HPPD, anyone?

[Forkbender]

I think we should stop calling it HPPD then.

Unless anyone here had problems with visual distortions disturbing their day to day life after the drugs wore off?

 

[GOD]

That answer was pathetic . Your own arguments defeat your own arguments .

" it is pointless having this conversation with someone who hasnt experienced it."

That would mean you cant talk about it because you havent got it as you have not been diagnosed with it . Plus i have had and have the symptoms that you are talking about so i can talk about them .

"Nevertheless more than half the people who have voted in the poll have experienced it themselves"

The pole doesnt ask about HPPD or effects caused by psychedelics it asks about visual effects .

 

[maxfreakout]

I think we should stop calling it HPPD then.

Unless anyone here had problems with visual distortions disturbing their day to day life after the drugs wore off?

it might not necessarily 'disturb' day to day life, but it is certainly *present* during day to day life

and HPPD is the generally accepted term for it, although it is a misleading name for several reasons

 

[maxfreakout]

" it is pointless having this conversation with someone who hasnt experienced it."

That would mean you cant talk about it because you havent got it as you have not been diagnosed with it .

you are claiming that it ismpossible to experience any condition unless you are diagnosed with it by a professional

so by your reasoning, you can never catch a cold unless you have been diagnosed with it, which is obviously not true, so your argument fails

Plus i have had and have the symptoms that you are talking about so i can talk about them .

So you have experienced lasting visual distortions following drug use, then you have experienced HPPD, therefore HPPD must exist otherwise you couldnt possibly have had it

"Nevertheless more than half the people who have voted in the poll have experienced it themselves"

The pole doesnt ask about HPPD or effects caused by psychedelics it asks about visual effects .

persisting visual effects following drug use IS HPPD

 

[Forkbender]

persisting visual effects following drug use IS HPPD

No, it is not. You got to be very careful about what words you use, because they can send a message. HPPD is a DISORDER according to the APA. It even says so in the name. I think it is sick to say you got a mental disorder if there is nothing wrong with you. If you do have serious problems go see a doctor instead of self-analyzing.

The symptoms you describe do not fall within the standard definition of HPPD, so we are free to invent a new word for it.

 

[GOD]

"you are claiming that it ismpossible to experience any condition unless you are diagnosed with it by a professional "

You are crass . You quote wiki as proof and then when i do the same with a part of the same article you deny it . It specificly talks about a diagnosis and defines it very clearly .

"so by your reasoning, you can never catch a cold unless you have been diagnosed with it, which is obviously not true, so your argument fails "

Thats your reasoning and your explenation and both have been proved to be wrong over and over in this thread and at least two others .

"So you have experienced lasting visual distortions following drug use, then you have experienced HPPD, therefore HPPD must exist otherwise you couldnt possibly have had it "

Another case of your twisted reasoning . I have had the effects we have talked about before i had trips . I experience visual distortions very often . To say that because i have had HPPD proves that i have had HPPD and that proves that HPPD exists is loony logic / reasoning .

"persisting visual effects following drug use IS HPPD"

That theory has nothing to do with what the pole asks .

 

[maxfreakout]

"so by your reasoning, you can never catch a cold unless you have been diagnosed with it, which is obviously not true, so your argument fails "

Thats your reasoning

no it was your reasoning, you specifically said that you cannot have HPPD unless you have been diagnosed with it. So following your own reasoning, it is impossible to catch a cold until you have seen a doctor and been diagnosed with a cold

"So you have experienced lasting visual distortions following drug use, then you have experienced HPPD, therefore HPPD must exist otherwise you couldnt possibly have had it "

Another case of your twisted reasoning . I have had the effects we have talked about before i had trips . I experience visual distortions very often . To say that because i have had HPPD proves that i have had HPPD and that proves that HPPD exists is loony logic / reasoning ..

if you had it before you had taken drugs, then it is not HPPD. HPPD only applies to the experience of persisting visual distortion following a pscyhedelic trip. If you have experienced HPPD, then you have proved that it exists

 

[maxfreakout]

HPPD is a DISORDER according to the APA. It even says so in the name.

and that is exactly why i said several times that the name 'HPPD' is inaccurate. I am not talking about the name , i am only talking about the condition that it refers to

I think it is sick to say you got a mental disorder if there is nothing wrong with you. If you do have serious problems go see a doctor instead of self-analyzing.

i agree, which is why i said several times that the name 'HPPD' is inaccurate, it isnt necessarily a disorder, it is a condition which is characterized by persisting visual distortion following psychedelic drug use

 

[Forkbender]

if you had it before you had taken drugs, then it is not HPPD. HPPD only applies to the experience of persisting visual distortion following a pscyhedelic trip. If you have experienced HPPD, then you have proved that it exists

Stop calling symptoms HPPD that clearly aren´t. You are twisting the word to fit your description and your experience, but that doesn´t really help anyone in debating this seriously.

If anyone uses the term HPPD from this point on, I will take it as the standard definition by DSM, please consider that.

 

[maxfreakout]

Stop calling symptoms HPPD that clearly aren´t. You are twisting the word to fit your description and your experience, but that doesn´t really help anyone in debating this seriously.

If anyone uses the term HPPD from this point on, I will take it as the standard definition by DSM, please consider that.

i call it HPPD because that is the broadly accepted term for this condition, there is no other term for it that it widely accepted,

also it is the term that the orginal poster used when he posted this thread

DSM is a deeply flawed document that reflects the thinking of medical psychiatry, i do not understand why you would want to limit your understanding of HPPD to just what DSM says about it

forget about the term' HPPD', just think of it as being 'the condition whereby the individual experiences persisting visual distortion in conjunction with the use of psychedelic drugs'. It is just unfortunate that there is no better term for it than 'HPPD'

 

[st.bot.32]

DSM is a deeply flawed document that reflects the thinking of medical psychiatry, i do not understand why you would want to limit your understanding of HPPD to just what DSM says about it

if you think the dsm is a flawed document then why use their term that, being full of negative connotations, puts nothing but a negative spin on the increased awareness of your senses that psychedelics give you?

 

[Forkbender]

Just because many people use the term doesn´t mean it´s right.

You are connecting use of psychedelics to the psych ward even if you don´t want to and that is playing into the hands of people fighting this war on drugs.

 

[ophiuchus]

st.bot:
"you're more aware of your senses and how they work after you've taken psychedelics. i think god can safely say that HPPD is propaganda, because it takes one of the benefits of psychedelics, the opportunity to learn about yourself and how your senses work, and turns all of that into a negative thing. it claims it is a medical condition, which it isn't. it's made up to psyche people out. hence it is anti-drug war propaganda.

normal people who have never taken psychedelics can experience the same pheonomenon. people who meditate and go into trance experience the same phenomenon, without ever having taken drugs."



what say you to that max? many people, MANY MANY people have the EXACT same symptoms as those described in "HPPD" who don't F*ing have HPPD! they dont have HPPD because EVERYONE has HPPD, some people just dont notice, or blame it on other causes that exaggerate it! HPPD is not HPPD because everyone has it, therefore it cannot be a disorder as the D in the term notes...

this is the natural order of life. perceptions aren't perfect, just as your left leg is not perfectly the same length as your right. just because someone is too unaware of their own body to realize that they DO have visual distortions, doesn't mean that they aren't experiencing them. they just never thought about it before, so even if the might have noticed, they just weren't aware and blew it off, or blamed it on :lol: being sleepy, looking at a light too long, working out too intensely, etc etc as we've all already listed..

it's the exact same scenario as a little child versus somebody who is fairly self aware. the aware person doesn't have a disorder, they just realize that they have something that some other people simply haven't realized that they have yet... :idea:

 

[ophiuchus]

also a note: i am using whatever you are describing as the definition for HPPD in your arguements, in mine, since theres no other word

 

[maxfreakout]

if you think the dsm is a flawed document then why use their term that, being full of negative connotations, puts nothing but a negative spin on the increased awareness of your senses that psychedelics give you?

i am using the term HPPD because
1. There is no other widely accepted term that refers to this condition

and

2. It is the term that the original poster used


Because i am well aware that it is a deeply problematic semantic term, i have

1. gone to great effort to repeatedly clarify what exactly i mean by it

and

2. repeatedly acknowledged that it is a problematic term



But i fully appreciate what you are saying, my intention is not to put any negative spin on HPPD, or on psychedelics, i am a dedicated psychonaut just like everybody else is. But again i repeat, there is nothing else to call it


So just forget about the negative social connotations that the term 'HPPD' has, and focus on the narrow, meaningful phenomenological defionition of HPPD, which i have repeated many times, which is

"the condition characterized by persisting visual effects following the end of a psychedleic experience"

whenever i use the term 'HPPD' i am ONLY using it as an abbreviation for this ^ definitoin, i am NOT using it in the psychiatric sense of the term, it is just unfortunate that there is no other widely accepted term for it

i am not talking about the term 'HPPD', i am ONLY talking about the condition that it refers to

if you dont like me calling it HPPD, what would you like me to call it?

 

[maxfreakout]

Just because many people use the term doesn´t mean it´s right.

i agree and that is why i have repeatedly pointed out the problematic nature of the term 'HPPD' and repeatedly insisted that i am only talking about the condition that the label refers to, not the label itself

You are connecting use of psychedelics to the psych ward even if you don´t want to and that is playing into the hands of people fighting this war on drugs.

i am using the word 'HPPd' because there just simply isnt anything else to call it, but i have been as careful as i possibly could be to explicitly clarify exactly what it is that i am talking about

 

[ophiuchus]

um HPP? hallucinogen persisting perception? which is fake regardless cause it was still there beforehand

 

[maxfreakout]

what say you to that max? many people, MANY MANY people have the EXACT same symptoms as those described in "HPPD" who don't F*ing have HPPD! they dont have HPPD because EVERYONE has HPPD, some people just dont notice, or blame it on other causes that exaggerate it! HPPD is not HPPD because everyone has it, therefore it cannot be a disorder as the D in the term notes...

A necessary condition of having HPPD, is that you have taken psychedelics, and observed a direct conjunction between the drug taking and the phenomenological symptoms of the condition.

Furthermore i think that you are distorting the issue with your (unjustified) assertion that "everyone has HPPD". Perhaps to clear this up, it is necessary to add to the definition of HPPD, that the visual distortions that characterize it must be NOTICEABLE

when i look at my floor now, the patterns seem to be very solid, set in concrete, and not moving around. I therefore deduce that i am not currently experiencing HPPD. Whereas a few years ago, if i had looked down at my floor (especially at this time of night) the whole floor would have been alive, the patterns would have been pulsating and dancing around etc. This was when i was experiencing full-blown HPPD.

Therefore i can clearly see a difference betwen having HPPD, and not having HPPD. When you have HPPD, you NOTICE visual distortions in everything you look at

 

[maxfreakout]

um HPP? hallucinogen persisting perception? which is fake regardless cause it was still there beforehand

well that is fine but as i have said, this is not a recognised term for the condition, so it seems a bit strange to arbitrarily invent a term in this thread. Also i think that the 'H' is highly problematic, because the word 'hallucinogen' is deeply flawed, i always call these drugs either 'psychedelics' or 'entheogens'

so we could call it PPP, or EPP, and that would be fine except that noone outside of this thread would know what we were talking about.

And as i already said, there is a clear difference between the visual phenomena encountered during a period of HPPD, so i do not agree that it was 'there beforehand'. No matter how carefully i stare at my floor, the patterns do not dance around like they used to

 

[st.bot.32]

i wouldn't use it because it's a negative term. there's no 100% proof that it exists. the term calls it a disorder. if anything it is just increased awareness of your senses. that's a positive thing, not a disorder. that's why we take psychedelics, for mind expansion and for increasing our awareness. why twist it into a negative thing by calling it a disorder?

the symptoms described by the initial poster are not hppd symptoms. claimed hppd symptoms are severe, lasting months->years after the last use of any hallucinogen (not a few days or weeks) and are debilitating, and in many studies people who claimed to have hppd turned out to have prior problems like schizophrenia or temporal lobe epilepsy. or had never taken psychedelics at all or were frequent marijuana smokers, and guess what, marijuana is a mild hallucinogen

my favorite is one study where a psychologist was able to reproduce the "symptoms" his patient was feeling in himself just by relaxing! (wikipedia links to a great paper on hppd)

i won't say that hppd as a disorder is "impossible", but i would have to see real evidence it exists. if anything, "hppd" is purely a psychological condition. and i have difficulty accepting it is caused by psychedelics when i could experience all the so-called phenomenon of hppd long before i ever took psychedelics, through sensory exploration, trance and hypnogogia..