Money

[GOD]

"just because people believe in its value, does not make it more substantial. "

The actual curency we use , coins and notes has little value . It represents a value . Everything on sale has a price , costs a certain amount of money . Thats the general concensus and it works .

 

[Subtle_Nod]

"just because people believe in its value, does not make it more substantial. "

The actual curency we use , coins and notes has little value . It represents a value . Everything on sale has a price , costs a certain amount of money . Thats the general concensus and it works .

I would not go so far as to say the current system is working, but it's not collapsed yet.

 

[GOD]

It doesnt work perfectly but it works enough that it hasnt colapsed , yet .

 

[restin]

I liked your speech, psm, very much. But I think that as long as all people agree on the value of money, it is real. Of course there are large problems if we use aluminium and paper to represent value. We saw that during the first world war in Germany, where everyone changed their money for "value papers" from the bank and after the war the papers were worth nothing. But there is also a problem. We haven't got enough gold to substitute it for the billions of billions of dollars (included other currencies of course) that travel the world. It is a matter of convenience. And you can't say money isn't worth anything. I can supply myself with food,cloth with money, so it is more than real.

It doesnt work perfectly but it works enough that it hasnt colapsed , yet .

I am not sure but I think that a system works as long as the hole between rich and poor hasn't passed a certain line. Maybe it is like Orwell described in 1984? However, we now often have the tendency that poor get poorer and rich richer. Will there be a revolution in our livetime?

 

[Subtle_Nod]

I liked your speech, psm, very much. But I think that as long as all people agree on the value of money, it is real.

We are very much screwed - just from reading this thread it is clear there is not agreement on it's value, outside this thread the disagreements get a lot worse.

 

[GOD]

I think we all agree that we need an exchange medium , that the coins and notes we use dot cost the value they represent and that the system we have is not perfect .

So what dont we agree on ?

 

[restin]

Certain disagreement makes a discussion fertile...If we had the same opinion, the discussion would be stupid (and we also ) and futile. I think it is fun to share opinions.

I think that there is no perfect system. Every system represents the present society and as soon as humanity changes, the system will fall.

All systems are evil. :twisted:

 

[druglessdouglas]

we all need better printers at home, and decent paper

 

[psm]

the value of money is decided by a handful of people. (the movie zeitgeist comes pretty close to what is going on in matters of money)

the system is inflated. sooner or later it will pop. moneymakers are the owners of an economical perpetuum mobile, but one, that will sooner or later collapse.
we don't own our money. we rent it. and we pay high interest for it. the value of it, once was gold, does not really exist, so how do they conclude its worth? they don't. they don't have to. inflation is the way for them. and as more money you have, the richer you can get.

lets say, you have a million dollars. you go and get a loan for a million more, with your already owned million as insurance for the bank.
the amount of interest you will get for the two million pays for the interest of the one million you just took a loan for. so after lets say 5 years, you own 2 million dollars and did nothing at all for it.

this of course is simplified. but that is how rich people make money. take a loan, invest that money, pay of the interest with the money you make from the investment and you have more money after a short time. rinse and repeat. since this system is used all over the world, where does the money come from?
how does ecology look like in comparison to a hundred years ago. how much land is owned by how many people? how much value does one hold? the rich get richer, the poor poorer. and while we are trimmed and brainwashed to spend our money on expensive bullshit we seldom really need, we have more and more debts.

in the city i live, ten years ago only 600 people had to declare private bankruptcy. last year it have been over 10k! ten years ago, only about 20k received social welfare (the last resort) today its more then 250.000!
And these numbers will keep growing.
20 years ago the average age of someone having debts over 10k (dollar/euro) was 24, today it's 18.
some more?
we have an official unemployment rate of 8%. tuth is, that there are more then 36% and rapidly growing.
In the US a two people household, working 3 jobs will still end up with a minus at the end of the month.
ain't all that make you wonder?

I decided for myself a long time ago, that I will not aggravate myself to much in the concerns of money (and I did have had some very well paid times). if I would get rich, I'd share. In small as well, as in big ways. I believe in an economical win-win situation for all participants.

but in a world, where megacorps have to bring in higher and higher revenues each year, where can that take us?
Just image that! A company makes a good income. It has revenue of (just as an example) 10% to last years revenue. Next year it has to excel this year, or the shareholder will make trouble. so the company makes more and more every year... where does all that come from? somewhere the money has to be made... and there are endless possibilities. from sweatjobs, lower quality, brainwashing marketing, and so on.

why not just make good money and leave it at that. what can a single man care for so much money? look at those crazy MFs in Dubai. How much crazier can you get?
What about bloody bill gates? did you know that he could, singly make all 3rd world countries into second world countries?

the difference between a low level worker and a high management post are in no real comparison. its just fucking nuts.

and all that tells me, that i should not care about money. it fuels war, to make more of it. drugs being illegal? money. they would not make any if they would be legal. money decides who gets elected and next to god, money is the highest ranked reason for killings.


Fuck money!

 

[GOD]

"an economical perpetuum mobile, but one, that will sooner or later collapse. "

?

If you lot dont like money give all yours to me...........

 

[psm]

"an economical perpetuum mobile, but one, that will sooner or later collapse. "

?

all explained in my post before. If you don't understand it, I can't help you.

If you lot dont like money give all yours to me...........

To feed your greed? No way. But I will burn a bill for you...

 

[druglessdouglas]

money is complex.
the closest ive come to no-money was 6 months living on £23.23 (some of you will get the cosmic joke) while homeless and quite, quite mad. i found myself only concerned with finding enough to eat. i did a lot of shoplifting food. all i had i carried in a rucksack on my back. most people would have changed their attitude to money and would spend their life trying to accrue more. not me, i still detest the current money culture, and through it money, so money avoids me or cant wait to leave. i will give my last penny away if someone needs it and i give a lot to charity which earns comments from my friends. at the end of the day i will die. you cant take your money with you.

you can however take the banks money with you and i intend to die heavily in debt

 

[GOD]

Ha ! Ha ! Ha !

Your the one that doesnt understand what your talking about . A perpetual motion aparatus cant "sooner or later collapse" .

"To feed your greed? No way. But I will burn a bill for you..."

I am not greedy . And if you burn a bill you prove that you are .

 

[psm]

A perpetual motion aparatus cant "sooner or later collapse" .

depends on what it is running...

And if you burn a bill you prove that you are .

Now that is an abnormally stupid statement. thanks dude, it made me laugh.

 

[GOD]

"depends on what it is running""

Please explain ? Why does it depend on what it is running ?

Now that is an abnormally stupid statement"

Why ? Explain please . Someone who burns money has wasted it , took it out of the system and stoped other people getting benefit from it .

 

[psm]

"depends on what it is running""

Please explain ? Why does it depend on what it is running ?

Now that is an abnormally stupid statement"

Why ? Explain please . Someone who burns money has wasted it , took it out of the system and stoped other people getting benefit from it .

dude, I am getting tired of trying to explain everything for you. I will not hand you the truth on a silver platter, use your own brain.

there is no benefit in money. whatever fucked up reality you life in, money is never beneficial. you might think it buys you cloth, food and other goods. but it is nothing else then a food stamp for slaves in a corrupt society, run by assholes, that are not on par with normal human being for over 15 thousand years. we are still building pyramids for a pharaoh, whatever it is you think you see.
if you don't get that, i am truly sorry for you. but ignorance IS a bliss and the paradise on earth belongs to the simple minds, for they do not see in what sort of deep shit we are all in. the system does not give diddly shit about my ten bucks, or a million bucks. they even take into account, that a certain amount will just disappear.

[random note: the 1 and 2 €ent cost much more to produce, then it is worth.]

and the system runs on idiocy of the masses. but at a certain point the unhappiness and suffering of the masses will get critical and surpass its idiocy. there is a reason why revolutions took place in the last few hundred years. and while propaganda calmed it down and made general purpose revolutions of big groups unlikely to impossible, at one point people will not tolerate being treated like they are.

the system is inflated and it will pop.

 

[silv]

So I went on this nifty search engine site, and look what I found! A definition of the word perpetual:

1. continuing or enduring forever; everlasting.
2. lasting an indefinitely long time: perpetual snow.
3. continuing or continued without intermission or interruption; ceaseless: a perpetual stream of visitors all day.
4. blooming almost continuously throughout the season or the year.

Don't look like something that's perpetual will stop anytime soon. At least, according to the definition of the word perpetual...

 

[Lion]

"depends on what it is running""

Please explain ? Why does it depend on what it is running ?

Now that is an abnormally stupid statement"

Why ? Explain please . Someone who burns money has wasted it , took it out of the system and stoped other people getting benefit from it .

dude, I am getting tired of trying to explain everything for you. I will not hand you the truth on a silver platter, use your own brain.

there is no benefit in money. whatever fucked up reality you life in, money is never beneficial. you might think it buys you cloth, food and other goods. but it is nothing else then a food stamp for slaves in a corrupt society, run by assholes, that are not on par with normal human being for over 15 thousand years. we are still building pyramids for a pharaoh, whatever it is you think you see.
if you don't get that, i am truly sorry for you. but ignorance IS a bliss and the paradise on earth belongs to the simple minds, for they do not see in what sort of deep shit we are all in. the system does not give diddly shit about my ten bucks, or a million bucks. they even take into account, that a certain amount will just disappear.

[random note: the 1 and 2 €ent cost much more to produce, then it is worth.]

and the system runs on idiocy of the masses. but at a certain point the unhappiness and suffering of the masses will get critical and surpass its idiocy. there is a reason why revolutions took place in the last few hundred years. and while propaganda calmed it down and made general purpose revolutions of big groups unlikely to impossible, at one point people will not tolerate being treated like they are.

the system is inflated and it will pop.

+ 1000, second that!

I'd like to add: everybody could be able making his own clothes, roof above his head and farm his own food.
Money is UNnecessarely in my opinion.

 

[GOD]

"I will not hand you the truth on a silver platte"

So you know "the" truth ? And you are in a position to give it / explain it ? But you wont . Why not ?

"use your own brain. "

What do you mean ? That i should develope telepathy ? Or do you mean i should explain something that you said that you cant / havent / wont explain ?

"money is never beneficial"

What about when it buys food for starving people ?

"the system does not give diddly shit about my ten bucks"

But a starving kid could use the money you threatened to burn to buy food with .

" you might think it buys you cloth, food and other goods."

How do we get food , clothes and other goods then ? Why do i have to pay in a supermarket ? What are those coins and pieces of paper for ?

"there is a reason why revolutions took place in the last few hundred years"

Isnt it the same reason that there have been atempts at revolution throughout human history ? And why are the revolution atempts in the last 100 years any different to all the others before ?

"the system is inflated and it will pop."

Who do you think it will pop on ? Who do you think will benefit if and when it pops ? Why hasent it poped before ? Why did the russian , french and american people , for example , loose their own revolutions ?

Perpetual motion is something that goes on for infinity . I thought you said that there is no infinity ?

"everybody could be able making his own clothes, roof above his head and farm his own food."

Maybe its theoreticaly possible but not in practice . Different people have different skills and we need a system of exchange so that the ones , for instance , that produce cloaths can buy metal implements from those that produce them . Or do you mean going back to the stone age when only the fitest survived ?

 

[psm]

I'd like to add: everybody could be able making his own clothes, roof above his head and farm his own food.
Money is UNnecessarely in my opinion.

I would go a step further and say, that in a communal life everybody contributes to the wellbeing of everybody and everybody enjoys communal economy in a fair share.

The reason why money was invented was, because trade did evolve beyond simple exchange of goods. it is easier to carry a bag full of gold, then two cows.

My dream is a self-reliable and self-sufficient community of smart people. technically purposefull and able to sustain exclusion from outer world affairs. A system of responsibility properly used skills, knowledge and responsibility...