Money

[GOD]

A sort of elitist escapist fashistoid "I´m OK . Fuck the rest" system ? What would you do with the poor , the starving and those with no skills ? Make slaves of them ? Let them die ? Gas them ?

 

[psm]

"I will not hand you the truth on a silver platte"

So you know "the" truth ? And you are in a position to give it / explain it ? But you wont . Why not ?

Because truth comes form your own conclusion. If I'd tell you, it would be worth nothing to me. You might repeat my words, but they would still be mine. While thinking for yourself might bring up some conclusion, ideas of truth, which will be entirely yours. they will be worth something, because you earned it.

"use your own brain. "

What do you mean ? That i should develope telepathy ? Or do you mean i should explain something that you said that you cant / havent / wont explain ?

I mean, that you can think for yourself, if you can...
And if not, you should first learn to learn. for example, do not dismiss books. study past and present, listen, read, observe. learn about causality and use it. be critical to any information, but foremost, to yourself.

"money is never beneficial"

What about when it buys food for starving people ?

When did that ever happen?

"the system does not give diddly shit about my ten bucks"

But a starving kid could use the money you threatened to burn to buy food with .

I don't think so. Drop a bag full of bills over somalia and see how well you feed the people. Money is thrown at problems to ease the bad conscious of western society, not to solve the problem.
It is a matter of distribution of knowledge, not money. it is a question about economics, not capitalism. In our world, spanish tomatoes which travel thousands of miles to the markets of west africa are still cheaper then locally grown tomatoes. this is what money is all about.
it ruins free trade. it diminishes labor and hard work. it makes a farce out of the life of any peasant or laborer.

" you might think it buys you cloth, food and other goods."

How do we get food , clothes and other goods then ? Why do i have to pay in a supermarket ? What are those coins and pieces of paper for ?

In that case, it is nothing else then foodstamps, that tell you what and where you can consume. and you have been conditioned to consume.
try a summer at a farm to appreciate work, life and food. sew your own cloth to be proud of what you are wearing, instead of buying prada beneton and gucci bullshit-

"there is a reason why revolutions took place in the last few hundred years"

Isnt it the same reason that there have been atempts at revolution throughout human history ? And why are the revolution atempts in the last 100 years any different to all the others before ?

they occured more often. revolutions happened over the last thousands of years, thats true, but the amount of revolutions are growing. and there is a very good reason for that.

"the system is inflated and it will pop."

Who do you think it will pop on ? Who do you think will benefit if and when it pops ? Why hasent it poped before ? Why did the russian , french and american people , for example , loose their own revolutions ?

It will pop on us all. And it did happen in small terms many times.

Perpetual motion is something that goes on for infinity . I thought you said that there is no infinity ?

It was a fucking metaphor!
a system that produces something out of nothing. MONEY! get it? No? bugger, ain't it?

"everybody could be able making his own clothes, roof above his head and farm his own food."

Maybe its theoreticaly possible but not in practice . Different people have different skills and we need a system of exchange so that the ones , for instance , that produce cloaths can buy metal implements from those that produce them . Or do you mean going back to the stone age when only the fitest survived ?

Actually dude, it is the economical system we, as a species used about 99% of our existence... but never mind that, right?
simple trade of good and wares, of knowledge and skills and of service does not at all depend on money. hell, we would not even have to work more then an hour a week to produce sufficient for all humans. what the fuck do you think technology is for? they landlords just neglected us the right to participate and share the fruits of it all...
we are egyptian slaves, we have been and we will be, until people realize it and bring this whole system to fall. it will happen by itself as soon, as nobody has to work anymore and they don't come up with bullshit jobs to keep us busy. as soon as bread and games are not sufficient anymore to keep the people occupied. when we still want to consume (and we have to) but we will not be able to afford it anymore. then it will collapse.

 

[psm]

A sort of elitist escapist fashistoid "I´m OK . Fuck the rest" system ? What would you do with the poor , the starving and those with no skills ? Make slaves of them ? Let them die ? Gas them ?

I could have bet, that some crap like that would come.
Actually no. Not everybody is a selfrighteous ass. you cannot project your own reality onto everybody else - well you can, but it will not work out.
The things you are implying are, even for your standard pretty low.

I start saving the world around me. I don't send money to some poor african kid to feel better. I do not support PTA or Greenpeace to ease my own consciousness. What I do, I do in my immediate surrounding. And don't you dare criticize that, because you know nothing of what I do and what I have done in my life. I share, I give and I offer. And I do not ask for anything in return, not even acknowledgment. I do what I do, because I think its right.
And if I wanna help an african kid to have a better life, I go down to africa and show them how to build a well. how to irrigate. how to use their space respect-, resourcefully and responsible.
And if I see a starving kid on the street, I share. I did so and I will do so, even if it is the last bill.
Burning it is just as valuable as giving it away. because it might teach some people the value of money, make them think and rethink their ideals. Some of course will never be able to learn. some are just immune to it, no matter how often they ask for things to be explained...

 

[GOD]

about causality and use it. be critical to any information, but foremost, to yourself."

Are you saying i dont / cant do any of that ?

"When did that ever happen? "

Are you saying oxfam and other charitys dont help starving people ? I was hungry and had no money and people helped me .

" Drop a bag full of bills over somalia and see how well you feed the people."

If you give a starving person money so he can aford food you help him .

"it ruins free trade. it diminishes labor and hard work. it makes a farce out of the life of any peasant or laborer. "

It does nothing . People do things with it .

"try a summer at a farm to appreciate work, life and food. sew your own cloth to be proud of what you are wearing, instead of buying prada beneton and gucci bullshit- "

I`ve worked for more than just a sommer on a farm . I regularly sew my own clothes . I dont own anything that could be considered fashion clothing .

"the amount of revolutions are growing. and there is a very good reason for that. "

And how does that look when you consider the amount of revolutions in comparison to the world population ?

"And it did happen in small terms many times. "

Yes , it did pop on us many times . Did it help us ? Did it change the system ? Are the poor not poor anymore ?

"a system that produces something out of nothing"

I`ve never seen or heard about a system that produces something / money out of nothing .

"simple trade of good and wares, of knowledge and skills and of service does not at all depend on money."

How are we going to exchange things ? For example you say that we would only have to work for one hour a week . Looking after animals takes more than an hour a week . What would the farmer eat untill the animal was big enough to sell . Which person needs to buy a whole animal ? What would he swap with the farmer to pay for the animal ? If a smith offered the farmer 200 knives for the animal what would the farmer do with the knives ...... in the one working hour of the week ?

Why are bread and games and divide and rule going to stop working ?

"when we still want to consume (and we have to) but we will not be able to afford it anymore. then it will collapse."

Have you never heard of marshal law ? Why do you think the army , police force and judges are payed more than common workers . Why do civil servants have garanteed incomes and privelidged lives in many lands ?

"you cannot project your own reality onto everybody else"

But wouldnt that be what you would be doing by doing what you said ? What would you do with the poor , the starving and those with no skills ? Make slaves of them ? Let them die ? Gas them ?

"The things you are implying are"

I`m not implying anything , i`m reminding you of the implications of what you are saying .

" I don't send money to some poor african kid to feel better"

Thats a bit crass isnt it ? Feeding a starving person and stoping him from dying and compairing that to making him feel better . "Let them eat cake" ?

"Burning it is just as valuable as giving it away."

Would all the starving people in the world agree with that ?

 

[psm]

Are you saying i dont / cant do any of that ?

nope, did you read that somewhere?

Are you saying oxfam and other charitys dont help starving people ? I was hungry and had no money and people helped me .

Never heard of oxfam. and this is not a matter of money, but the kindness of people. they would probably do it without money too

If you give a starving person money so he can aford food you help him .

Not in the desert of somalia

It does nothing . People do things with it .

nope. people don't have a clue what they do, so it is not their intention to do anything. it is the system that forces people to do things and not be aware of it.

I`ve worked for more than just a sommer on a farm . I regularly sew my own clothes . I dont own anything that could be considered fashion clothing .

Then you DO know that it is possible, but still try to argument against it. I guessed that you just do all that because you like to compare e-peens... never mind. enjoy yourself, I won't play with you tho.

And how does that look when you consider the amount of revolutions in comparison to the world population ?

Its more about accessibility of information, then the size of population. it's a matter of evolution. we are toddlers learning. and it does take a while until most of us catch up.

Yes , it did pop on us many times . Did it help us ? Did it change the system ? Are the poor not poor anymore ?

It did not pop globally, because economics was not global until recently.
Imagine the US 20ies all over the world, but in a time, where everybody can see the ultrariches decadence...

I`ve never seen or heard about a system that produces something / money out of nothing .

Then you should read some books. something on modern economy. look up how modern banks work. how a federal bank is against the american constitution. what free market is and how it is treated today.

How are we going to exchange things ? For example you say that we would only have to work for one hour a week . Looking after animals takes more than an hour a week . What would the farmer eat untill the animal was big enough to sell . Which person needs to buy a whole animal ? What would he swap with the farmer to pay for the animal ? If a smith offered the farmer 200 knives for the animal what would the farmer do with the knives ...... in the one working hour of the week ?

In a system where excess products exist and enough for everyone, you don't need to exchange. just share. trade is for neolithics.

Why are bread and games and divide and rule going to stop working ?

I will not answer any more of your WHY questions. start thinking on your own. That what the mass in your skull is for. put it to use.

Have you never heard of marshal law ? Why do you think the army , police force and judges are payed more than common workers . Why do civil servants have garanteed incomes and privelidged lives in many lands ?

policemen are not paid more, they are just better brainwashed. at my place they don't let you into the general police force if you exceed a certain amount at the IQ test. control is the key. but besides that, you are right. this is a way of control. but at some point people will not take it so lightly anymore...

But wouldnt that be what you would be doing by doing what you said ?

No, because I am talking about a small community, not about a state, or global system. And I will not even consider the rest of this bullshit sentence.

I`m not implying anything , i`m reminding you of the implications of what you are saying .

Simple answer: Idiot

Thats a bit crass isnt it ? Feeding a starving person and stoping him from dying and compairing that to making him feel better . "Let them eat cake" ?

The opposite. I help directly and personally. Sending money to any organisation that claims to help the poor and the starving is "Let them eat cake".
If you wanna do something, do it yourself. be responsible. that is what I do.

Would all the starving people in the world agree with that ?

If it changes the world...? no. because there would be no starving people anymore.

Go and harass people that - moneywise - really could make a change. go nag bill gates or rubert murdoc. I am poor myself and have been most of my life. and while I did see the "brighter" side, I chose my life as it is anyway. And I still share. So please don't rub yourself against me. I will not help you masturbate your ego.

 

[Psyolopher]

Wise answers PSM!

 

[Lion]

Wise answers PSM!

second that. this goes beyond my imagination of thoughts

 

[GOD]

My last post on the subject . theres no point in talking to you because you just make statements and cant explain them and then come with clever dick empty answers , insults and platitudes .

Lion you seem to me to just enjoy causing trouble , doubting people and being negative .

 

[Lion]

My last post on the subject . theres no point in talking to you because you just make statements and cant explain them and then come with clever dick empty answers , insults and platitudes .

Lion you seem to me to just enjoy causing trouble , doubting people and being negative .

assumption leads to nowhere.
you're wrong.

 

[psm]

My last post on the subject . theres no point in talking to you because you just make statements and cant explain them and then come with clever dick empty answers , insults and platitudes .

Ah at last...
Gods final answer.
I could same most of it to you too, you know?
There is no point in talking to you, since you do not want to understand anything. because you need simple answers to things, that cannot be answered simply. because you insult, imply, and make loose nonsense statements, sometimes you even drop a hard word (although the repertoire seems a little bit small) but you make no real contribution whatsoever.

while you nag, ignore and actually say nothing at all, at least my answers are clever. for those with at least a little bit of humor, even funny sometimes. but I still don't see your replies as useless.
You see, there is no point in talking to you, but luckily I do not talk to you...

Lion you seem to me to just enjoy causing trouble

In most of the topics since I am in this forum, I only see one troublemaker, only one that makes most posts negative. And it ain't Lion...

 

[GOD]

"assumption leads to nowhere. you're wrong."

Then why do you keep doing it ?

 

[psm]

@GOD

how this:

+ 1000, second that!

I'd like to add: everybody could be able making his own clothes, roof above his head and farm his own food.
Money is UNnecessarely in my opinion.

second that. this goes beyond my imagination of thoughts

can be considered troublemaking really is beyond me. Such a claim is ridicule at best.

Oh wait! Could it be, because he agrees with someone else then you? (coincidentally it is me, but maybe that is not even a coincidence...)

you are really cracking me up. i am tickled. You DO have a sense of humor after all!


edit: btw I acknowledge, that my words are acknowledged by others (besides the one imaginary entity). and I appreciate, that they are appreciated.

 

[Lion]

"assumption leads to nowhere. you're wrong."

Then why do you keep doing it ?

where and what do i assume?

 

[buffachino]

Money represents a value, yes.
A value in debt.

I can supply myself with food and clothing with money, so it is more than real.

Doesn’t that say everything?

One sustains perfunctory reality with debt to ones desire for that which is real.
Fucking ironic.

In this economic society, we simply chase after the debt we make for ourselves by trading in that very debt.
It’s a reciprocal cycle of indebtedness to further debt.

And here we return to whence we came.

Psm, well said.
But a word of advice, if you don’t want to contradict what you say, try not to argue the point of saying it.
The state of things is pretty self evident beyond superficialities.

Sure we could all give all our money to the poor, but without actually helping them, all we do is trade in the debt that more people will have to support, thus increasing poverty by attempting to combat it with the tool of its source; debt.

There's no substitute for an act of compassion.

 

[restin]

The problem is, you dream of a perfect world. You think that it is the nature of human beings of being compassionate and good, ust because you think you are.

The problem is, it is not so.

Give any human being the power over another one, and it will use it.

Human beings are sadistic and egoistic.

communists dreamed of a community where everyone helps the other. But gosh, what did they need to hold it? Hardcore propaganda,such as you have never seen it (not even here!). Elimination of people who thought differently so they wouldn't disturb the system. They had to lie to peasants because they wanted more. THey had to lie to doctors because they wanted more. Everyone wanted more. And everyone wa well educated. Education doesn't mean compassion.

The system of money will collapse, somewhen, if it is in our lifetime or not, it will. It is a system of dept but money is a large part of what the system is based on. This system accepts the greediness and ego of human beings. It opens the doors for the greedy ones because they hold the system. We have only 2 rules: moral principles and the law. The rest is up to us. Imagine our system without money. Would you go to a factory for nothing? I wouldn't. Would you go to your fields and work so the others would take away everything and leave you with a small part of your crops? I wouldn't. Would you help your patients while your kids are starving at home? I wouldn't.

I don't think that GOD is saying that money is good (correct me if not so), but he says (and so I do) that our system is based on a (perhaps wrong) value of money.

In this economic society, we simply chase after the debt we make for ourselves by trading in that very debt.

Yes. But if you don't chase, you die. Simple as that.

 

[GOD]

Thanks Restin , thats part of what i`m saying . I`m also saying that a system wont run without a way of exchanging things that represents a dividable value . An agent of exchange = money . Money is not bad , the badness asociateed with money comes from how some people use it . Stop the abuse of money and we will stop the problems asociated with it . Now because of the corupt system we live in money represents debt . In a fair system it represents value .

Running away and living in closed little groups , blameing money for our problems or having fantasys about forcing the world to go back to the stone age wont solve dreamers personal problems or make the world a better place .

 

[Lion]

In this economic society, we simply chase after the debt we make for ourselves by trading in that very debt.

Yes. But if you don't chase, you die. Simple as that.

i don't think i quite understand both your sentences and/or ideas behind it, but i give it an attempt anyway.
I believe we do NOT need money at all. All we need to do is share knowledge about how to farm food, how to build a roof above our head etc.

GOD, you said something about animals yesterday..
GOD wrote:
How are we going to exchange things ? For example you say that we would only have to work for one hour a week . Looking after animals takes more than an hour a week . What would the farmer eat untill the animal was big enough to sell . Which person needs to buy a whole animal ? What would he swap with the farmer to pay for the animal ? If a smith offered the farmer 200 knives for the animal what would the farmer do with the knives ...... in the one working hour of the week ?

the thing is (at least that's how i think about it) that we don't need these animals to live on.. So why keep them? Let them run free! After all that's what we all want, right? Freedom..
And if you still want to eat animals you can go hunt for them.
BTW; I'm not a vegetarian, because i like the taste of different species of meat too damn well. But I do think it's wrong breeding animals just to be slaughtered and eaten by humans.

 

[Meduzz]

Only the retards will keep chasing animals after some time.

 

[GOD]

Most of humanity thinks it needs milk , meat , eggs , leather , wool and other animal products . You cant force them not to keep animals . Animals are the only thing keeping large parts of the population alive . They are in some ways a democratising "product" as nearly anyone can own an animal but few people can own buisnesses or factorys to create wealth for them . Animals have babys buisnesses dont . If farm animals ran free many of them would die because they cant look after themselves anymore . They would also wreck many peoples vegetable crops . If we didnt breed animals and just went hunting those animals and the products that are made from them would dissapear in a short time . That would mean poverty , hunger and death for many people .

If there was no medium of exchange how would people trade and import products from different countrys . Who would build oil tankers and powerstations and why . If there was no money what would happen to industry ? And what would be the concequencys of there being no industry ? If there was no electricity we would have to burn the smalll amount of forest that we still have . It would dissapear very quickly and the smoke would do a massive amount to polute the atmosphere . At least many powerstations filter the smoke they produce .

 

[restin]

The domestication of animals and plants is a natural evolutionary process. THe more complicated society became, the mre the need of food. Hunting and gathering is cool- of you are a group of 20. In a group of 7 million you are just not able to survive with one mammoth and some berrys. Simple as that. You may propose a very small society with 20 people of course. But then you would have to kill more than half of the population. Or hunting grounds would overlap, wars would begin,alliances, society would get complicated again and voilà, we are at the present stage again.

I love nature, I'd love humans going back to nature, but it isn't possible any more. If you watch human history, you see that the whole process was very natural.

In our present stage of society, we attempted a large scale of complexity. So have our goods. For example, to make a lasagne you need: meat, flour,eggs,cheese etc. So. If you are a peasant and want to make a lasagne for yourself and your family, you have a stable for cows for the meat and milk., fields with wheat, chicken for the eggs.

So far so good.

If you want to make lasagne for 1000 people, the case gets more complicated,doesn't it? Now, Adam Smith comes into play: division of labour is the key word. You can't look after 100 cows, have gigantic fields etc., so what do you do? You make a peasant who looks after cows,one with chicken etc., and at the end of the day, you buy your stuff from different people, so efficiency is increased.

So far so good.

Now complexity is increased even more. The peasant with the cows now doesn't kill the cow and makes it to minced meat. He sells the cow to the butcher and he makes it to minced meat. So complexity is increased.

What is the conclusion?

What does the peasant get if he sells the cow to the butcher? He could eat it himself! So he demands an exchange medium so he can afterwards aquire my perfect, delicious lasagne

What I want to say is, that with increased complexity of society, you have increased demand of money.

It is true, that money has aquired a large value of corruption and error. What people do sometimes with money is not right. It is evil. But this surely isn't (only) the fault of the money.