Danger of Islam!

[zezt]

well yeah, you seem to do a lot of laughing. Or is it sneering?

[quote:33jj0r1f][quote:33jj0r1f]How come you are so confident that you are very clear what you mean?

I already know what your position is, already.

That doesn't make sense to me. Either you understand me or you don't. If you don't please ask and I will answer to the best of my abilities. [/quote:33jj0r1f]


You SEE? That doesn't make sense to you also. You dont seem to be able to grasp irony. It was a simple question: IF you are so very confident I am not clear, what makes you SO confident you ARE? Isn't that a presumption on your part. Have you asked me if you are clear or not? No. You just assume you are. Which is quite arrogant actually seeing you accuse others of same.
I was making a point? Precisely because you, following Pariah, are pushing this. Was it me who started this? Obviously not, because I don't demand 'rules of deabte', I can understand what you mean. get me?...?

[quote:33jj0r1f]keep complaining non comprendi

It is because all the inconsistencies in your posts make me not understand your position correctly, thereby making it impossible to agree with you. I would have to make a leap of faith in order to get where you are. Now I am sure you don't want me to take things for granted, so don't mind me asking for clarification.
[/quote:33jj0r1f]

So isn't it YOUR responsibility to tell me clearly what are the inconsistencies you believe I am presenting?

You are continuously blaming everyone for neglecting YOUR reality while you fail to expose it in a way that people understand. Clearly the burden of proof is on you.

[/quote:33jj0r1f]

I have not blamed anyone. I am laying out my case, and have presented evidences. All I hear from you is contradictions, but no meat! practise what you preach. At the moment your lost in the abstract. Runnin on empty

 

[zezt]

This morning I listened to the Gnostic media podcast. The Interview with John Loftus
where he talks about the Muslim Brotherhood and the nazi's.


http://www.john-loftus.com/

http://www.gnosticmedia.com/


He had some story's to tell about the Nazi's the roots of Islamic extremism.
And the connections between the two.

Very interesting stuff check it out.

Thanks magickmumu, I will check that out. Sounds really interesting. Especially the role of the Muslim Brotherhood.

 

[Forkbender]

Have you asked ME if you are clear or not?

No. You didn't ask us either. When we said you wasn't making yourself clear you just reacted like a small child and put the mirror on it. Every argument you receive gets turned around and you keep referring to the same questionable material that is precisely not accepted by most readers.

So isn't it YOUR responsibility to tell me clearly what are the inconsistencies you believe I am presenting?

That is precisely what has been done throughout this thread. It would suit you to grow up and actually read what people are saying without seeing everything as an attack on your personal views.

All I hear from you is contradictions, but no meat!

So isn't it YOUR responsibility to tell me clearly what are the inconsistencies you believe I am presenting?

well yeah, you seem to do a lot of laughing. Or is it sneering?

I am just amazed by your capacity to turn every discussion about something into a discussion about you. Eversince you joined us here you haven't posted one single post that was actually constructive and positive. All you are spreading is fear, hate and blindness, under the false disguise of fighting it. Clearly your psychedelic trips haven't taught you a single thing and your are still stumbling your way through a dark life of hate and illusion. I hope you come to your senses and wish you all the best.

 

[magickmumu]

forkbender & Zezt

Chill out :idea:

 

[zezt]

Have you asked ME if you are clear or not?

No. You didn't ask us either. When we said you wasn't making yourself clear you just reacted like a small child and put the mirror on it. Every argument you receive gets turned around and you keep referring to the same questionable material that is precisely not accepted by most readers.

[quote:2trurpbd]So isn't it YOUR responsibility to tell me clearly what are the inconsistencies you believe I am presenting?

That is precisely what has been done throughout this thread. It would suit you to grow up and actually read what people are saying without seeing everything as an attack on your personal views.

All I hear from you is contradictions, but no meat!

So isn't it YOUR responsibility to tell me clearly what are the inconsistencies you believe I am presenting?

well yeah, you seem to do a lot of laughing. Or is it sneering?

I am just amazed by your capacity to turn every discussion about something into a discussion about you. Eversince you joined us here you haven't posted one single post that was actually constructive and positive. All you are spreading is fear, hate and blindness, under the false disguise of fighting it. Clearly your psychedelic trips haven't taught you a single thing and your are still stumbling your way through a dark life of hate and illusion. I hope you come to your senses and wish you all the best.[/quote:2trurpbd]

LOL, talk about Ad Hominem "An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject."

I cant have reasonable talk with you, whilse you go on like this. Maybe CM will fayre better. But I am still here. its just I am not gonna stoop to what you are doing

 

[Pariah]

"In the meantime, here's a song that popped into my head last night: "

Supertramp !

I always thought that song sounded a tiny bit like "yesterday" by the beatles.


***

I resent the suggestion that I'm just playing games - what makes the idea that I'm actually interested in understanding your position so difficult to believe?

***

"I probably read it when you were a toddler, or maybe not even born. Whats it got to do with anything."

I don't think that book is the type people forget they've read. whats it got to do with anything? Let me try to explain:

One of the focuses of the book is about defining quality, which stumped the author for a long time - defining is a very logical, formal process, but quality seems to defy definition - it seems as though it "just is". anyway in trying to to define quality, the author began thinking of the conflict between aesthetic and logical, then, where aesthetic and formal approaches fuse.

The author uses motorcycle maintenance to demonstrate how formal and aesthetic approaches can coexist - despite motorcycle maintenance being a very formal process, an aesthetic "zen" approach is required to bring quality to the work.

The significance of me mentioning it was that I can see I'm not the most aesthetic minded person (I do try, honest), but have got logic down: the lack of my words "sounding right" makes what I say seem clunky and "square" unless your analysing them, so is poor quality, whereas you and charley "just do it" and use flourishes and passion which gets people fired up, sounding like its from on high, but doesn't have any formal "quality control" to make sure your not just spouting nonsense.

The problem lies in trying to make the two sides fuse - get some sort of balance between the two.


***

"talk about Ad Hominem"

Ad hominum is a personal attack to *prove* a point.


Fork, I think was just making an observation: I don't think he said "you are wrong because you're spreading fear", the observation was independent of the discussion about islam - we have, after all, gone into a tangent. He wasn't proving a point about islam, but about your behaviour.

 

[zezt]

Hey magicmumu, Just taken a look at your links--not sure about second one--Gnostic media. yeah I am very familiar with it,and friends with Jan, but dont understand your link to it in relation with the Loftus one?
Also in links from first one, the one about Islamic-Nazi connections has been removed!

And talking about Trips. Not sure if I mentioned this. Maybe I did above but I will, because it was a very important Trip: I took some shrooms with a my cousin and a friend on holiday, in a wonderful place near the beach and sea. As there was still light we took the shrooms in the dunes and explored everywhere. We also found a lost dog for some people while the Trip was coming up!

Then as it got dark we surveyed the stars. it being very dark there, no light pollution, the star systems were really clear. Also there were little places in the dunes like fairy woods. My cousin even though Tripping was still reluctant to be 'weird'. Ie., a typical western way I suppose. Still clinging onto 'reality'?

Anyway, as it got a bit chilly we headed back to the house and turned on TV------There was a programme all about Israel and the conflict with Palestinians. It was done in a fly-on-the-wall kind of style. So you were looking out of eyes of camera at the people etc, and being bemushroomed it was like BEING there, going round Jeruslaem.

We saw a lot of praying. We followed this young Jewish girl walking by these barrack-like places, then she goes down into an enclave and gets out her little religious book and prays and prays.

We see Orthodox Jews/Frummers praying in front of a fridge door, nodding at it and praying similar to how they pray at their Wailing Wall!

It was really odd. A lot of the time I was laughing a lot, yet also deeply serious---seeing deep.
The main insight , and theme throughout was the utter direct knowing/feeling/seeing that, as LONG as people hold on to divisive belief systems that this will just cause more and more conflict and wars. It is the Folly of Man. And that really if only people knew that is nature which is our connection. Which is actual, which nurtures us from the beginning, from before the beginning/our birth, and after. Rather than 'my God' vs 'you God', or my atheism vs your 'God' etc

We saw Orthodox Jews celebrating in central Jeruslaem. The men were all holding hands and dancing in a circle, and the women and kids watching outside from a distance, and i thought WHY aren't they ALL dancing holding hands in a circle?!

I was wondering how they would all be if they took shrooms togther. Not just the males and women, but with the Palestinians. Would they feel like me? Seeing through all the crap?

We saw scenes of war and violence, and it was all so INEVITABLE! INEVITABLE as long as 'they' 'we' continue with divisive beliefs.

Now, about nature. Recently I was reading about what neo nazis believe about nature. In this article it said they believe more in 'nature' more than 'God', and try to live by it. But what they MEAN is that they interpret nature to be ruthless in its 'survival of the fittest', and thus apply these 'principles' by ruthlessly getting rid of people they consider...NOT 'fit'. This is of course same myth of Nazism, and also the pre-nazi Eugenics Movement of America which influenced Nazis

So hey look. I am NOT just looking at Islam. But at divisive beliefs. This thread is called Danger of Islam. Ie., it also is a divisive belief

 

[Forkbender]

Okay, I think I understand what you are saying. Thanks for that post, it really explains your point of view much better.

I still got one question that is probably at the basis of all my flaming in this thread:

Is being against divisiveness not divisive? Doesn't it create a barrier between you and others who belief in the systems you attack?

 

[misfit]

So what is your solution, if I may ask? Kill them all? Preach our values to them? Force them to accept our views, and leave theirs?

We all know how fanatics, some of them, can be about their religion. We all know how that, some, can make horrible practices. Ok! But lets get to the point... By the way, you can find fanatics everywhere.
Do you know people (women/mans/children) are being killed and tortured in central america by DEA agents (in name of the war on drugs) for training?

But, in topic. And let's cut to the chase.

What's your solution?

 

[magickmumu]

No because you see the other as a human being

 

[magickmumu]

So what is your solution, if I may ask? Kill them all? Preach our values to them? Force them to accept our views, and leave theirs?

We all know how fanatics, some of them, can be about their religion. We all know how that, some, can make horrible practices. Ok! But lets get to the point... By the way, you can find fanatics everywhere.
Do you know people (women/mans/children) are being killed and tortured in central america by DEA agents (in name of the war on drugs) for training?

But, in topic. And let's cut to the chase.

What's your solution?

Stop being addicted to oil.
The fundamentalist movement is mainly powered by the Saudi´s Who own all the money and oil.
So stop being addicted to oil and weakening the power of the Saudi´s could be a good first step.

 

[zezt]

Okay, I think I understand what you are saying. Thanks for that post, it really explains your point of view much better.

I still got one question that is probably at the basis of all my flaming in this thread:

Is being against divisiveness not divisive? Doesn't it create a barrier between you and others who belief in the systems you attack?

I just feel in speaking out as best I can. Of course you have to be careful. But you speak out however much you can.
I linked this thread to a blog by an ex-Muslim who is against Islam and Shariah, and chooses to keep anonymous. I have no problem with that. maybe Muslims etc will be able to read what he has to say, and be more informed than within the confines of their own belief, and its enforcers.

As I have tried to show, I am not only against Islam, but other divisive beliefs like for example the myth of mental illness pushed by our 'modern scientific culture'. For me to keep quiet about it would be a betrayal of all the children sucked into it by the ruthless profiteers, and so on as well as adult victims, and the whole ethos of 'happiness' in a pill. And how this affects MY sense of freedom.

IF people dont speak out when they see divisiveness for me that is conformity. Saying nothing to keep a false peace. And things end up just being ...divided more and more.

Another good example is housing estates took over by gangs. This is a problem in most places. I have heard of people being too afraid to go out, of telling the police about trouble from gangs--serious shit. And what happens, do the gangs go away? No they feed off the fear and strut around more.

YET in some cases there have been just a woman on here own who has gotten a community to stand up to--usually a minorty of troublesome youths and their families--and it has changed things for the better.

Well we are the 'larger' community of the world, and we all need to stand up against what we see is wrong. Thats what I feel and do anyhow.

It might SEEM to create a barrier when you challenge anothers belief. But it is really natural when you think about it. How weird would it be for them, or me--to suddenly agree? There will be massive barriers!!!...But there may also be ruptions/bifurcations, stuff going on just for the mere fact you ARE challenging cherished beliefs

Of course, MAIN Medicine for shaking us up are the psychedelics. And as much as I love that Trip report above from the ex-Muslim, I dont think everyone needs such mega doses. Everyone is different. And also we have to understand the support surrounding psychedelic experience.

Love CM's idea of some kind of resource that attracts Muslim youth to exploring other more expansive insights about reality, and psychedelics etc. it could be done anonymously too.

 

[Brugmansia]

Perhaps we are asking the wrong questions.

 

[zezt]

So what is your solution, if I may ask? Kill them all? Preach our values to them? Force them to accept our views, and leave theirs?

We all know how fanatics, some of them, can be about their religion. We all know how that, some, can make horrible practices. Ok! But lets get to the point... By the way, you can find fanatics everywhere.
Do you know people (women/mans/children) are being killed and tortured in central america by DEA agents (in name of the war on drugs) for training?

But, in topic. And let's cut to the chase.

What's your solution?

No definately not kill them all. There must be no Shariah Law introduced. if that is force so yeah. I am against abuse of women, gays etc.

yes fanatics are not only in Islam. And I am against that too. But it seems that there is much fear in talking out against Islamic oppression for fear of being harmed or killed. I have shown some examples just in Holland. That isn't right.

There are also 'hidden' forces encouraging 'multi-culturalism' and the dividing up of communities for their own benefit which I have mentioned above. A divide and rule. And with the acceptance of Shariah Law these communites become more and more self-sufficient and not assimilating, and closed off and also bringing the oppression to the Wst for the Muslims, many of whom do not want it. Especially women and gay people!

The solution? Is to encourage freedom. Is to challenge the Qu'ran like we do the Bible and our own secular culture IF it imposes oppression over people and human rights are lost.

if noone cares about this then that is the climate that creates.

As I am experiencing it the 'Left' seem to have a blindspot where Islam is concerned whereas have no problem with critiques against Zionism, Christian fundamentalism, and the New World Order/globalism.

 

[Forkbender]

The solution? Is to encourage freedom. Is to challenge the Qu'ran like we do the Bible and our own secular culture IF it imposes oppression over people and human rights are lost.

I think it is better to challenge the people who commit violent acts than the worldview of an entire group of which a large part lives in peace with their neighbours. Because by attacking the Qu'ran, we are actually not encouraging the freedom to think what you want.

 

[misfit]

Zest:

“The solution? Is to encourage freedom. Is to challenge the Qu'ran like we do the Bible and our own secular culture IF it imposes oppression over people and human rights are lost.

 

[zezt]

The solution? Is to encourage freedom. Is to challenge the Qu'ran like we do the Bible and our own secular culture IF it imposes oppression over people and human rights are lost.

I think it is better to challenge the people who commit violent acts than the worldview of an entire group of which a large part lives in peace with their neighbours. Because by attacking the Qu'ran, we are actually not encouraging the freedom to think what you want.

Yes I think it is right to challenge people who commit violent acts. But in islam even THAt is very dangerous:

"I also talked with fellow Arab writers and journalists to seek further answers, and it became obvious that many were outraged over how the beheading stories had been handled and why so many Arab journalists are afraid to express their anger publicly or put it in writing. Considering the history of terrorist movements in the Arab world and the way in which they have targeted writers -- the killing of Egyptian writer Farag Fouda in broad daylight in Cairo in 1992 comes to mind, as does the stabbing of 90-year-old Nobel laureate Naguib Mahfouz two years later -- their fear is justified. Islamic radicals have killed writers in Algeria, Egypt and elsewhere whose work challenged the logic of martyrdom and "random jihad," or killing foreigners in the name of Islam. But the lack of condemnation of the beheadings, despite their barbarism, is a direct result of a broad and dangerous trend in Arab media and in Arab culture broadly. The Arab world today swims in a sea of linguistic violence that justifies terrorism and makes it acceptable, especially to the young." (Where's the Arab Media's Sense of Outrage? ) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... 4Jul3.html

(I want to explain why and how I came to find that article later)

So after that your main point is that although it is good to challenge the ones who carry out these violent acts, that the actual Qu'ran is not involved? And doing so will create divisiness because it is such a large part of peoples lives?

Well, I know, but I dont separate the violent acts from that book, nor its Shariah Law which is also violent and needs challenging.
For example, that many 'moderate muslims' will not favour the extremist acts like the horrendously brutal beheadings that have been shown. YET themselves are not aware of the historical context from which these extreme acts find their inspiration, the historical life of Mohammid. Who also was very into beheading 'infidels'. So do you see that becoming aware of this, and making aware of this essential? That it of course will be challenging, as our experience was where the Medieval oppression of biblical violent dogma became questioned.
We CAN do the latter right? We don't feel fear doing so...? yet we accept some people take it literally. However fear no attacks from them.

 

[zezt]

Zest:

“The solution? Is to encourage freedom. Is to challenge the Qu'ran like we do the Bible and our own secular culture IF it imposes oppression over people and human rights are lost.

 

[Forkbender]

So after that your main point is that although it is good to challenge the ones who carry out these violent acts, that the actual Qu'ran is not involved? And doing so will create divisiness because it is such a large part of peoples lives?

Nononono. That's not what I mean. I mean that eventhough the Qu'ran is involved, we don't need to attack it. What about the RAF for example? Do we need to attack Das Kapital by Karl Marx just because some people take revolution into their own hands? We should rather challenge people that think that the Qu'ran justifies violence and I think we can get a lot of support for that in the muslim world.

 

[GOD]