Creating a sanctuary in Holland
- Auteur de la discussion HeartCore
- Date de début
Kwarkfanaat
Sale drogué·e
- Inscrit
- 2/1/06
- Messages
- 764
I hope you'll be able to get this started in Veenendaal. 'Cause I heard my GF saying there's only one smart/coffee shop in Veenendaal now, who already (too) many people are against.
Keep us posted mate, GREAT initiative!
Keep us posted mate, GREAT initiative!
this is a nice initiative, but there is allready the santo daime for ayahuasca? ok you say not related to religion....
I hope you can work it out. But it seems like a very complex thing to start.
How to make it a real "cure" center and not only a place where people come to have a blast? Because that will be the problem once it is going to get known. Having shamans could partly solve this problem.
Let's cross fingers that you're able to make something good! Though If it is only a tripping place there is much chance I'd never go there, as I'm better at home
I hope you can work it out. But it seems like a very complex thing to start.
How to make it a real "cure" center and not only a place where people come to have a blast? Because that will be the problem once it is going to get known. Having shamans could partly solve this problem.
Let's cross fingers that you're able to make something good! Though If it is only a tripping place there is much chance I'd never go there, as I'm better at home
Thanks for all the replies and the nice pictures
My opinion is that having a blast can be really curing I was never really drawn to Santo Daime personally because of speicific nature of the rituals there (as I understand). But I do fully support people's need for those kind of experiences together in various settings. Therefor, the idea really is to have different sessions if you want to call it that, where different needs are covered. Like silent darkness nights, shamanic nights but I also see inviting someone over to be ambient dj.
I'm not sure really of all those details, we are brainstorming a lot at the moment.
Another option that I want to work out is psychedelic workshops. For example, Entheobaktha encountered a group on his travels in Eastern Europe where workshops where offered about Salvia. Maybe he wants to elaborate some more on this but the general idea was, if I remember correctly, to slowly work to a full experience over the coarse of a day. I think this would be nice to offer since in my experience, general guidelines seem to be lacking a lot. Smartshops could even help advertise this this way helping in a safer way these plants are being used so they can insure continuity in their business (responsible use=less accidents so less concern for the law to look close at smartshops).
Suggestions of what else we could do are welcome
My opinion is that having a blast can be really curing
I was never really drawn to Santo Daime personally because of speicific nature of the rituals there (as I understand). But I do fully support people's need for those kind of experiences together in various settings. Therefor, the idea really is to have different sessions if you want to call it that, where different needs are covered. Like silent darkness nights, shamanic nights but I also see inviting someone over to be ambient dj. I'm not sure really of all those details, we are brainstorming a lot at the moment.
Another option that I want to work out is psychedelic workshops. For example, Entheobaktha encountered a group on his travels in Eastern Europe where workshops where offered about Salvia. Maybe he wants to elaborate some more on this but the general idea was, if I remember correctly, to slowly work to a full experience over the coarse of a day. I think this would be nice to offer since in my experience, general guidelines seem to be lacking a lot. Smartshops could even help advertise this this way helping in a safer way these plants are being used so they can insure continuity in their business (responsible use=less accidents so less concern for the law to look close at smartshops).
Suggestions of what else we could do are welcome
Kwarkfanaat
Sale drogué·e
- Inscrit
- 2/1/06
- Messages
- 764
Hi there!
First of all, I wish you both all the luck with getting this thing off the ground! I feel it will be quite a major breakthrough for the psychonaut community. I hope I can be of some kind of help to you.
Today I’m free from work so I did some brainstorming myself. I just to tried to think of some things that might come in handy. I made up this short list of things that popped into my head:
Some random questions and idea’s
- What will be a good location for the sanctuary in Veenendaal?
- Try and get to know what kind of customers come to the other smart/coffee shops in Veenendaal and where they come from? Maybe even pay a visit yourself so you can get some ideas what (not) to do.
- Will the sanctuary contain completely separated rooms? Or will it be one big space with separations only by simple interior?
- How to set restrictions? Think about the number of people allowed during sessions, discussion groups etc? Maybe you could set up some rules, hang them on the wall and point to them.
- Make people sign-up for discussion groups and informational speaker nights? Just so you can control the number of people that are joining.
- Create a chill-out lounge with sofa’s etc?
- Set up A wall where trip-reports have been printed / written or anything else on? Just to show to the people visiting. Prikbord?
- Giving (through night speakers) information about the latest smartshop materials?
- Suppliing information about product extractions through sessions or by leaflet's given with products perhaps?
- Small advertisements through the music playing? Might save some money.
How to get the people of Veenendaal behind your ideas?
- Get connected with some important people (what you’ve already done I heard).
- Organize an informational meeting amongst ‘youngsters’ to spread the idea? Not too young.
- Make sure you know the legal stuff.
- Try advertising in a (not even local) paper. But it’s essential then to get things out in the public, the –right- way.
Visuals and sound
- Trip video’s edited to look like being on shrooms for example?
- Visualisations through a beamer or dia projector?
- Simple computer for music?
- Artwork? Lot’s of artists here I recon who might be able to contribute?
Informational night speakers
- Azarius representatives?
- Think about government people giving their opinion about psychedelic drugs and society, or churchly men and their ideas about belief and mind altering substances. This might be a tough one, but it’s just an idea.
- Experienced, well-known psychonauts?
Discussion groups
- Themes like: Experiences, legal issues, drug abuse, etc?
Different days/evenings, music enhanced, silent darkness etc
- Different themes like: Art, Music, Games, Sports: all visualized and musicalized in their own way?
- Occasional DJ playing?
- Acoustic (guitar?) sessions?
Some of the things mentioned above you might have mentioned yourself already.
By the way, I can help you out with some things if this thing is getting off the ground. Think about a projection screen, a simple pc for music / visuals, a nice website and video-editing. Free of charge ofcourse. I just love your idea.
Hopefully this information can be of any use. Good luck!
First of all, I wish you both all the luck with getting this thing off the ground! I feel it will be quite a major breakthrough for the psychonaut community. I hope I can be of some kind of help to you.
Today I’m free from work so I did some brainstorming myself. I just to tried to think of some things that might come in handy. I made up this short list of things that popped into my head:
Some random questions and idea’s
- What will be a good location for the sanctuary in Veenendaal?
- Try and get to know what kind of customers come to the other smart/coffee shops in Veenendaal and where they come from? Maybe even pay a visit yourself so you can get some ideas what (not) to do.
- Will the sanctuary contain completely separated rooms? Or will it be one big space with separations only by simple interior?
- How to set restrictions? Think about the number of people allowed during sessions, discussion groups etc? Maybe you could set up some rules, hang them on the wall and point to them.
- Make people sign-up for discussion groups and informational speaker nights? Just so you can control the number of people that are joining.
- Create a chill-out lounge with sofa’s etc?
- Set up A wall where trip-reports have been printed / written or anything else on? Just to show to the people visiting. Prikbord?
- Giving (through night speakers) information about the latest smartshop materials?
- Suppliing information about product extractions through sessions or by leaflet's given with products perhaps?
- Small advertisements through the music playing? Might save some money.
How to get the people of Veenendaal behind your ideas?
- Get connected with some important people (what you’ve already done I heard).
- Organize an informational meeting amongst ‘youngsters’ to spread the idea? Not too young.
- Make sure you know the legal stuff.
- Try advertising in a (not even local) paper. But it’s essential then to get things out in the public, the –right- way.
Visuals and sound
- Trip video’s edited to look like being on shrooms for example?
- Visualisations through a beamer or dia projector?
- Simple computer for music?
- Artwork? Lot’s of artists here I recon who might be able to contribute?
Informational night speakers
- Azarius representatives?
- Think about government people giving their opinion about psychedelic drugs and society, or churchly men and their ideas about belief and mind altering substances. This might be a tough one, but it’s just an idea.
- Experienced, well-known psychonauts?
Discussion groups
- Themes like: Experiences, legal issues, drug abuse, etc?
Different days/evenings, music enhanced, silent darkness etc
- Different themes like: Art, Music, Games, Sports: all visualized and musicalized in their own way?
- Occasional DJ playing?
- Acoustic (guitar?) sessions?
Some of the things mentioned above you might have mentioned yourself already.
By the way, I can help you out with some things if this thing is getting off the ground. Think about a projection screen, a simple pc for music / visuals, a nice website and video-editing. Free of charge ofcourse
. I just love your idea.Hopefully this information can be of any use. Good luck!
I`m glad yo hear and read that u are back on track HC
I followed your topic before about this idea
and I almost feared that u were not going thru with the idea
but u have all my support and I will surtainly be there..
I know where to find you
so we'll speak about this
I followed your topic before about this idea
and I almost feared that u were not going thru with the idea
but u have all my support and I will surtainly be there..
I know where to find you
so we'll speak about this
EntheoBhakta
Neurotransmetteur
- Inscrit
- 25/4/06
- Messages
- 50
Great to see that people are starting to really feel moved to doing some practical brainstorming: very cool, very creative and potentially very helpful.
I'd like to suggest to HCore (and all interested here) that the event of such practical input is a sign that its time, as he prob already feels/knows, to set-up some form of a project management interface (can be a forum, a wiki or an actual OpenS project management app like activeCollab, etc) so that this dialogue, which will very quickly outgrow the scope, scale and features of a mere forum structure like this, can have room to get grounded and a focused dialogue established.
I have over a year of successful online collab experience with a culturally mixed group of co-creators (different project) from all over the planet. I know this can work.
)
....will wait for word from HCore about what he thinks and what's the next step.
-peace!
I'd like to suggest to HCore (and all interested here) that the event of such practical input is a sign that its time, as he prob already feels/knows, to set-up some form of a project management interface (can be a forum, a wiki or an actual OpenS project management app like activeCollab, etc) so that this dialogue, which will very quickly outgrow the scope, scale and features of a mere forum structure like this, can have room to get grounded and a focused dialogue established.
I have over a year of successful online collab experience with a culturally mixed group of co-creators (different project) from all over the planet. I know this can work.
)....will wait for word from HCore about what he thinks and what's the next step.
-peace!
Word
Planned to setup and test tomorrow morning.
Kwark, very nice list! Will get back to that as soon as I have a place ready online to put those up for discussion. Very valid points though.
Biggest point seems to be location. A nice big hut in the woods would be great but not really realistic I think.
I don't think any information is illegal in Holland except if you are preaching murder, hate or are discriminating so I dont expect problems there. There is a big difference in law between taking drugs and talking drugs, thank god
But all your ideas sound really nice Kwark, keeping them airtight till we have the webstuff going tomorrow.
Pro, this idea never really left my mind, it's been there a lot longer than just last year, great to have your support
Great to have all your support
Planned to setup and test tomorrow morning.
Kwark, very nice list! Will get back to that as soon as I have a place ready online to put those up for discussion. Very valid points though.
Biggest point seems to be location. A nice big hut in the woods would be great but not really realistic I think.
I don't think any information is illegal in Holland except if you are preaching murder, hate or are discriminating so I dont expect problems there. There is a big difference in law between taking drugs and talking drugs, thank god
But all your ideas sound really nice Kwark, keeping them airtight till we have the webstuff going tomorrow.
Pro, this idea never really left my mind, it's been there a lot longer than just last year, great to have your support
Great to have all your support
Kwarkfanaat
Sale drogué·e
- Inscrit
- 2/1/06
- Messages
- 764
HeartCore a dit:
Holding on to them
Isn't it great to see how many people feel like this would be a great thing to set up? 8)
EntheoBhakta
Neurotransmetteur
- Inscrit
- 25/4/06
- Messages
- 50
...men!
PS: and how many are starting to track this project's progress!
)
PS: and how many are starting to track this project's progress!
)First of all, great idea!
I was wondering, are you sure there is no place alike in the Netherlands? I saw this for example:
Puberruil XL: http://www.puberruil.kro.nl/
At around 10 min you can see them going to a hippie-vrijplaats(refuge) in the woods. This could be sort of an example maybe? You know, everybody contributing to building the site, i was visiting this castle in France where all kinds of people (painters, paranormal, massage, music artist, etc etc) would visit for a couple of weeks and give courses. Very beautiful atmosphere
And i read this for example:
http://www.drugsforum.nl/viewtopic.php?t=4569
You think this is the sainte-daime curch or could it be another organisation? Maybe there is someone allready building your idea and able to help? Take care!
I was wondering, are you sure there is no place alike in the Netherlands? I saw this for example:
Puberruil XL: http://www.puberruil.kro.nl/
At around 10 min you can see them going to a hippie-vrijplaats(refuge) in the woods. This could be sort of an example maybe? You know, everybody contributing to building the site, i was visiting this castle in France where all kinds of people (painters, paranormal, massage, music artist, etc etc) would visit for a couple of weeks and give courses. Very beautiful atmosphere
And i read this for example:
http://www.drugsforum.nl/viewtopic.php?t=4569
You think this is the sainte-daime curch or could it be another organisation? Maybe there is someone allready building your idea and able to help? Take care!
petfles a dit:First of all, great idea!
I was wondering, are you sure there is no place alike in the Netherlands? I saw this for example:
Puberruil XL: http://www.puberruil.kro.nl/
At around 10 min you can see them going to a hippie-vrijplaats(refuge) in the woods. This could be sort of an example maybe? You know, everybody contributing to building the site, i was visiting this castle in France where all kinds of people (painters, paranormal, massage, music artist, etc etc) would visit for a couple of weeks and give courses. Very beautiful atmosphere
And i read this for example:
http://www.drugsforum.nl/viewtopic.php?t=4569
You think this is the sainte-daime curch or could it be another organisation? Maybe there is someone allready building your idea and able to help? Take care!
Hi petfles and thanks for your reply.
A vrijplaats is not what we are intending, this would create an us/them situation very quick I think. we dont aim for a specific group, we aim for people. with this in mind, we want to create the environment as neutral as possible. Motivating but not overdone, in a way that people don't get their freak alarm up right away but can hold that in untill the actual drug start to do their job
Just kidding, I dont know what that is on drugsforum but there are a few options in Holland where you can experience these things. 'de Geweide reis' is one of them. I dont want to judge any of those initiatives and I think they are great. However, one motivation I have is a quote from Terence Mckenna where he basically says that instead of having large groups tripping mildly, we should aim for smaller groups which go deeper.
So in the very basis of the plan, thats what we want to offer. A place where you can feel safe to take these plants. Sometimes we will have sessions with music, we may try to invite a shaman occasionally, and we will have silent darkness nights. There are no limits to what we can do since we don't commit ourselves to a right or wrong way to do this. Curing with aya is mostly on conservative doses and if you are over average height/weight, you will have a very hard time to get a good enough dose induce a real visionary state when looking for the experience in Peru. And what I hear from people who have been to sessions like this in Holland, it seems to be the same. Even more so, in general people will display great concern as of not overdosing visitors.
What I hear lot from people, is that when they take aya in a controlled envirionment in Holland, it generally is a disappointment in the way that they would have loved to go much deeper.
So we want to make possible both ways which will make intake interviews very important since there 'we' have to figure out by asking the right questions, if we feel someone is capable of living through such a dose.
Update: the project app is up and running, more info follows soon
Kwarkfanaat
Sale drogué·e
- Inscrit
- 2/1/06
- Messages
- 764
I'm really excited about how things are currently going. I just finished most of my school work so I was hoping to contribute via the site.
.. only the projectsite is unreachable? :roll:
Cya soon
.. only the projectsite is unreachable? :roll:
Cya soon
Little update. The idea is not dead but we/I am still very much looking into a lot of things.
One thing for example is the context. I've been researching some options regarding hosting psychedelic sessions for groups. So at least some sort of shamanic background would be great. Years back. I participated in a shaman workshop in Nijmegen but I never could really get into that. No plants, only drumming and rattling. So via a good friend I found a perfect training, so it looked, one year training, two sundays per monht with a lot of psychedelic sessions. The 2000 euros where a lot but I decided to dig em up.
Just before finalizing this training, I found out that this training does not use any hallucinogenic plants. They may be used during individual sessions but the majority of the training is drumming and rattling.
So I canceled that.
So I'm not sure what would be workable. We could opt to just make available a space to trip but I have a feeling this doesnt work very good. Also the legal site of it will be harder to deal with since we can't hide behind religion of freedom.
We are still brainstorming. Another option would be for us to open a smartshop in Veenendaal which will bring a whole host of other problems to deal with. The smartshop could then, in name of some paper organisation, host sessions. The issue with that is that my girlfriend and me have to be really determined to make a living out of that and to be honest, I dont see a smartshop making big profits at the moment. We dont want big profits but we want to at least be able to live from it.
I'm also seriously considering to say fuck it all and just relax and leave my life and try to be happy
Just kidding, I'll keep this updated with news
One thing for example is the context. I've been researching some options regarding hosting psychedelic sessions for groups. So at least some sort of shamanic background would be great. Years back. I participated in a shaman workshop in Nijmegen but I never could really get into that. No plants, only drumming and rattling. So via a good friend I found a perfect training, so it looked, one year training, two sundays per monht with a lot of psychedelic sessions. The 2000 euros where a lot but I decided to dig em up.
Just before finalizing this training, I found out that this training does not use any hallucinogenic plants. They may be used during individual sessions but the majority of the training is drumming and rattling.
So I canceled that.
So I'm not sure what would be workable. We could opt to just make available a space to trip but I have a feeling this doesnt work very good. Also the legal site of it will be harder to deal with since we can't hide behind religion of freedom.
We are still brainstorming. Another option would be for us to open a smartshop in Veenendaal which will bring a whole host of other problems to deal with. The smartshop could then, in name of some paper organisation, host sessions. The issue with that is that my girlfriend and me have to be really determined to make a living out of that and to be honest, I dont see a smartshop making big profits at the moment. We dont want big profits but we want to at least be able to live from it.
I'm also seriously considering to say fuck it all and just relax and leave my life and try to be happy
Just kidding, I'll keep this updated with news
amoak
Alpiniste Kundalini
- Inscrit
- 11/5/06
- Messages
- 670
HeartCore a dit:
The best way and the real and only way for me to learn about shamanism is to learn directly from the plants and with nature , if you can't learn alone is because you don't have power to do it and to see it,but pay to learn about shamanism is really bad idea is just something that you can never learn like this way you need to understand yourself and no need drums and no special teks ,shamanism is not like mathematics ,is better learn with the visions but if you don't have it so is not for you just fly and learn.
I go in the end of this year to Peru to have my first painting course and i want live there for long time maybe all my life i just hate this kind of society were i live, and no need money just work and help them , that's life
I think with that kind of course you will become a "Chicken Shaman"
And a person who really believes and know shamanism never will look for a shamanic course because shamanism is much obvious for those who are shamans and most of them dicover it when they are still young
I agree with you Amoak and I guess I was more or less hoping for a plantteacher her in Holland. Looks like I have to save up for a trip to the amazon after all....
I dont agree completely. Personally, I have been looking for a course in shamanism when I was 21. Mind you, back then there was no internet, no affinity groups (at least not where I lived) and applying for such a course was at that time a method to come to terms with the experiences I had with mushrooms.
And I do believe a course lead by a psychedelic shaman can be helpful for anyone who wants/needs to go that way. If only for learning to brew a better brew of to grow some confidence. At least, thats it for me. I have no fear in taking 120 grams mushrooms by myself but I freak out when I have to sit. Even when I'm sober
I dont agree completely. Personally, I have been looking for a course in shamanism when I was 21. Mind you, back then there was no internet, no affinity groups (at least not where I lived) and applying for such a course was at that time a method to come to terms with the experiences I had with mushrooms.
And I do believe a course lead by a psychedelic shaman can be helpful for anyone who wants/needs to go that way. If only for learning to brew a better brew of to grow some confidence. At least, thats it for me. I have no fear in taking 120 grams mushrooms by myself but I freak out when I have to sit. Even when I'm sober
