MAOIs FACTS

[maxfreakout]

and who is James Kent anyway?
ihmo he's not an authority

if you don't even know who he is, then how can you be in a position to humbly opine that he isnt an authority???? :?:


He wrote a book called 'psychedelic information theory, shamanism in the age of reason', and has written several articles in various places on the subject of psychedelics


but that is not particularly important, the issue here is that GOD made a completely absurd claim at the start of this thread, which he only backed up with information which was entirely irrelevant to the absurd claim, and i would like to get some closure on this issue.

It is an experiential FACT that MAOIs potentiate mushrooms, as well as DMT, myself, and a zillion other psychonauts, will attest to this fact. Also i have yet to see, from GOD or anyone else, one shred of information which claims otherwise, the longwinded quotes that GOD gave in the first post, do not even mention combining syrian rue with mushrooms, so why did he even quote them? And why does he not acknowledge this fact in any of is subsequent posts?

 

[Dantediv86]

GOD is claiming that MAOI's don't potentiate shrooms, here is what Jamesw Kent has to say:

[quote:1wz2s6fm]Taking a few grams of Syrian Rue forty minutes prior to ingesting psiloc(yb)in mushrooms will effectively double the potency of the mushrooms. The presence of the MAO-inhibitor potentiates the mushroom trip in a synergistic way and produces stare of consciousness which, in my opinion, more closely resembles the DMT state than your average mush- room trip (if there is such a thing as an "average" mushroom trip). I have found Psilocybe cubensis to be extremely reactive to the presence of an MAO-inhibitor, but this biochemical transformation should work magic with any species of Psilocybe mushroom - which, despite prohibition, are still widely available through home cultivation, cattle pastures, and woods and lawns around the globe

i conclude that GOD is an idiot [/quote:1wz2s6fm]

This could might as well be a placebo effect without doubts...give me the reaction of a MAO with psylocibin or psylocin and a reliable source for this and i'll be ready to believe you,
otherwise you are the idiot you have been searching for so far.

 

[Meduzz]

i'm with dantediv, james kent doesn't give any chemical mechanism.

GOD on the other hand, gave a chemical mechanism that is (in my eyes) perfectly possible.

But for now, i believe its still possible you are both right. (read my previous posts).

It's about time we can ask dr shulgin again http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/blg/index.html

 

[Dantediv86]

interesting indeed
how about we consider this as well
it seems even more intereting and could lead us to a compromise of the two parts of this forum
did you read it? http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin ... epare.html
EDIT:
this is just for phylosophical consideration i haven't checked if this source is reliable
however i find interesting what he says

 

[maxfreakout]

GOD on the other hand, gave a chemical mechanism that is (in my eyes) perfectly possible.

No he didn't

as i have already said quite a few times now, none of the sources that GOD quoted even mention the combination of rue and shrooms, the closest he gets to it is where he quoted Dennis Mckenna explaining why shrooms works WITHOUT an MAOI. Yet GOD's central claim was that MAOIs don't potentiate shrooms, he didnt offer any evidence to back up this claim, and there is a VAST amount of experiential evidence that claims otherwise

The claim that GOD is making is entirely equivalent to claiming that psilocybin doesnt really have any psychedelic effect at all, it is merely a placebo. This is obviously untrue yet there is no chemical mechanism to back up the claim that psilocybin is psychedelic, anymore than serotonin is psychedelic (since they both act on the same receptor)

 

[maxfreakout]

This could might as well be a placebo effect without doubts...give me the reaction of a MAO with psylocibin or psylocin and a reliable source for this and i'll be ready to believe you,
otherwise you are the idiot you have been searching for so far.

Right, and LSD is actually a placebo, we've all been imagining it all this time

 

[Dantediv86]

Yes it's all in our heads

 

[Meduzz]

none of the sources that GOD quoted even mention the combination of rue and shrooms, the closest he gets to it is where he quoted Dennis Mckenna explaining why shrooms works WITHOUT an MAOI. Yet GOD's central claim was that MAOIs don't potentiate shrooms, he didnt offer any evidence to back up this claim,

thats my point, if shrooms work without MAOI, which is true than it's up to YOU to prove how they potentiate.
I do believe they have synergetic effects.

As i don't believe you have read my previous post about my opinion here it is:

Want to hear my version?

It is true that the nitrogen atom will form hydrogen bondings.
thus imho preventing the psilocybin molecule from being broken down by MAOI, because the N atom and its surrounding atoms give DMT and psilocybin/psilocin the characteristics of a mono-amine, which is broken down by MONO-AMINE oxidase (MAO).

Although, i dont believe that this forming of hydrogen bondings occurs very precise and very "tidy" thus leaving a part of the molecules vulnerable to MAO.

If this theory is right (which i'm quite sure) this would mean that MAOI leads to more psilocin/-cybin uptake.

 

[phalaris]

It is true that the nitrogen atom will form hydrogen bondings.

Most water soluble compounds will form hydrogen 'bonds' with water, but the term 'bond' is somewhat misleading. Molecules are not lego. More like barbapappa's with variable strenght interactions. Hydrogen bonds are rather weak polar interactions, connecting and disconnecting many times per second. Amines are particularly good at it, you're right about that.

I think it is more likely that the bare ring of DMT is more easily recognized as a poisonous alkaloid, and attacked by some MonoAminoOxidase proteins.

Both serotonin and psilocybin have a 'top' substituted aromatic ring. So maybe the enzymes are not suitable to break down alkaloid when they look too much like serotonin.

Eating MAOI's like carbolines keeps those enzymes busy (or shut them down?), and DMT can slip by to do its job. Taking a huge dose DMT orally should performs the same function: keeping the defense mechanism busy and letting through some DMT.

Carbolines have a bare aromatic ring too, but do no have the 'loose' nitrogen containing carbon tail. My guess would be that carbolines are recognized as poisonous alkaloid, but interacts (fit) so strongly with the enzymes that all the enzymes remain occupied by relatively few harmaline molecules.

DMT (from mimosa) :

Psilocybin (from mushrooms):
(please note that it has two methyl groups too! it only differs from DMT
by a OH attached to the ring!)

Serotonin (an animal neurotransmitter):

Harmaline (a powerfull MAOI from Peganum harmala):

I've always thought it rather obvious that MAOi's would potentiate the uptake of psilocybin; the part of psilocybin that would be removed by the MAO system is taken up by the body instead.

 

[Dantediv86]

Ok
i begin to see it
but how can some people say that they get effects from MAOIs ? did they eat a banana?

 

[izmar]

I am not sure if I'm reading things correctly, but apparently people are claiming that MAOIs do not potentiate magic mushrooms. This is the first time I read about this.

Does anyone have a reference to any of the established sources about this?

 

[Goran.Hrsak]

How to for real experience if the MAOi enchanted shrooms.
First offer some food to your friend or friends before tripping. Pizza with cooked peganum seeds. And than eat shrooms. After that next week try this without seeds only shrooms. And of course guys and girls shouldn't know bout your experiment and after that ALL OF US WILL HAVE RESOULTS WHAT MAOi DO AND BIG MISTERY WILL GO OF FROM THIS SUBJECT.

WHAT YOU THINK?

 

[Dantediv86]

cool. a tud unethical, but cool i never thought of it, though it is an experiment often done to find wether substances are placebos or not.
but the problem is that we should make sure the mushrooms have the same potency the first time and the second time :? and how can we control the substances used by the group elements? (caffeine, THC, amount of water all have an influence on the trip)
I say that first of all you inform your group that you want to experiment on trip potency with them and you ask them to stay off medications for a week before the first session (those who need to take them won't partecipate), then on the day of the first session you ask them to abstain from ingesting anything but water.
then to solve the potency problem one should get pure psylocibin as to control the dose each time (this by the way has to be constant every ingle time, i.e. the same amount for each person on each session) also MAOIs should be in a measurable amount.

the first session pizza is served (i liked the Idea, good one Goran.Hrsak) with nothing in it (each person should have the same amount of pizza on all sessions) then after an hour or so serve the psylocibin,take notes about the experiences .

the second session pizza is served at the same time of day as previous session, this time with MAOIs in it and then after an hour serve psylocibin, take notes.

the third session should be done without serving the psylocibin, take notes.

the fourth session should be done with a psylocebo (you say it's psylocibin but it isnt) take notes

the fifth sesion should be done without MAOIs and the psylocebo (this time they are both placebos)

the last session, for science's sake, should be done without the pizza and the psylocebo....

did i miss something?

yes evaluation of results should be done by someone who hasn't a personal interest in proving one point or another

 

[Goran.Hrsak]

There is WHY I have make point why to take shrooms second week- Cause of psilocybin tolerance!!!
And who is taking shrooms in 90% will not be someone on prescription drug, or maybe some SSRI can be in game but this is irrelevant. Only MAOi with peganum(witch is also MAOi will be AND IT IS relevant!)

OK you have made this big :wink: But this is criminal act so my advice is to give them pizza with pegan and one hour after that shrooms and second time pizza without peganum and than shrooms or via verse. Experiment long this way is maybe, little how to say 'Mangle' -LOL

 

[maxfreakout]

I am not sure if I'm reading things correctly, but apparently people are claiming that MAOIs do not potentiate magic mushrooms. This is the first time I read about this.

Does anyone have a reference to any of the established sources about this?

'people' are not claiming this, one deluded person is claiming this, and not offering any references to sources about this, except a bunch of sources which aren't even relevant to it

GOD is completely wrong and it's annoying

 

[maxfreakout]

thats my point, if shrooms work without MAOI, which is true than it's up to YOU to prove how they potentiate.
I do believe they have synergetic effects.

No it isn't up to me, my own personal experience of the rue/shroom combination has already proven to me that there is a significant potentiation, that's all i need

Then GOD's claim that there is no potentiation, and that any apparent effect is just placebo, is no different from saying that LSD is really just a placebo

 

[Meduzz]

thats my point, if shrooms work without MAOI, which is true than it's up to YOU to prove how they potentiate.
I do believe they have synergetic effects.

No it isn't up to me, my own personal experience of the rue/shroom combination has already proven to me that there is a significant potentiation, that's all i need

that doesn't exclude placebo effect at all

 

[maxfreakout]

that doesn't exclude placebo effect at all

Yes and you can say exactly the same about LSD, it might just be a placebo, but what an insane and boring line of argument that would be

 

[Dantediv86]

Everything is placebo reality itself is. therefore LSD, Salvia, shrooms, Cannabis, DMT are all placeboes. the truth is that your brain expects effects from these substances and therefore he replies to it actually responding to the chemicals.

 

[maxfreakout]

Everything is placebo reality itself is. therefore LSD, Salvia, shrooms, Cannabis, DMT are all placeboes. the truth is that your brain expects effects from these substances and therefore he replies to it actually responding to the chemicals.

if that was true it would be impossible to spike someone