical problems . Maybe / probably ? they took the drug and were confronted with their real selves , without the act that most / all ? people put on and didnt like what they saw .

"I think every psychedelic experience should be seen as a (self-administered) psychological therapy session, otherwise what's the meaning of psychedelic? "

Yes . But basicaly we are talking about two diferent things . Takeing it with a psychologist / theraputist for the reasons that a person goes to such people , and takeing it without those reasons . ( i think that for a first trip its much better to take a good strong dose with an experienced person who has also had the same dose ) .

The thing about a shaman . That was one of the reasons why i wanted to see the sub titles in that Rätsch film . Because he made a clear distinction between what most peoiple call / see as a shaman and the real thing . Real shaman are very few and far between . Most of the ones who call themselves / are called shaman are money babas / arse holes .

Also i dont see much / any diference between a real psychedelic therapist and a shaman . The shaman cant do anything the therapist cant . Shaman have no more power , other than the belief that some people might project on them , than a good therapist . They dont have acess to other worlds or more "power" .

I think that at least several people on this forum would like a sitter and have made that clear but this forum isnt the place to ask for one . No one has made any adverts that they are a sitter and the people live to far apart and dont realy know other members . But , i`ve had PMs from people askeing if i do sessions / sittings and if i do can they take part . Plus remember when you had your idea about you doing the psychonaut hotel / guided tours that there was at least one person who asked about Ayahuasca sessions ? And that there is always interest expressed when the subject comes to "shaman" visiting Holland . If / when you get qualifyed i dont think youll have a lack of peoiple wanting sessions with you .

 

[maxfreakout]

I think every psychedelic experience should be seen as a (self-administered) psychological therapy session, otherwise what's the meaning of psychedelic?

yeah i totally agree with this too, that is exactly what a psychedelic experience is, the drugs are the ultimate psychotherapists

 

[HeartCore]

I think every psychedelic experience should be seen as a (self-administered) psychological therapy session, otherwise what's the meaning of psychedelic?

Psychedelic means soul manifesting, or at least something along those lines. And I don't agree with you, people should use the psychedelic experience for whatever they see fit in their lives. Since the sixties there are a number of things that people use it for (not limited too):

- self administered therapy
- mysticism
- Rekindle inspiration/art/music
- technological inspiration 3D/Vr tech.

And it seems to do a great job in all of these fields. Stan Grof is a psychiatrist so naturally his work is biased to psychiatric value of the psychedelic experience. But to say all experience should be about that, is a very unrealistic and limiting point of view.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

The thing is that for me the realms of psychology and mysticism are nondifferent from each other, though the two fields might use different terminology. Psychological self-actualization and spiritual liberation, they are the same to me. You can't have one without the other. Therefore the word therapy has a very wide range of meanings to me.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Yes , people can have dificult sessions and bad ones . The dificult ones can be better for learning / chsangeing oneself / ones views than a bad one . From a bad session the most people only learn not to do it again .

Yes! Yes! Exactly my point. Experiences may be difficult, but they shouldn't have a bad ending.

as it was a big axe

:lol:

Also i dont see much / any diference between a real psychedelic therapist and a shaman . The shaman cant do anything the therapist cant . Shaman have no more power , other than the belief that some people might project on them , than a good therapist . They dont have acess to other worlds or more "power" .

Yes, I very much agree with that. I think the shamans of the future, i.e. those operating in this crazy world called Western society, should be skilled like the LSD therapists of yore, but focusing more on assisting psychologically healthy individuals in attaining valuable peak experience.

Haha, I've got some very blissful Danish tourists in the shop. I've got to do some sitting now actually. But all is well. They're already ecstatic.

Let me put on...Shpongle!

 

[GOD]

"- self administered therapy
- mysticism
- Rekindle inspiration/art/music
- technological inspiration 3D/Vr tech."

In the way i mean the word therapy all those things fit into my definition of it . Answering questions , solveing issues and breaking mental blockades .

 

[HeartCore]

The thing is that for me the realms of psychology and mysticism are nondifferent from each other, though the two fields might use different terminology. Psychological self-actualization and spiritual liberation, they are the same to me. You can't have one without the other. Therefore the word therapy has a very wide range of meanings to me.

But thats only dealing with half of the answer, convenient for you but unfortunately completely missing the point.

Btw, you can have one without the other, an example would be bullshit, which don't nescessarily need a bull for to provide.

 

[GOD]

Can you please explain about the only one half . Whats the other half .

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

But thats only dealing with half of the answer, convenient for you but unfortunately completely missing the point.

It wasn't meant to be a specific answer to your question. I agree these experiences serve other purposes as well, like providing inspiration for artists, scientists etc.

 

[maxfreakout]

The thing is that for me the realms of psychology and mysticism are nondifferent from each other, though the two fields might use different terminology. Psychological self-actualization and spiritual liberation, they are the same to me. You can't have one without the other. Therefore the word therapy has a very wide range of meanings to me.

yes it's only a problem of language that people tend to make distinctions between psychological issues and spiritual issues, they are both exactly the same thing really, because they are both, at the centre, concerned with THE MIND

this is reflected in Abraham Maslow's terminology to describe expansions of consciousness, he wanted to completely remove any connotation of spirituality/mysticism/religion and remain entirely secular, so he referred to these transformative experiences as 'peak' experience. But really, this is precisely synonymous with 'religious' 'mystical' 'spiritual' experiences, they are just different words being used to describe the same thing

 

[IJesusChrist]

I think it would be important for some of you to realize this:

Everyone experiences trips differently in some respects. If one were to have a seperate guide from oneselves one could experience something new.

For those of you veteran trippers that only go it alone, this would be hard for you to accept, but to place yourself in the hands of someone else @ 650ug could be mind-opening.

 

[Ahuaeynjxs]

My own experiences have nothing to do with religion or mysticism... to me those elements are totally fake and added upon the tapestry of humanity to cause extinction by culmination of extreme frustrations, which many people are aware of now.

I see what you mean in a way ; but when I had astral voyages on the amanita for example, I did not see god, nor I was mystified by any of the elements of the trip, I know exactly what was going on in my mind and why I lived it. On the amanita for example, the process does not include ego death at all, yet to me it is more intense than any psychedelic, definately a few notches higher in magnitude, ego death seems like an ankle height dip in comparison... well at least that my opinion.

Edit : I would probably make my sitter go nuts at 650 mcg, I would finally make him realise that I am sitting him and he's just keeping the place clean.

 

[Brugmansia]

That's why I prefer a decent amount of cacti over acid anytime.

Firstly staring, then getting drowsy, urge to nap, falling asleep is expected but ... not losing any mind control or lucidity, the body safely being stored into a crypt, it's there, but I am physically anywhere else as well. Well almost, the line can be cut off with a massive amount of peyotes. It's an intellectual dream with frank open fields, it does hardly anything alone, you'll have to activate the set in yourself.

The near weightless floating when walking due to the downfall of gravity is distinctive, no longer it took me energy to stand up and jump around. And everytime I bounced back on the ground it felt as I came down on a bunch of feathers.