MAOIs FACTS

[MindAstronaut]

Hmm this reminds me that i maybe had a placebo of lsd somewhile ago.

I got some stamps from a friend of mine this was before my first lsd experience.
And i had to split some becouse i shared them with a other buddie.

And i accidentally touched some of the blotters very briefly,
and i was thinking with my paranoid head that i maybe started to trip of that.
after an houre or so i started to see very mild halucinations, more like annoying cous i wanted to sleep and this very mild effect lasted about 10 hours.

And afther a while i visted the dealer my self for some more acid,
and he pulled out a bigass sheet of lsd and started to divide them with his bare hands, and i was like Huh!?! and he sad to me that it was almost impossible to trip off, unless your hand are sweaty or wet..

 

[Goran.Hrsak]

Everything is placebo reality itself is. therefore LSD, Salvia, shrooms, Cannabis, DMT are all placeboes. the truth is that your brain expects effects from these substances and therefore he replies to it actually responding to the chemicals.

Than I will give you acid or morphine in the meal and when you will!! reacive effect you CAN't call them placibo.

 

[GOD]

Thanks Heartcore , The book was the one from Allegro about "mushrooms" in the bible . Maybe we could do a swop , i`m sure i have media to swop that will interest you and / or anyone else if you send me a private message please ?

I´m glad to hear that one of you goes to university , hopefully that means that we can raise the level of this discusion . As a university student you understand what level of education , intelligence and honesty people have to show to get to university . You will also understand the level of "proof" that one needs to provide to be taken seriously by "experts" and to pass exams . I , like most people who make the laws that control drugs , and all the "normal" people out there , want a factual level of proof for things , the same level that a court has , that science and universitys work with . We will never get legalisation or stop the drug inquisition if we cant prove what we say and if we keep making claims that have no scientific basis , thats why his holyness T.Mckenna had so much trouble with , and was totaly rejected by , the established scientific world .

Up till now your level of "proof" was :-

1:- Uncle terrance said so , so it must be true .
2:- My friends next door neighbour did it one time ten years ago .
3:- I did it one time ten years ago .
4:- My sister goes to university .
5:- I read subjective individual reports of a small group of unqualified people making pseudo scientific claims on three web sites .
6:- Shulgin , Mckenna , Ott , Rätsch and Nichols dont say what they clearly do say .
7:- 2 x "You are a lier"
8:- your boreing
9:- your an idiot
10:- you are deluded .

One doesnt get a university degree by quoting "facts" like that ?

1:- I have heard his holyness T.Mckenna make claims about MAOIs . The man was a wonderfull story teller , a phantast , but not an internationaly respected scientist like the other people i mentioned . A middle class drug tourist who had a nervous break down in the amazon jungle , ( Read his book "True hallucinations" ) and because of wich he got abandoned by his friends and then by his brother , and when he got home divorced by his wife , does not get taken seriously by rational people when he makes idiotic / mentaly suspect claims about maschine elves ( after explainig that he had read gulivers travels !!! ) , time wave zero , the I-ching , the voynicht manuscript or morphological fields .

Anyway i dont think that its corect of you , in good taste to present T.Mckenna "facts" in your proofs , the mans dead and cant explain himself .

The first people to my knowledge who made these claims about MAOIs were Grazie and Zarkov , they claimed that harmala was halucinogenic and that it potentiated mushrooms , mescalin and LSD . They were totaly disqualified a few years later when it was proved that the chemical that they had claimed was a harmala alkaloid was found to be DMT .

5:- This is one of the big problems with the internet , erowid and wankipedia , a lot of it is unqualified subjective CRAP or endless lists of contradictry pseudo "facts". Thats why the makers of wankypedea are making a new project / web site with information by real experts .

6:- The only(?) reason that i can think of that someone should not understand what Ott , Mckenna , Nichols , Ratsch and Shulgin clearly say is that perhaps they are reading books in my native language , by people who speak my native language , written in my native language and its not their native language ? Mckenna and Nichols clearly say above in a quote i used in this thread why MAOIs cant / dont have the same effects on psylocybin as it does on DMT , because of steric hindrance , because of its "tail" . Shulgin says on page 295 of Tihkal , talking about experiments with diferent drugs and MAOIs " Recently , however ,there has been a move to explore many other well known drugs as this second component , perhaps illogicaly , in that all these are well established as being oraly active " "it is almost as if the P.Harmala is being called upon to play a roll of modifyer or enhancer ( or even to an extent, contributer ) of activity, rather than one of being a simple revealer of activity . This brings up the vital question : If P.Harmala can directly contribute to the action of another drug by some process other than that of potentiation or synergism , or simply allowing this other drug to become oraly active due to its presence , then it would have a pharmacological action in its own right . What is the action of P. Harmala all by itself ? " . On page 300 he talks about P.Harmala also containing a chemical called vasicine wich is an acetylcholinesterase inhibiter(?) . He says "This ( acetylcholinesterase ) is the bodys detoxifying operater for getting the neurotransmitter acetylcholine out of the synapses when it is no longer needed to conduct a signal from one nerve to another . If the transmitter can not be destroyed after it has functioned , the nerve system keeps firing and produces what is called parasympathetic toxicity . There can be cardiac depression , vasodilation and the flow of saliva and tears . Anticholinergics ( like vasicine ) are members of a pharmacological classification that includes the best of our insecticides and nerve gasses . " = The first Shulgin quote says it doesnt work and the second gives an example of what realy could be happening .

From "The encyclopedia of psychoactive plants" by C.Rätsch on pages 837 and 838 . In 1969 a chilean psychiatrist Claudio Naranjo said that harmala alkaloids were psychoactive , Rätsch says is questionable if they realy are psychoactive , that this is not believed by the most experementalists who believe that he was talking about ayahuasca and not harmala alkaloids alone . Rätsch also talks about harmala self experiments to prove psychoactivity by Maurer , Lamparter and Dittrich which ended with the same negative results , as did the experiments by J.Ott in "Pharmacothean" and A.Shulgin in "Tihkal" .

"ARE WE SURE THAT RUE or any MAOI containing PLANT DOESN'T ITSELF CONTAIN SEROTONIN-LIKE SUBSTANCES (or in another view that these people might have injested serotonin-like substances without knowing) THAT CAUSE EFFECTS?"

Even if it did the harmala alkaloids would neutralise them , and if we have been doing it properly we have not eaten for 4 hours before and have nothing in our stomachs that anything could react with anyway .

The bit about the mushrooms containing a rest of DMT was a good idea but if they do there is not enough DMT to have any effects . = There would have to be 20 - 50 mg of DMT in the dose one took , wich would mean that one could get a DMT trip by smoking an oraly effective dose of psilocybin mushrooms , wich one can not , even with green socks on and a plastic bag over ones head . Where can i find the DMT in mushrooms info please ?

"Shulgin has spoken in an interview about the reaction between rue or chemical maois and shrooms" Where please ? What did he say ?

Where can i find the information mentioned about "pinoline" ? , or can anyone explain anything they have heard about it to me please ?

Goran.Hrsak , I think your idea of blind tests i very good , exactly what we need , objective thinking . Proof . Thanx .

Meduzz i agree with the first part you said to the word , thanx , but not the second . If you read what i quoted earlyer it says that psilocybin is "invisible" to the MAO reaction . Thats why its oraly active . MAO cant see it because of the tail .

MindAstronaut , Thanx for your objectivity and honesty . That was a good example of the typ of thing i mean , i`v had similar things when i baby sit for people on trips , i get well beamed .
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maxfreakout Please choose your words with a bit more care , i dont like being insulted . Perhaps you should think about why you are so vehament and agressive . The person you mention is not a recognised international expert like the people i have quoted . What he writes is subjective crap . He offers no proof or sources of information to back up his claims , just like you . In english i can think of three diferent ways to explain what someone could mean when they say " what it says " :-

What it actualy says
the meaning of what it says
and the conclusions that one makes when one understands the meaning of what it says

"No it isn't up to me, my own personal experience of the rue/shroom combination has already proven to me that there is a significant potentiation, that's all i need"

With that comment you have outed yourself , you have proven that you dont know what you are talking about . That you are a victim of your own ego and unable to be objective . I havent made any claims . The claim was made that Peganum Harmala can potentiate Psilocybin . I have asked for proof , no proof has been offered . I have offered proof that it does not .I have never claimed that there is no effect in taking mushrooms with MAOIs , i have said that there definately is an effect , but that its psychelogical and toxicity .
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After looking in google i cant understand why no one can find information about the fact that P.Harmala has been used for thousands of years from Marocco , across the middle east and large parts of central and south west asia against digestive problems . One of the many places i have read about it was in "The encyclopedia of psychoactive plants" by C.Rätsch on page 426 in the fourth paragraph and on page 427 in the fifth paragraph - he says people who have the farts drink a tee made from 5 -10 grams of P.Harmala . On page 427 in paragraph 6 he says the beduine of the negev desert drink a tee made from the seeds of P.Harmala against stomach problems , heart problems and ischias .In the koran it says "Every root , every leaf of harmel is watched by an angel , waiting for a person that comes looking for healing" .
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So to recap and get things back in perspective again :-

What you say :-

P.Harmala / MAOIs can be used to potentiate Psilocybin other than through toxicalogical and / or psychelogical effects . That you dont have any psychelogical or toxic effects , or that you can diferentiate between the psychelogical and toxic effects you get and an "X" factor . You dont explain what this "X" factor is or how it could work .

I say :-

There is no scientific proof that taking P.Harmala with Psilocybin has any other potentiating effects than psychelogical and / or toxic ones . If P.Harmala potentiates psilocybin why doesnt it potentiate a smaler than normaly halucinogenic dose to make it psychoactive ?

I say , and i say the experts / quotes i mention say :-

That psilocybin has no problem geting to the brain
That psilocybin is "invisible" to the MAO reaction because of stearic hinderance = Psilocybin is the wrong shape because of its tail
That Peganum harmala has no psychedelic / psychoactive effects on its own
That Peganum harmala has toxic effects
That Peganum harmala has psychelogical effects
That if we havent eaten for four hours previously there is nothing in the stomach that anything can react with .
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I keep answering all your questions here why hasn`t anyone answered any of mine ??? Life is not a childrens pantomime or monty python film where every time i say "it isnt" you all chant back "oh yes it is " . What about you all offering some REAL OBJECTIVE FACTS , a model of what is going on acording to your private personal theories , an explenation of how MAOIs could potentiate psilocybin mushrooms ? An explanation of how you claim to diferentiate between the toxic and psycholoigical effects that this mixture definately has and your secret , unknown to science "X" factor ? What exactly is this "X" factor ? Could someone also please explain to me if P.Harmala potentiates psilocybin why doesnt it make a less than normaly active dose active ? = Why doesnt it potentiate .1 or .5 of a gramm of P.Semilanceata to make it psychoactive ?

I think for some people here this is an ego thing , that they think that they are above psychelogical effects . Lets try to keep the "facts" and personalitys seperate = not take ourselves / egos to seriously ? I dont see a wining or loosing situation here , i think we are all wining by talking about it , that we will all win when we can explain what is or isnt hapening when one takes MAOIs and psilocybin together .

I LOVE the idea of asking uncle alexander , but lets decide on the wording of the question first . What about something similar to my recap above ?

 

[Goran.Hrsak]

I could try to give you simple answer which for me holds the water. By the way I do not know why would anyone mix Peganum with shrooms cause shrooms are psydelic by itself. And psilocin is 5-HT2 agonist isn't it? Why psilocin and not psylocibin? Because this substance doesn't have agonistic value and (words after are not for sure true) when liver or some other organ take phosphor out of psylocibin, psilocin comes out meaning psilocin is psydelic substance metabolised from shrooms. And MAOi (MAOi-type A)are substances that doesn't let to serotonin(all types) and norepinephrine to come back into presynaptic vessels from which is serotonin realised to synaptic hole and by this way increase number of serotoninergic action on post synaptic triggers. Very simple explanation. Action on 'serotonin destroyers' induce larger number of active serotonin on post synaptic hole by serotonin agonist like psilocin.

What Yu think?

 

[Dantediv86]

Everything is placebo reality itself is. therefore LSD, Salvia, shrooms, Cannabis, DMT are all placeboes. the truth is that your brain expects effects from these substances and therefore he replies to it actually responding to the chemicals.

Than I will give you acid or morphine in the meal and when you will!! reacive effect you CAN't call them placibo.

I was just kidding.. :wink: of course these substances have an effect! it depends on how they bind!

 

[Dantediv86]

GOD.....this lazy muther******* a*se hole who also goes to university thanks thine divine keyboard for this proof.
needless say
good job
there is nothing people could post from now on that would disproove your point unless backed up by an equally astonishing proof such as this one
i kneel and bow humbly to your presence on this forum i am but a mere tick of the system.
with this i shall leave this thread and bugger off to some other place....as i should have done posts ago.

PS i won't/haven't written an answer to you 'cause
1 i never claimed anything
2 i am a lazy ***************
3 i'm writing another kind of proof for another kind of subject in an entirely different way and the 5 minutes of time free i have from breakfast to study and lunch to study and dinner to study i spend reading posts on my favourite subject and commenting
peace

 

[phalaris]

That psilocybin has no problem geting to the brain
[quote:2g5c3m3b]That psilocybin is "invisible" to the MAO reaction because of stearic hinderance = Psilocybin is the wrong shape because of its tail

That Peganum harmala has no psychedelic / psychoactive effects on its own
That Peganum harmala has toxic effects
That Peganum harmala has psychelogical effects
That if we havent eaten for four hours previously there is nothing in the stomach that anything can react with [/quote:2g5c3m3b]


What part of DMT and psilocybin are you comparing ? The NN methylated tails are precisely those part that do match and therefore cannot be responsable for triggering the MAO proteins. Also keep in mind that all (bio)chemical reactions are equilibrium reactions, so it would be not so surprising that harmala alkaloids would potentiate psilocybin, but to what extend ? There could even be a sort of threshold effect, so that it begins working only past a certain concentrion. Enough things to guess, I guess)).

So, we can guess and do wishfull thinking all we want, but in the end only good prepared experiments can give answers to these questions. Trying to exactly predict the effect of molecules by their structure in a network of equilibrium reactions is extremely difficult, and is more a guesstimation than deterministic. Which is a good thing, otherwise it would mean that we had fully working reality simulator and there would be a lot less to discover

I can, however, understand your frustration about half hear-say arguments stated as facts. But do no discard or underestimate the value of the personal interpretation of a drug experience. A few years ago, I attended a lecture about psychoactives. In that lecture biological mechanisms were given of cocaine and amphetamine. The conclusion was that they both should have about the same effect on the body. At the time, it seemed logical and I thought nothing of it until I finally had experience with both compounds. In my experience, they only somewhat share the stimulating effect on the body. But even that, the time scales are entirely different. So while these experiences are not objective by definition, and few people claim they are, the experiences can provide hints, and lead to new insights. Discarding trip reports and holding on to a too deterministic model will blind research. Guessing and speculation in a more formal form is an essential part of the scientific method, but then the speculation is called hypothese or research question.


--
So, digging through literature, as GOD has done, has good value. It is a good attempt at making sence of it all. (@god tnx, must haven taken hours).

..and about Terence. Personnaly I think he was a loony, but in a positive way. He had many great visionary ideas, I just don't take it literally what he had to say.

- So, : has anbody heard (and has referece ) of anyone taking a huge dose of DMT orally, and described the effects ?

- Has anybody heard of actually smoking extracted psilocybin (not mushrooms, this would mean smoking a awfull lot of material).
If the effect indeed are the same as DMT, it would hint that the "psychedelic pathways"in the body are the same. In that case, the dangling OH on psylocibin prevents it from being attacked by MAO proteins. (yes, all guesstimations).

- Ringed alkaloids (like the harmala alkaloids) can be psychoactive, and even acting on the 5-HT receptors like
mCPP. Again, testing these alkaloids on humans is the way to go. How can one tell a cat is tripping ?

Goran.Hrsak: nice thoughts. I makes me realise I need to read up again on the whole topic of neurotransmitters/agonist etc.

I assumed the MAO proteine systems was only active in the digestion trackt ? There must be some active mechanism to remove DMT from the body (as it only active for a short perios), but that can also be a parralel system to MAO .

..now, lets find some docs dealing with neurotransmitter receptors..

 

[GOD]

Eating bats blood , baby fat and frogs eyes give a dose of LSD a real interesting twist . And i can tell 100% that my cat is not triping .

The catch 22 aspect , toxic is relative to if you are a scientist or a freak = science calls the psychoactive effects of all drugs toxicity = i cant loose because its all toxicity .

The whole thing about the toxicity and the imaginary part is true for ayahuasca analogs as well = it`s not any "worse" for your body than taking an ayahuasca analog .

Goran.Hrsak , All the girls and me get pizas with 100 mg cocaine , 500 mg extacy and 500 mics of LSD , all the others get 50 - 60 mgs of valium in theirs . I`m not sure if i understand what you mean . You mean MAOIs stop seretonin being re uptaken so its wandering round in the brain trying to dock on the same receptors that the psilocin docks on ? Two diferent systems , one in the gut and one in the brain dealing with used transmiters . I`m not sure how and / or where P.Harmala or MAO/Is work , so i cant realy say anything about that . I have read that they effect the serototonin , acetylcholine and GHB(?) / GABA systems and used to be given against depression and parkinsons sickness .

Phalaris , The bit about psilocybin as compaired to DMT :-

" The 4-sub position in psilocybin is actually quite important because the NNdimethyl "tail" can swing around and form a complex with the "O" at the 4 position, making it impervious to MAO in the gut " ( DMT cant ) .

" Psilocin is orally active because, in the charged, physiological state you get a weak hydrogen bonding between the indole HO- (which is deproteinated) and the side-chain nitrogen (which is protonated). So you do get that steric hindrance happening that protects it from MAO ". ( DMT is not )

If we did not have fantasy humanity would be absolutly and totaly fucked , lots of new ideas were called hokus pokus at first , but if we didnt chalenge things we would not learn how to think for our selves and would end up living in a shit world like this one .

Oraly active DMT . You mean a DMT blitz krieg denyal of service attack ??? Sounds some where between very expensive and not enough or very expensive and fryed brain on toast . Hiting a 50 - 60 mg dose window by throwing unknown "X" quantities of DMT at it sounds a bit drastic to me ? How many run ups are you going to have if you can only increase your dose 10 mgs every time ? If my body can neutralise all the things that im not suposed to eat with MAOIs normaly , then it must have a big potential = if i can eat 15 brewers yeast tablets , a bar of chocolate and 250 grams of cream chese in half an hour without my MAO system breaking down then the amount of DMT you might have to eat to bypass it could also be in the same scale range , 3 - 600 grams , or more = 100s of tries , each a week apart , increasing in 10 mg doses , maybe going up to 3 - 600 grams or more ? K.O.?

Vaporising psilocybin or psilocin to try to see if one got a flash comparable to that of DMT ? Sounds interesting .

I dont have a cat .

 

[Goran.Hrsak]

'GOD' you are not so familiar with neurochemistry aren't you? MAOi act in two different ways- first one is liver enzymes that are destroying substances like DMT and partially tyrosine. Second you have MAO in yours every neuron cell! When every neurotransmitter is realised and when he act on post synapse he return to his position or else way it is destroyed by MAOi realised from presynapse! This is equilibrium and without it your synapse will be overflowed with neurotransmitters! How to say it easy? This is why you can't mix SSRI with MAOi cause SSRI doesn't let to serotonin to come back to presynapse and MAOi effect doesn't decompose it, and of course you will get what is called Maligned Serotonin Syndrome, because yours synaptic hole will be overflowed with serotonin. Without MAO you will die for sure.

 

[buffachino]

So using this model, taking X and mushrooms together with an MAOI would be the best way to potentiate a trip.

As the E moves your psilocin (I’m guessing it would follow the same action because of its close chemical similarity to serotonin.) and serotonin back to the synapse, the molecules that escape into the pre-synapse wouldn’t be metabolised by the MAO because of the inhibition and so go on to re-enter the synapse via the axon & E effected transporters, thus increasing and prolonging the effects! I would imagine this would be dangerous though because of risk of serotonin syndrome and the chance your mind may implode because of the rate at which it’s getting information.

Has anyone tried this specifically and noticed dramatic differences in the range or hight of the effects?

Goran: You hit it on the head mate! BUT...
"This is why you can't mix SSRI with MAOI cause SSRI doesn't let to serotonin to come back to pre-synapse..."

SSRI's completely block the reuptake transporters; they wouldn’t let anything through, to or from the synapse. Neurotransmitters wouldn’t build up until after the Prozac wares off or they would congregate in the synapse itself, MAO wouldn’t have anything to do until those transporters are free, unless dopamine could get through somehow and end up causing toxicity.

 

[Goran.Hrsak]

You have forgotten that acting of SSRI and MAOi is not 100% on whole number of realised neurotransmitters! This is why Harmaline is better MAOi than selegiline. And SSRI increase number of synaptic serotonin and because that post-synapse builds up serotonin receptors because it is stimulated to do that, why, cause serotonin can't just be in synaptic hole. And every SSRI have serotoninergic acting meaning something like 3% of ecstasy. SSRI is complex thing which even pharmacist doesn't know how to really explain, all we have is theory, yours, my and generally accepted by scientists.

 

[GOD]

I have next to no knowledge about neurotransmitterrs or chemistry , only what an ignorant person can gather from books , news paper artikels and TV . Thanks for the info . Is MAO only in the liver and brain ? , i read about it being in the gut ?

MAOIs block the brains mechanism for destroying and / or re-uptaking serotonine , causing , amongst other things , Maligned Serotonin Syndrome , = TOXICITY , MAO has no effect on the psilocybin itself as it cant see it . The psilocybin gets destroyed by other mechanisms at the same rate as it would normaly , so you cant get two trips from the same Psilocybin . ( If it didnt one could take an MAOI with Psilocybin and trip for as long as the MAOI effect lasted ) But because of the actions of the MAOI , the system is flooded with toxins similar to brain transmiters and excess serotonin , so there are continualy more things competing to dock with the receptors , meaning it makes it HARDER to reach the level of Psilocybin to get a trip .

Lets forget extacy and prozac , however interesting they are , and concentrate on do MAOIs potentiate Psilocybin , and if so , how , please .

I looked at the site where you can ask Alexander Shulgin questions , it looks like it might take a long time . I am going to ask the MAPS forum , if any one else can think of anywhere else we can ask it would be a big help .

 

[Roeligan]

This thread has been dead for some time, but since GOD asked me to shine my light on this subject I have performed cardiac massage and it worked! The thread is alive again!

I think some misunderstandings should be illuminated.
An MAO is the enzyme that catalyses the oxidation (destruction) of monoamines, the MAOi inhibits this reaction, so it slows (not stop!) de degration of monoamines.
Psilocybin and psilocin are monoamines, so taking a MAOi slows the destruction of psilocybin and pilocin. This would mean that MAOi's would prolong a trip and because MAO's are found in the digestive tract aswell as in the brain, less psilocin would be destructed before absorption and therefore more psilocin could reach the brain and induce a trip, so taking a MAOi would intensify aswell as prolong a trip.
I hope you guys can make use of this info.
Love,
Roel

 

[GOD]

aaaaaaAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!! How cute , me against the rest again !!!! Life starts to get that little bit more challenging , with the emphasis on little . A fight on several fronts might cause me to have to use more than two brain cells to tango with you all as was the case up till now.........wich was getting boring .

So Roeligan , that was a nice try ......BUT . Firstly the thread wasnt only about MOAIs and possible Psilocybin potentiation , it was realy about peoples claims that P.Harmala can potentiate Psilocybin mushrooms . I should have made that clearer but i didnt think that i could get that all in in the title . Have we read all of the thread or are we ignoring all the evidence i have brought up up untill now ??? What about the evidence that i have used from ...... qualified ...... experts . Like Icono , D.Mckenna , C.Rätsch , D.Nichols , A.Shulgin and J.Ott ???
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http://www.gnosticmedia.com/communion/v ... .php?t=171

From a letter from Jan Irving of "Psychotic Inquisition" fame to D.Mckenna:-

"I wanted to ask you about the 4-substitution making psilocybin orally active, can you shed more light on this subject?"

and

"forward from icono "The 4-sub position is actually quite important, even if it's not unique. Ever wonder why you can take psilocybin orally and it's active without an MAOI unlike, say DMT, or 5MEO? It's because the NNdimethyl "tail" can swing around and form a complex with the "O" at the 4 position, making it impervious to MAO in the gut. That's from a Dennis McKenna talk by the way. So if you don't chuck the whole idea, you might say something like the 4-subbed position makes it active orally all by itself, allowing mind expansion with simple ingestion, unlike its parent structure, DMT which has to be combined with an MAOI to be effective through the gut."

Did we understand that ? Psilocybin is impervious to MAO . ( Impervious = 1:- not permitting penetration or passage ; impenetrable . 2:- incapable of being injured or impaired . 3:- incapable of being influenced, persuaded, or affected .)

D.Mckenna replied:-

"Regarding Icono's comments above, he has it exactly right. It’s true that apparently Psilocin is orally active is because , in the charged, physiological state you get a weak hydrogen bonding between the indole HO- (which is deproteinated) and the side-chain nitrogen (which is protonated). So you do get that steric hindrance happening that protects it from MAO. This is not from me, by the way, this is straight from the guru of chemistry himself, Dave Nichols!"

Did we understand that ? Steric hindrance protects Psilocin from MAO . ( Himderance = 1:- The act of hindering or obstructing or impeding . 2:- Impeding, stopping, preventing . Protects = To keep from being damaged, attacked, or injured .)

For the T.Mckenna fan club a little straight left and a right hook to the jaw from the same page.........

Jan Irvin said to D.Mckenna in two letters:-

"Someone [icono] has informed us that the statements made by you and Terence about the nature of psilocybin, are incorrect. " and "Terence had (I believe) at one time mentioned that 4-hydroxy is only found in psilocybin mushrooms, and was therefore a sort of "alien" substance."

and

"This is from chemist [icono]," , "He’s helping us make sure this section about DMT clears up the mistakes in Terence’s description," .

D.Mckenna replied:-

"I don’t believe I ever said that psilocybin and/or psilocin are the only 4-substituted indoles in nature"

and

"Terence was not a chemist, and occasionally made statements that were less than accurate when it came to chemistry" .
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A.Shulgin says in Tihkal on page 295 talking about people trying to potentiate allready psychoactive substances:-

" Recently , however ,there has been a move to explore many other well known drugs as this second component , perhaps illogicaly , in that all these are well established as being oraly active " "it is almost as if the P.Harmala is being called upon to play a roll of modifyer or enhancer ( or even to an extent, contributer ) of activity, rather than one of being a simple revealer of activity . This brings up the vital question : If P.Harmala can directly contribute to the action of another drug by some process other than that of potentiation or synergism , or simply allowing this other drug to become oraly active due to its presence , then it would have a pharmacological action in its own right . What is the action of P. Harmala all by itself ? "

On page 300 he talks about P.Harmala also containing a chemical called vasicine wich is an acetylcholinesterase inhibiter .

He says:-

"This ( acetylcholinesterase ) is the bodys detoxifying operater for getting the neurotransmitter acetylcholine out of the synapses when it is no longer needed to conduct a signal from one nerve to another . If the transmitter can not be destroyed after it has functioned , the nerve system keeps firing and produces what is called parasympathetic toxicity . There can be cardiac depression , vasodilation and the flow of saliva and tears . Anticholinergics ( like vasicine ) are members of a pharmacological classification that includes the best of our insecticides and nerve gasses . "

= The first Shulgin quote says it doesnt work and the second gives an example of what realy could be happening .
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On the point that A.Shulgin brought up:-

"If P.Harmala can directly contribute to the action of another drug by some process other than that of potentiation or synergism , or simply allowing this other drug to become oraly active due to its presence , then it would have a pharmacological action in its own right . What is the action of P. Harmala all by itself ? "

From "The encyclopedia of psychoactive plants" by C.Rätsch on pages 837 and 838 . In 1969 a chilean psychiatrist Claudio Naranjo said that harmala alkaloids were psychoactive , Rätsch says is questionable if they realy are psychoactive , that this is not believed by the most experementalists who believe that he was talking about ayahuasca and not harmala alkaloids alone . Rätsch also talks about harmala self experiments to prove psychoactivity by Maurer , Lamparter and Dittrich which ended with the same negative results , as did the experiments by J.Ott in "Pharmacothean" and A.Shulgin in "Tihkal" .
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I say :-

1:- There is no scientific proof that taking P.Harmala with Psilocybin has any other potentiating effects than psychelogical and / or toxic ones .
2:- If P.Harmala potentiates psilocybin why doesnt it potentiate a smaler than normaly halucinogenic dose to make it psychoactive ? = Why doesnt it potentiate .1 or .5 of a gramm of P.Semilanceata to make it psychoactive ?

I say , and i say the experts / quotes i mention say :-

That psilocybin has no problem geting to the brain
That psilocybin is "invisible" to the MAO reaction because of stearic hinderance = Psilocybin is ignored by MAO because of its "tail" .
That Peganum harmala has no psychedelic / psychoactive effects on its own .
That Peganum harmala has toxic effects . MAOIs block the brains mechanism for destroying and / or re-uptaking serotonine , causing , amongst other things , Maligned Serotonin Syndrome .
That Peganum harmala has psychelogical effects .
That if we havent eaten for four hours previously there is nothing in the stomach that P.Harmala / MAOIs can react with to cause the Psilocybin / Psilocin to work more .
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You are what you eat . George oshiwa . What have you been eating........

Love GOD

 

[Roeligan]

Hmm, you are right, I haven't read the whole thread and have missed quite some arguments.
This evidence seems pretty convincing, and after reading some more on the kinetics of the MAO enzyme I must agree with you. The enzymes kinetics are not able to "cut off" the N on the tail of the molecule because the negatively charged OH (or PO4) binds this tail quite tightly. But the molecule is not always in this curled up state, it swaps a little between being curled up and being un-curled up, but strongly in favor of the curled up state. MAO cán see psilocybin when uncurled, so when an MAO accidentally bumps into an un-curled psilocyn it will degrade it and so I think a very small enhancement can be expected, but probably not enough to be noticable and taking a MAOi brings along so much danger and problems finding a suitable diet that I think one could probably better take a gram shrooms more then trying to potentiate a trip with P. Harmala.

 

[tryptonaut]

I admit I have read only 1/3 of the thread (missed out on all of the technical details and most of the chemistry which I don't have a clue of).

However, I am a man of science and I want to test it again. I have a few grams of P. Harmala seeds left and I am willing to do it again, just to confirm my first experience.

I had my first life-shattering experience with roughly 8g shrooms (only shrooms) that made me re-think my whole life. I died and was re-born. I didn't know what ego-death meant before that night where I actually was dead for an hour. I was about to explain it further , but I can't. Believe me it was life-changing, the point where the wanna-be psychonaut became a real psychonaut. This was shrooms alone.

I tried 5g peganum harmala and about 6g shrooms a few weeks later. I had already had another 7g trip shrooms between and I had handled it well (yet it was again a confirmation of the life-changing first high-dose experience).
I was sure I could handle everything now, so I didn't try less than 5g harmala seeds and 6g shrooms.
What I expected was, well, I don't know. I took the harmala seeds (crushed and cooked in acidic water for a while) then after 20 minutes or so I drank my shroom tea (and also ate the shroom pieces, as always)). I felt nothing for an hour, but when I felt nothing at almost +2 hours I thought I had maybe under-dosed. I was really thinking about taking more shrooms to make anything happen...
Then it began... slowly I could feel the shrooms kick in. Very slowly but steadily they began to fuck my mind. I was lying in bed, feeling it crawling into my brains. After about +3 hours I knew this was not going to be it and I began to feel frightened. At +4 hours I knew this had been too much but it was still ascending. I was being lifted into another dimension where everyting could happen - I could feel the presence of beings and I knew that if freaky gnomes from outer space would enter my room and take me, it would be real. I had no more control of reality, everything that would happen would be real.
I can't really describe the difference to my other heavy shroom trips, but there was definitely something very different. I was very clear in my mind but I was so far in another dimension that it frightened me a lot. I have never ever in my life regretted taking drugs so much than that time. I was freaked out for hours, I swore to myself that if I was going to make it out of this sane (which I really didn't think I would) I would never ever in my life take any drugs again.
The trip went on forever (the peak felt like it was hours long, the coming-off went on for hours as well). It wasn't a very meaningful trip to me, but I was so definitely emerged in another, spiritual dimension for hours, with a clear mind, it was extreme.
This trip left me traumatized for two weeks - then I was able to write a first trip-report about it. I don't know what exactly was different to normal shroom trips, but it definitely was. It felt so never-ending, while I was in a relatively clear state of mind but emerged in that other dimension - it was extremely frightening.

However, I'm gonna try it again and see if I still feel the same about it. Maybe this time with a little less Harmala seeds (like 3g). I still shit my pants when I think about this trip, I have never in my life been frightened that much before...

 

[Guest]

couldn't that strange feeling be coming of an alkaloid present in P harmala, instead of a potentiated shroom trip ? as you said, you didn't reached the ego-loss scenario that you did with plain shrooms.
frightening experiences are very hard to handle during the trip, but one must learn how to do it with experience. i once had this kind of fear, and i discovered that it passed away with walking and singing. i walked more than 20Km in about 5 hours, singing and chanting in the countryside. i missed most of the visuals and thoughts, because the trip wasn't strong to the point of making me an animal. but i assure you that i understood the main idea of Plato in that trip, and it is as fresh today as it did on that afternoon.
anyway, my little contribuition to this heavy argumentation is that shrooms are enough. don't need to mix it with nothing to dive deep in our minds. in my experience, i don't think P harmala potentiates shrooms. maybe they interact in another away, changing the feel of the trip.

 

[buffachino]

On the question of chemical action of and between MAOI/psilocin within the body…

It sounds more like the nn-dimethyl tail joins with the HO on the 4 position of the indole ring in the digestive system as both an equilibrate chemical response and to prevent direct metabolism by the gut; yet when the psilocin diffuses into the brain via the blood/brain barrier, it reverts to its natural state, allowing MAO in the brain to metabolise it as usual, thus subsiding the trip as you come down.
An MAOI like rue would prevent or at least encumber this process within the brain itself, thus potentiating the intensity of the trip, because of more psilocin being readily deposited onto the receptor sites, and also would lengthen the trip duration as the bodies MAO is inhibited by the beta-carboline alkaloids for the duration of their effect.

This would result in unambiguous potentiation by ingesting these two as an amalgamation, as long as the MAOI was ingested first. This explains the action of this combination much better than simply passing it off as a placebo, or suggesting that the MAOI plant material contains additional psychoactive alkaloids besides its primary constituent in beta-carbolines, or even that there is constantly an excess of psilocybin/psilocin in a regular dose of mushrooms that enables the abundance of active alkaloids to counteract the bodies persistent MAO.

I agree that MAO and or acetylcholinesterase inhibition could induce toxicity, from overabundant neurotransmitters already within the brain at the time of or following inhibition. But this does not mean that this inhibition does not have any effect on psilocin content and comparative durability in the brain with inhibition; it in fact confirms that it must.
If the tail of the psilocin compound remained static and its method of disguise against hostile MAO persisted into the brain, this begs the question of how it is metabolised at all. Thus, it must revert back to its unbound state after entering the brain or synapse, in order for it to be broken down by the body’s mono amine oxidase. This also means that active MAO inhibition would prevent the initial breakdown of the psilocin in the synapse until inhibition had subsided, thus proving that MAOI’s potentiate mushrooms to some degree.

Hopefully this mends any confusion.

Peace.

 

[GOD]

Nice try Buff , but...... I`m tired now and cant be bothered to say anything but .....................BOLLOCKS................. at the moment . I will reply to your "theory" when my next LUCID DREAMING session is over , When my next LUCID DREAMING session is over , When my next LUCID DREAMING session is over , When my next LUCID DREAMING session is over , When my next LUCID DREAMING session is over.......over .....over.....over , When my next LUCID DREAMING session is over .

 

[tryptonaut]

my little contribuition to this heavy argumentation is that shrooms are enough. don't need to mix it with nothing to dive deep in our minds.(...) maybe they interact in another away, changing the feel of the trip.

I can totally agree with that - and I really don't need that kind of change for my trips
By the way I have tried 5g Peganum Harmala with 9g of Mimosa Hostilis once and I must say it was very close to my experience with P.H. and shrooms. Very dark and sometimes pretty frightening. In the beginning of the trip I was getting these close-eyed visions of a moonlit castle in front of me. I was standing on a long, creepy plank bridge that led to it. It looked very realistic, only back-lit in black and white - just like out of a vampire-movie.
I think P.H. is not a good substitute for ayahuasca (the caapi vine). If I ever try dmt the oral route again, I will use caapi vine for sure!