Vegetarianism

[Affirmatory]

Soy is very high in phytoestrogens.

 

[Nina_is_alive]

but it isnt real estrogen. so your body produces less, as this substance acts as a sort of pseudo-substitute.....

at least I'm pretty sure that is the case.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

What I meant was that you can educate yourself and buy mostly pure products. You cannot really go wrong buying fruits, vegetables, rice, nuts, seeds, etc.

Yes, I already thought this is what you had in mind, and I do agree with that. But since sunshroom asked a question about becoming a vegetarian, I thought it would be advisable to first go to a healthfood store for a couple of months, to get to know a wider range of vegetarian ingredients (including vegetables, seaweeds, grains, legumes and other raw ingredients you won't find in a regular supermarket).

In the long term it might be more practical or economical to buy some of those ingredients in a regular supermarket again. Because I agree, products in healthfood stores are quite expensive, and although organic is definitely the way to go for the planet, most of us simply cannot afford to do all our shopping there. I certainly can't. For the record: I don't shop in a healthfood store anymore, and I'm also no longer a strict vegetarian.

If you get into produced goods with more than 4 ingredients alarmbells should be ringing. This would of course mean that you would prepare all your meals yourself.

Agreed. Personally I don't have time to cook for myself anymore, except perhaps once or twice a week.

 

[endlessness]

q: is it possible to find milk commercially available where cows do not suffer in any way, where their calves were not stolen from them and so on?

btw, why are vegans against eating eggs if they are from freerunning organic chickens? Its not like they suffer or anything, they lay the unfertilized eggs and leave them there to rot...

 

[mysticwarrior]

q: is it possible to find milk commercially available where cows do not suffer in any way, where their calves were not stolen from them and so on?

Yes, soymilk or ricemilk and i guess there are some others also

btw, why are vegans against eating eggs if they are from freerunning organic chickens? Its not like they suffer or anything, they lay the unfertilized eggs and leave them there to rot...

This is something many people did ask me, but i think you first need to look at the reason why someone becomes vegan. This because you can't live strictly vegan(In Holland it wouldn't even be possible to walk over certain streets ), but all you can do is reduce the suffering by any means are necessary. Which in my perspective where veganism is all about. So if there is no suffering, i don't mind to eat a egg. But since i am used to live without it, i chose not to eat them.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

btw, why are vegans against eating eggs if they are from freerunning organic chickens? Its not like they suffer or anything, they lay the unfertilized eggs and leave them there to rot...

What about the roosters?

 

[mysticwarrior]

Factory farming and why one should become vegetarian!

And there are thousands of video footages from all over the world that are highlighting these sorts of animal torturing. For me it is comparable with a holocaust, and it's said how all the humans put up there shoulders and think, what can i do about it? Well, it obviously isn't it?

 

[Bastiaan]

However I'm pretty sure you make less testosterone/estrogen with soy protein

I have the same lame excuse
I am an ATHLETE (holy music playing the background)
Back off! It's different for me.. :lol: :?

 

[mysticwarrior]

Bastiaan, but i know you consciousness says something different! Deeply inside you know what i mean

 

[Bastiaan]

Yeah yeah.. :x

 

[endlessness]

Yes, soymilk or ricemilk and i guess there are some others also

Can yoghurt be made of soymilk and rice milk? What about kefhir? what about b12 content in kefhir/yoghurt made from soya/rice milk? Because yoghurt is one of the few things I eat as vegetarian that helps me with b12.

Isnt it possible to get the real milk that is made in ways that cows do not suffer?

This is something many people did ask me, but i think you first need to look at the reason why someone becomes vegan. This because you can't live strictly vegan(In Holland it wouldn't even be possible to walk over certain streets ), but all you can do is reduce the suffering by any means are necessary. Which in my perspective where veganism is all about. So if there is no suffering, i don't mind to eat a egg. But since i am used to live without it, i chose not to eat them.

yes I agree, I do this as a mostly vegetarian also, except I dont close my notion to higher animals but rather to all life... So for example what is the use of being vegetarians/vegans if they drive huge cars or waste plastic or get the newest brand of cellphone every half year or take 1hour long showers or eat excessively fertilized genetically modified vegetables/fruits, and so on?

I think its impossible to not leave one single footprint on earth but I think we have to try to diminish the impact as much as possible in all levels of our behavior, as well as trying to compensate (planting trees, etc)

What about the roosters?

What about them? They can be living happily around also

Its easy to differentiate between fertilized and unfertilized eggs by the simple fact that chickens keep sitting on the fertilized ones and dont go out while the unfertilized eggs they leave behind and go eat from the ground.

 

[HeartCore]

Isnt it possible to get the real milk that is made in ways that cows do not suffer?

Artificially keeping a cow in a semi-pregnant state so we can keep stealing her milk which was intended for her own kids, if she would ever be allowed to have any.




If you can come up with a successful business model where you keep cows in a respectful way and make money on their milk, I see great richness ahead of you

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

What about them? They can be living happily around also

They can, but in practice they end up like this:

http://www.brokenb.com/images/Dead_Chicks.jpg

http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/chicken-baby-06.jpg

 

[endlessness]

Isnt it possible to get the real milk that is made in ways that cows do not suffer?

Artificially keeping a cow in a semi-pregnant state so we can keep stealing her milk which was intended for her own kids, if she would ever be allowed to have any.




If you can come up with a successful business model where you keep cows in a respectful way and make money on their milk, I see great richness ahead of you

what do you mean with semi pregnant state? As far as I understood its all about taking the calves (her kids) away, and just keep milking the cow and she will keep producing the milk... There are cows that even milk themselves in machines (sounds crazy heh?) because they have pain if they dont (but unlike popular rumours they wouldnt explode or something, gradually reducing milking would stop production)...

Organic milk would of course be better if we are talking about excesses/animal suffering in the sense that the cows dont get fed hormons and all that shit and have access to grassing, but the whole deal of separating the mothers from the calves is still there.... Thats why I was asking if there was some sort of organic farming + half time milking kind of thing where mothers wouldnt be completely separated from calves but still be milked..

I still have the issue with b12, though.. I eat organic/freerunning chicken eggs sometimes but that cant be my only source of b12, its not healthy to eat so many eggs.. I have heard diverging reports about our body's ability to absorb supplement b12 and I dont want to risk my health, so I try to make my own yoghurt/kefhir with organic milk... Cheese is also complicated to not eat at all, so there's also this to work out...

My conscience is quite clear because I know I do make a lot of effort in general in trying to diminish suffering and impact in nature, dont eat meat for years, but for sure there is always more to do. Im no extremist but am interested in finding intelligent solutions for these things

 

[endlessness]

What about them? They can be living happily around also

They can, but in practice they end up like this:

no need for scare tactics please, I find those images quite disturbing and would preffer if you would make them as links and not straight attachments...I dont want to see that and im sure others here dont, so make it as a choice please..

I know the eggs I eat dont come from places with these practices

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

I know the eggs I eat dont come from places with these practices

What do they do with the roosters then?

no need for scare tactics please, I find those images quite disturbing and would preffer if you would make them as links and not straight attachments...

That wasn't meant as a scare tactic, and I don't find the images that disturbing myself. It was simply in answer to your naive statement that roosters could walk about freely, while in reality most of them are killed, whether in regular or organic farms.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Organic milk would of course be better if we are talking about excesses/animal suffering in the sense that the cows dont get fed hormons and all that shit and have access to grassing, but the whole deal of separating the mothers from the calves is still there.... Thats why I was asking if there was some sort of organic farming + half time milking kind of thing where mothers wouldnt be completely separated from calves but still be milked..

From http://www.iscowp.org/ (International Society for Cow Protection):

V MILKING

Recommended

· 1) Training Cows

a) Cows should be trained by voice commands for the purpose of safety during public events, every day health checks, etc.

b) All cows should be given names.

· 2) Milking

a) Milking should be done by hand by trained experienced milkers who regularly milk the same cow(s).

b) Cows should be brushed daily, and udder washed before milkings

· 3) A Calf and Mother

a) A calf and its mother should have as much association as possible, especially in the calf's first week, to acquire the essential colostrum.

b) There must be careful consideration to the eating habits of the calf so that overeating does not occur leading to scours (diarrhea) which can lead to death. Overeating can be prevented by limiting access to the udder of the mother.

c) Weaning must be gradual, totally achieved no sooner than 3 months with the option of 6 months or longer.

d) During the weaning process a sweetened grain with the proper balanced ration for a young calf, first cutting, non stemmy hay, and clean water should be available for access by calf.

e) Caution should be taken against putting calves on pasture too early which can cause bloat (which can be fatal).

f) The primary cowherd should be supervising and instructing the treatment of the calf and mother.

Permitted

· 1) Training Cows

Cows can be trained to lead by halter or gentle herding techniques. This is for safety and health checks, not working as oxen. However light work is allowed for non lactating cows and must be supervised by the primary cowherd.

· 2) Milking

Milking should be done by hand.

· 3) A Calf and Mother

a) Calves may be bottle fed colostrum for the first few days and later on milk.

b) A plan must be presented to correct bottle feeding allowing for new calves in the herd to be with their mothers.

c) Gradual weaning can be prior to 6 months If the calf's coat changes color or it looses interest in milk (ruling out illness).

Not Allowed

· 1) Ill Treatment

Failure to develop a personal relationship with a cow leading to excessive use of whips, prods, beating, rough treatment, and violence to the animal.

· 2) Milking

a) Milking by hand in which the following occur: pinch, pull or any other action that may result in the animal becoming disturbed.

b) Milking by machine. This is not acceptable and can only be done in a crisis situation, e.g., lack of sufficient cowherds. A plan to correct the crisis situation must be presented.

c) Failure to provide all calves access to mother's milk either directly from the cow or by milk bottle.

d) Feeding calves milk replacement or by the bucket method.

· 3) Working cows as oxen except in dire emergency.

 

[endlessness]

What do they do with the roosters then?

they are living next to the chickens happily eating from the ground as well

not everybody has this luck but I do

That wasn't meant as a scare tactic, and I don't find the images that disturbing myself. It was simply in answer to your naive statement that roosters could walk about freely, while in reality most of them are killed, whether in regular or organic farms.

It wasnt naive statement, I KNOW the chickens and roosters are there because they are coming from my backyard... you, on the other hand, are already making conclusions about me without knowing me, which I do not appreciate.. Second of all, I didnt ask if YOU found the images disturbing, I told you I did and asked you a favour... if anybody wants to look at those images, you can make as a link and it will be the person's free will to do it.. Like this, whoever scrolls down the page wont have a choice but to see it, and in a thread about vegetarianism where people generally care about animals well being, I think if you had the minimum of good sense you would take out those pictures and make them as links at least

but whatever, do whatever your conscience tells is right

 

[mysticwarrior]

Like this, whoever scrolls down the page wont have a choice but to see it, and in a thread about vegetarianism where people generally care about animals well being, I think if you had the minimum of good sense you would take out those pictures and make them as links at least

In my opinion many people don't know about this cruelty. Why? Because people are afraid to look and on the other side the industry try's to hide the truth or keeping meat eating at least acceptable. Many people do eat meat because they don't know any better, but if you give them a knife to kill a cow, they won't go. Why? Because they realise it's not needed and it would torture and said. So yeah, such pictures as caduceus posts are sick indeed, and it's shocking, but in my opinion it is something to be shocked about. Can't we not just stop pretending about what we humans are doing? As long as many of us humans are not aware of it or afraid of becoming a vegetarian. The earth and the animals will suffer.

I am sure that there are more psychonauts who directly went vegetarian if they realised what has happened to that peace of meat they are eating. But if they did saw the truth, then i am sure they would pay close attention to it.

 

[Ahuaeynjxs]

Do you all think fish is meat ? Considering a fish nervous system is not complex enough to "suffer" since it only likes to eat and reproduce.

I was a full vegetarian for 5 years... but after my mercury intoxication, I had no choice to turn back to fish again.

It's a nice insight, considering there is sometimes mercury in fish and they put it in the mouths of kids (dental amalgam) and in vaccines.

Way to make the population secretly dependant on meat ? But then again when I was a vegetarian I felt spiritually super clean... so much that its unbalanced.

By existing in current society we have responsibility to be logical, not because we don't eat it and live in our alternate reality we are not involved anymore, we are all one...


In such a way I find full vegans completely MORE harmful than stupid meat eaters (its stupid to eat death hormones and stuff in there...)

It means I'm also slightly stupid, but I can handle that