Vegetarian?

[itsscience]

CO2 emmissions are only one element of the global warming/pollution problems.

All breathing animals produce CO2 and plants convert CO2 to O2 during daylight hours. CO2 is not the primary problem with global warming and pollution. Gases such as CO (carbon monixide) and phosphourous gases produced by heavy industry and cars etc are much more the root cause of global warming and pollution.

I'm not denying the accuracy of the statistic I'm just saying that turning vegetarian will not solve the world's problems. Similarly focussing an a gas such as CO2 when there are much nastier gases causing the problems will not solve the problems.

I find that vegetarians seemed to have an oversimplified grasp on the issue and seem to promote vegetarianism to a level of moral right that it does not deserve.

 

[IJesusChrist]

I am not saying vegetarianism will solve the world's problems. It's like shutting off the light when you're not in the room. It's something we should all do to a greater degree. I don't care if someone has a chicken wing every once in a while, it's natural to want some protein like that - plus meat tastes awesome.

But to completely rely on meat is unhealthy. My roomates and friends all eat an entire box of hamburger helper to themselves - that is nearly 140# your daily sodium, over 100% of your daily fat, a shit load of red meat, a shit load of radical chemistry too.

It will become apparent that our food and consumption ways are the number one cause of disease - specifically the killing diseases: heart, lung, kidney, and cancer. Eating a purely vegetarian diet lowers the risk of all of these dramatically.

Live stock is the number one contributor of certain phosphor compounds and easily the number one contributor to methane - the most potent (relevant) global warming gas. It is not an illusion that live stock raising is only somehow reaching that 51% mark in some obscur manner - it is full blown the leading cause of CO2 emissions, and methane - the two biggest contendors for global warming. NOx compounds, which I think you are talking about in your hypothesis that industry and automobiles contribute the "most" global warming, are prevelant but are not as important as CO2 or methane in GLOBAL WARMING. They are still pollutants, but they are not contendors for the raising of the global temperature.

I personally believe that everything is connected, and when you change the balance of happiness and pain, such as when you stack chickens and squeeze cows into cages, there are going to be underlying effects in the overall health of the population of earth (everything). I'll go out on a limb here and start talking abotu Gaia, which I really truly believe is a quantifiable thing - maybe outside of science at the moment, but eventually it will be realized.

The thing is, I get a guilt when I realize that an animal suffers for my pleasure. That guilt deters my health, and deters my ability to flaunt my health - affecting everyone in some way or another. Perhaps the social-emotional equilibrium rates are in thousands of years, or perhaps its within a hundred and we're seeing the effects now - perhaps you hold guilt from long ago that you have covered up with the veil of societies "Ok to do" sticker. I have plenty of them. (Graffiti ain't one of 'em bitch)

If you honestly have no guilt, no pessimistic view on the treatment of animals - then I can not relate to you, and no matter what I say will not have a positive outcome. Simply bounce off.

 

[itsscience]

If you honestly have no guilt, no pessimistic view on the treatment of animals - then I can not relate to you, and no matter what I say will not have a positive outcome. Simply bounce off.

Hey hey, now you're getting it, I don't feel guilt about it at all. From a number of debates we have had I can confidently state that we will never be able to relate to each other until you get older and have experienced a bit more "life".

I don't know what this "hamburger helper" you speak of is, although I've heard reference to it in numerous movies but never seen it. I generally eat meat once a day, for dinner and it is usually the smallest portion of the meal (I always try and have meat and 4 or 5 types of vegetables) and that is what I consider to be a healthy diet and seems to work best for me.

No I don't feel any guilt about eating meat just as the lion doesn't feel guilt for eating zebras while they are still alive, just as the killer whale doesn't feel guilt for flinging a baby seal through the air between he and his mate.

You are right about methane etc but I just don't think that the world turning vegetarian will solve global warming and pollution. In fact you state that eating meat causes health problems, we should all eat meat then because the true cause of global warming and pollution is unrestrained population growth in circumstances where we have taken ourselves outside of the natural causes that limit population growth such as predation. There's too many of us and changing to vegetarian won't alter that, in fact if you're correct that vegetarianism will make you healthier, it will probably assist the population growth.

 

[Guest]

No I don't feel any guilt about eating meat just as the lion doesn't feel guilt for eating zebras while they are still alive, just as the killer whale doesn't feel guilt for flinging a baby seal through the air between he and his mate.
.

It's not the same.

Animals kills other animals that lived in their natural environnement and in a natural way.

IJC's talking about the guilt of eating animals that suffered hardcore during their whole life due to our current industrial exploitation of live stocks.

I don't have any guilt killing an animal to eat (did it once, it was a sheep that led a normal life in the countryside), but I do have guilt buying industrial meat from animals who were basically born for a life of suffering.

 

[itsscience]

IJC's talking about the guilt of eating animals that suffered hardcore during their whole life due to our current industrial exploitation of live stocks.

So am I, I just don't feel the guilt that you and he feel. If that makes me a heartless monster then so be it.

 

[IJesusChrist]

Stop being a child and admit that you feel empathy for animals, otherwise I'm going to call you a rusty old liar.

 

[itsscience]

Rusty and old you have called me before. Liar - meh, you don't know me.

I feel empathy towards many things including animals but it doesn't stop me living the lifestyle that I live and eating what I like to eat. In fact I find I tend to feel more empathy towards wild animals than to domesticated animals such as cows, sheep and chicken.

I guess I'm just an arrogant asshole who can put aside feelings of empathy when it comes to my own personal tastes and convenience. If you choose vegetarianism good on you, I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is the common trait of the vegetarian to elevate their choice to some type of moral superiority and to this notion that by eating only plant matter they are somehow saving the world.

Perhaps I'm just particularly sensitive to this issue at the moment because where I live we have someone calling themselves the "Supreme Master" paying for television advertisements stating that everyone must convert to vegetarianism in order to save the world.

 

[Guest]

For the records, I'm *not* a vegetarian.

Actually, I even still eat meat from the industry, but this doesn't put me at ease so I suppose I'll buy much less of it in the future (if none at all).

I don't think I'll ever be a complete vegetarian though, but hopefully I'll only eat meat from animals who had a decent life.

 

[itsscience]

If you stay away from fast foods (KFC, McDonalds etc) and processed meats you'll probably be eating animals that led an ok life (as long as when buying chicken you only buy free range chicken. I don't know how it is done in the US but here in Australia we don't raise sheep and cattle in cages. Our cattle and sheep farms are huge, I mean extraordinarily huge, probably bigger than anywhere else in the world. The cattle and sheep roam freely, ok they have a bit of a hard time in the trucks when they're transported to the city centres but that is a relatively tiny portion of their lives.

We are omnivores.

 

[IJesusChrist]

The body is built to efficiently break down plant material the best. We are made to easily digest nuts, berries and so on - meat is hard on us, and lowers the life expectancy. It's like putting miles on a car.

I'm not argueing population growth here - that is a whole 'nother ball game. Education, philosophical and more omnipotent education is key in that regard. Smarter populations adopt morals about sexual standards that tend to lower population growth. Whether those sexual standards are good or natural is up to debate.

I really don't have any arguement about population growth, because I see it as no matter what solution you create, there is always a large loss. I don't see a solution, to be quite honest. I think it may be that we are doomed to accept death and birth regulation in the future. Not in genocidal terms, but I envision the chinese's birth limit being implamented soon in places. Possibly by foreign countries (i.e. US on Africans).

I don't know. Vegetarianism is what I'm comfortable with, and to be honest it came from a revelation while I was fishing one day. I saw the fish, and even though I blind myself by sayiing "fish are ok to eat" I felt that fish. . . That fish... spoke to me, for risk of sounding like a lunatic. I looked at that fish, while he was attempting to breathe - and I saw something in his eye. I threw him back and it took me years to confront that feeling and convert (and many other senseless killings of my youth).

I personally find myself extremely empathetic. I have an abnormal amount - much more than you, I'll claim. I feel bad hanging up on telemarketers, because I can feel myself in their position. To see an animal in pain - it is just as much saving myself from the empath, as it is saving the animal itself.

 

[Supervixen]

The body is built to efficiently break down plant material the best. We are made to easily digest nuts, berries and so on - meat is hard on us, and lowers the life expectancy. It's like putting miles on a car.

I know you're not being aggressive and I am not either, but why'd you say that ? I sincerely think that the human body is made for having some meat. Then, I agree with the idea we don't have to act like barbarians to get that meat, and I only buy free range chicken. But even though I have strictly nothing against vegeterians (or gay, speaking of birth regulation), I wouldn't say that they eat "better" than other people, even if they do get their damn "five a day" more easily.

 

[itsscience]

I don't know. Vegetarianism is what I'm comfortable with, and to be honest it came from a revelation while I was fishing one day. I saw the fish, and even though I blind myself by sayiing "fish are ok to eat" I felt that fish. . . That fish... spoke to me, for risk of sounding like a lunatic. I looked at that fish, while he was attempting to breathe - and I saw something in his eye. I threw him back and it took me years to confront that feeling and convert (and many other senseless killings of my youth).

I hear you with the fish. I love fishing (and the ocean, should have been a fisherman) and I usually only catch and realease. I do feel sorry for them and always try to get them back in the water asap. The difference between you and I is selfishness. I have empathy towards the fish (and cow, sheep, pig, chicken etc) but I care more about my satisfaction than I do about them. It's a cold hearted way to put it but at the end of the day that's what it boils down to. I know it's a failing in the pursuit to be good but it is a very very common failing amongst mankind.

Telemarketers: haha I can empathise! I end up apologising profusely to them for not wanting whatever the hell it is they're selling.

I agree with supervixen and not just because of the vixiness.

 

[IJesusChrist]

The body is built to efficiently break down plant material the best. We are made to easily digest nuts, berries and so on - meat is hard on us, and lowers the life expectancy. It's like putting miles on a car.

I know you're not being aggressive and I am not either, but why'd you say that ? I sincerely think that the human body is made for having some meat. Then, I agree with the idea we don't have to act like barbarians to get that meat, and I only buy free range chicken. But even though I have strictly nothing against vegeterians (or gay, speaking of birth regulation), I wouldn't say that they eat "better" than other people, even if they do get their damn "five a day" more easily.

Its true - meats are very hard to break down, especially oily and acidic meats which you will find with spicy food. Body isn't meant for it.

 

[Supervixen]

Excuse me, but yes, if body sure isn't made for bad factory meat, it is made for natural meat. We have strong jaws, plus, we need fat (of course, there is fat in plants, but not as much), and proteins (soy doesn't grow naturally everywhere). I mean, nowadays we can eat whatever we want and stay alive, but cavemen needed some good old nutritious stuff to be able to cope with an hostile environnement they had not "mastered" yet. So I think we can say our body may (must, maybe, I don't know) evolve in that way, but right now, it has not.