Can a psychonaut be a psychonaut without drugs?

[IJesusChrist]

Hey max, have you ever thought about listening, rather than explaining?

You seem to think you have more to offer than anyone else, and that no one is more truthful than yourself, and it becomes quite annoying, time after time, post after post, of you saying the same things over and over and never once questioning why we question you.

 

[ararat]

to max, other people are merely means to explain his creed to and correct them in whatever they might say. in the "on killing the ego" thread we've had enough of that already.

 

[Guest]

If we define 'psychonaut' as 'a person who explores the depths of the mind', then it is practically a truism that you cannot be a psychonaut without repeated use of these drugs, because it is only when you are actually tripping on drugs that 'exploring the mind' becomes a real possibility, during the ordinary (sober, undrugged) state of consciousness, the mind is invisible

Since when drugs are the only way to experience an altered state of consciousness?

I've recently started doing body suspensions, I can tell you that the experience is as mind-blowing (and somewhat humbling) than a strong psychedelic experience, and no drugs were taken at all.

And it's merely a single example.

 

[Crimzen]

during a psychedelic trip, the mind becomes manifest as an object of perception, and therefore psychedelia (ie intense tripping) is a pre-requisite for psychonautism. In the ordinary state of consciousness, the mind is completely hidden/invisible, it requires the drugs to make it come out of hiding.

Firstly, the mind is always an object of perception, otherwise all the people who havnt taken drugs have NO perception?
THE MIND IS COMPLETELY HIDDEN? i dont know how the hell you function in day to day life man... are you some kind of robot or zombie who is only able to think and imagine under the influence of psychedelic drugs?

and without the drugs, it is practically impossible (not merely 'taking more time and effort') to get to that place

there is no technique, besides taking entheogens, which allows you to controllably, repeatably, reliably experience the psychedelic state which is a pre-requisite for psychonautism

Obviously you've not spent enough time nor effort on trying to 'get to that place'
I like how you KNOW without having actually tried everything, how long have you been meditating for? how other do you lucid dream?

calling drugs a 'crutch' is as senseless as calling oxygen a 'crutch', you need drugs to trip hard reliably and repeatably (ie whenever you want to), and you need oxygen to breathe. No techinique of 'using your mind properly' will enable you to trip hard without taking drugs

No, we were born with our minds which can function in many different ways without drugs, out lungs cannot function without oxygen
Are we talking about being a psychonaut or 'tripping hard'??? because there is a distinct difference and im not sure you're 'doing it right'..

Lucid dreaming isnt a technique that can be used, and there are no techniques which repeatably and reliably cause you to have lucid dreams. Taking psychedelic drugs is a technique which allows you to repeatably and reliably trigger psychedelic altered state experiences, and there are no other techniques besides drugs which allows you to do this

Lucid dreaming IS a technique which can be used, it just takes time and effort on learning to master the technique, there are techniques to trigger lucid dreaming, im not sure if you've even read about lucid dreaming because one of the first things i read about them are the techniques on how to induce them.

Now you said lucid dreaming is an experience and not a technique and that drugs are a technique
i say psychedelic drugs are an experience not a technique and that dreams and meditation are techniques (to name a couple)
A technique is something you as an entity do, drugs are external, they are a tool not a technique

All in all max i think you need to learn to drop your defences and open both your heart and your mind to let yourself find what you are looking for
It seems to me you're very certain about many things, but when you solidify your thoughts then there is no room for correction nor room for different perspectives
You dont need to accept what anyone else has to say, but at least consider what others say or you'll simply be stuck isolated within your mind which you find to be so restricted

 

[maxfreakout]

If we define 'psychonaut' as 'a person who explores the depths of the mind', then it is practically a truism that you cannot be a psychonaut without repeated use of these drugs, because it is only when you are actually tripping on drugs that 'exploring the mind' becomes a real possibility, during the ordinary (sober, undrugged) state of consciousness, the mind is invisible

Since when drugs are the only way to experience an altered state of consciousness?

It is one specific subset of 'altered states' that is relevant to mind-exploration, - ie psychedelic states. The entheogens trigger intense psychedelic state experiences automatically whenever they are ingested in sufficient quantities

 

[darkwolfunseen]

Definition-Wise: Mescaline hit it on the nail. A Psychonaut is a "Sailor of the Mind". Think Flammarion woodcut. (http://betterbrandstory.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Flammarion-Woodcut1.jpg).

Logic-Wise: Expanding one's mind through non-conventional state's of mind. Mentioned numerous times already that this is possible without any entheogens.

Either way you look at, the sufficient condition to be a psychonaut is to explore the mind, that's it. People become confused because they think that the root of Pscyhonaut comes from the word psychedelic, while, in reality they both share the root for "mind".

 

[maxfreakout]

the mind is always an object of perception, otherwise all the people who havnt taken drugs have NO perception?

You should read Huxley - Doors of perception, he explains the whole concept of psychedelia (mind-manifestation), this is the whole point of why these drugs were labelled 'psychedelic', and the experiences they trigger 'psychedelic trips'. This is a way of contrasting the ordinary (non-psychedelic) state of consciousness with the psychedelic state of consciousness as 2 entirely separate cognitive modalities.

In the ordinary state of consciousness, you perceive mental representations of objects (such as tables, chairs, people etc), when you take a big dose of acid, the mental viewpoint is temporarily raised up a level (to the meta-perceptive level) so that you now perceive the underlying medium of representation which is entirely concealed in the ordinary state

a good analogy: the ordinary state is like staring into the surface of a perfectly still pool of water, and seeing the perfect, flawless reflections of buildings on the side of the pool. The psychedelic state is like throwing a pebble into the pool, so that the whole surface of the water is disrupted, and the reflections ripple and disintegrate. When the pebble is thrown, the surface of the pool becomes visible, whereas when the surface is perfectly still, it is invisible.

Or another analogy is seeing a glitch in a film reel during a movie at a cinema - the underlying medium of representation is exposed whereas normally it is invisible

or another analogy: - when you have a glass of water, you cant see the underlying shape of the movement of the molecules in the water, but when you drop some ink into the water, that shape becomes revealed. Taking entheogens is like dropping ink into the mind

THE MIND IS COMPLETELY HIDDEN?

in the ordinary state of consciousness, because then one can only perceive reflections in the still-pool of mind/consciousness. In order to perceive the mind itself, you have to reveal it by throwing an entheogenic pebble into the pool.....

Are we talking about being a psychonaut or 'tripping hard'???

Psychonautics is all about tripping hard, and mapping/modelling the altered state experiences. The mindblowing trips are the pinnacle of psychonautics, just as manned spaceflight is the pinnacle of astronautics

Lucid dreaming IS a technique which can be used

the lucid dreams themselves are not techniques, they are experiences, and there are no guaranteed techniques for triggering the dream-experiences.

it just takes time and effort on learning to master the technique, there are techniques to trigger lucid dreaming, im not sure if you've even read about lucid dreaming because one of the first things i read about them are the techniques on how to induce them.

there are many books about lucid dreaming, but not one of them can tell you a technique for automatically triggering lucid dreams (in the way that taking drugs automatically triggers psychedelic experiences).

i say psychedelic drugs are an experience not a technique

this is an obvious category error, psychedelic drugs are physical substances, not experiences. Ingesting the drugs is the technique by which you can trigger the altered state experiences

and that dreams and meditation are techniques

meditation is a technique - it is something that you DO, but lucid dreaming is not a technique, because you cant 'do' it, you just have to hope that it happens when you fall asleep

A technique is something you as an entity do, drugs are external, they are a tool not a technique

the drugs themselves are the tool, the deliberate ingestion of those drugs is a technique

 

[structure4]

Gone

 

[Crimzen]

lucid dreaming is in fact a technique
through time and effort you could come to realise this
you can dam near guarantee it if you train yourself to do so but you seem to have given up on anything other than psychedelics

i do like your analogy of the ripple in the pond and the surface however the analogy for the film shows how one can in fact be a psychonaut without drugs
Film was created by someone who, independently from the usage of drugs, discovered that if you flash images before the eye in fast succession they can blur together
one only needs to THINK and IMAGINE to discover what you can discover on psychedelics, just learn to drop certain barriers yourself
once during a conversation with a friend of mine about thought he said to me (and im paraphrasing) 'the thoughts are all there floating around, what you consciously think is just the thought that your mind grabbed..."
this line of thinking can lead to knowing that you can consciously pick thoughts at your own free will from your subconscious

instead of having things presented to you, you should put in the effort yourself to find them
instead of using drugs which can show you the way, try to learn the way yourself
its very liberating to know that you can find what you need independently

hindus and buddhists (and various other spiritual people throughout time) have found many layers of consciousness and perspective, perhaps more than you will ever find no matter how much drugs you take my friend
I wonder max if you ever think about things from different perspectives, those which are different from what you think normally, it may be a useful exercise to try thinking of a topic and your opinion on it, then look at the topic from someone elses perspective, other people involved with said topic, complete indifference to said topic, for and against, and on and on..

On point though
Can someone be a psychonaut without drugs?
Yes because; a psychonaut is, quite simply, someone who explores their mind
If you have a mind and can think and imagine then all you need to do is look.

 

[BrainEater]

i think maxfreakout is just a wannabee knowitall... however for that he seems quite nescient and naive. in addition to that also a bit fanatical. i hope we will not get stung so much. but mmh yeah the topic itself is a bit of a mystery so to me it doesn't even make so much sense to appear to be oh so scientific and whatnot. :arrow: :idea:

you want to say the only possibility for making spaceships is if we have drugs?? but don't we produce just these chemicals by ourselves in our own brains and the external drugs' chemicals just trigger our owns' chemicals production? i am sure and i agree that without psychedelics it may be but doesn't have to be a lot more difficult to enter expanded states of consciousness yet nevertheless i think you have overlooked for example the very much underrated power of (self-)hypnosis or/and stimulation with music etc etc.
go on like that and you will be more and more in your own (little,unfair?) world. think for yourself yeah but not like it seems to me in such a obsessive manner. your fleet will be crushed anyway if you want war. please don't get me wrong tho. i'm all for the greater appreciation and acceptance of entheogenic psychedelic drugs but not at the price of having an open mind. well it's maybe different for everybody in a way and we just try to find a consensus but if you or anyone tries to enforce his own view, even if it may be the view of many others too, then it's time to watch out and pay attention to how it may be it's just a war of egos or ego-conglomerations. :arrow: :arrow: :axe:

so maybe it has to do a bit with the degree that your DNA has been activated. it is much more powerful than we were made to believe. besides meditation and concentration are in my opinion still the most underrated and powerful tools of psychonautism. needless to say that combined with the power of imagination or also entheogenic drugs, the potential increases remarkably. our brain is essentially like a quantum-computer which means it uses light for the states of computation of which also psychedelic states of mind or consciousness may be a part of. furtheremore in my interpretation
consciousness in its purest "form" can be seen as equal to light but well i am just speculating there.
it seems to me dreams are just another form of reality while reality may be just another form of dreams.
surely therefore we all are probably attached way too much to the world of forms. whether we are aware of that or not is a different subject of matter tho. 8)
ok thats it for now and keep in my mind that i am mostly speculating alright? i want y'all to think for yourselves.


peace to all psychon(a?)uts!!!! :weedman:

 

[maxfreakout]

you want to say the only possibility for making spaceships is if we have drugs?? but don't we produce just these chemicals by ourselves in our own brains and the external drugs' chemicals just trigger our owns' chemicals production?

DMT is the only one of the classic entheogens which is produced endogenously, and even though DMT is present in small amounts in the blood etc, that certainly does not imply that it is possible to have a DMt trip on command, the only way to have any kind of drug-experience on command, including DMT, is to take drugs.

i am sure and i agree that without psychedelics it may be but doesn't have to be a lot more difficult to enter expanded states of consciousness yet nevertheless i think you have overlooked for example the very much underrated power of (self-)hypnosis or/and stimulation with music etc etc.

without psychedelics it is *practically impossible* to experience intense mind-manifesting states of consciousness reliably and repeatably, no amount of hypnosis or music will give you the ability to trip on-command

it's a question of statistical efficacy, put 10 people in a room and give them all acid, and all 10 of them will have a psychedelic experience, put 10 people in a room and get them to try hypnotising themselves, and none of them will have a psychedelic experience

 

[IJesusChrist]

You say nothing new and only the same. Argue and disagree, why are you here mate? To prove us all wrong? To prove yourself right? Why are you here - and when you figure that out try and frame your posts around that... you aren't teaching or learning in any constructive manner.

I don't want to say "we don't like you" but it's very apparent that this may become the case. . .

Max, I have fallen to my knees crying because of hallucinations, thoughts, and CEV's that were so beautiful and meaningful, yet I was sober.

I have entered into psychedelic thought loops and almost killed myself, much to the mirror of a hard psychedelic trip, yet I was sober.

I've woken up some mornings and completely been changed, as if born again, as is often the case with strong trips, yet I had not taken a psychedelic the previous night.

DMT is endogenous, so are many others. In different concentrations they have dramatically different effects and can become extremely like psychedelic trips, hence serotonin syndrome, hence schizophrenics take lithium pills, hence we HAVE schizophrenics, hence my previous experiences..

No, we cannot induce psilocybin trips, or LSD trips, or anything else that is not endogenous, that does not mean that we cannot have a mirrored experience, or even something grander. Drugs are tools to the brain, the brain has plenty of other tools in itself to use. There are many paths to one destination, and plenty are able by the sober (wo)man

 

[Crimzen]

No, we cannot induce psilocybin trips, or LSD trips, or anything else that is not endogenous, that does not mean that we cannot have a mirrored experience, or even something grander. Drugs are tools to the brain, the brain has plenty of other tools in itself to use. There are many paths to one destination, and plenty are able by the sober (wo)man

:thumbsup:

 

[BrainEater]

maxfreakout i am still not convinced of your seemingly implied claim to be able to think for yourself. nor of your arguments that you defend so much ... hmm maybe it's a matter of skill, spiritual dedication ("entering intense mind-manifesting states of consciousness reliably and repeatably") ?? i think you can learn it, so in my view it may be easier but also harder, if you already experienced various psychedelic or expanded states of consciousness. my opinion is the same like before tho... i think you need to somewhat open or free your mind more ... i dunno.. maybe just generally or on your trips try to be more open for epiphanies..oh and i didn't want to be offensive or disrespective.. sorry if it came thru like that or so...

you know like what strikes me most about your belief (mind you it's belief, not knowledge) ?? it's that a spiritual experience should only be possible to be experienced by being dependant on material things... but well yeah then again it's like all is spirit anyway and plants "have" a spirit, too... etc etc

regarding the quote in the statement in the last post..i am not saying i really disagree because if we would produce a psylocibin trip for example in our brain, then maybe it would already be a different substance like psylocibin?? i know how very very complex brain chemistry is, so right there it could be just a matter of definition, too, and it could be beneficial to not get lost and confused in insignificant bullshit etc etc... but....
keep preaching that to yourself in order to enslave at least your own mind with fear to a relative high probability or not (or to comfortably remain in the state of fear that you got used to and you think you know?) ??? oh and also regarding fear.. i think the fear of something may often be worse than the something. for example i used to have a lot of fear of insanity and it was really terrible and much, much worse having , than the times when i think that i actually experienced insanity... hmm i hope you get what i'm sayin...lol
it seems like fear of insanity often can evolve or lead to insanity. apart from that like so many other things, insanity seems to be quite subjective to your own interpretation and what for one is insanity, for the other may be not??
i wonder..

...cuz many people had spiritual experiences without taking drugs, you know?? and i am not entirely but relatively sure that at least some of them leastwise may have resembled experiences to be accredited to the mentioned entheogens. and the word entheogen coincidentally means "god generates within" or something like that... so maybe the conclusion is that we need to seek god more within ourselves in the first place. or that some plants are able to generate god within, obviously, because they can give us godly experiences? well i must admit i don't really know, however it's still a very interesting idea to think or speculate about.

but hmm it's also obvious that there is so much nescience and ignorance.. both spirituality and drug use generally have been suppressed/controlled a great deal and quite harshly.. "they" don't want you to recognize and realize your true potential etc etc but i want that so just try your best please! i heard it is written: seek and you shall find.
my belief is that reality itself is sort of like a psychedelic experience... so maybe the government bastards etc try to suppress reality and want to push us into illusion.. stupid motherfuckers!!... well anyway..

peace to the god(s) !!!!



p.s. wtf!? why is it that some of the best smilies got removed??
hm maybe if you have a very sensitive mind or so try to take what i say with a pinch of salt!!

 

[maxfreakout]

a spiritual experience should only be possible to be experienced by being dependant on material things...

this is irrelevant to what i am saying, because the fact is you are utterly dependant on the plants to have ANY kind of experience, not just the spiritual/trippy ones, the green plants give you every breath of oxygen (which is a material substance just like drugs are), so therefore we are all completely 'dependant on material things' all the time, not just in order to trip

cuz many people had spiritual experiences without taking drugs, you know?? and i am not entirely but relatively sure that at least some of them leastwise may have resembled experiences to be accredited to the mentioned entheogens.

it would help if you would carefully read what i am saying and try to understand it, i am fully aware that 'many people had spiritual experiences without taking drugs', i have never contradicted that, my point is that you cannot trigger intense mind-manifesting states of consciousness controllably (ie repeatably, reliably, safely 'on tap') without entheogens

some plants are able to generate god within, obviously, because they can give us godly experiences?

Exactly, the entheogens produce 'divine' (transcendent, mystical) experiences repeatably and reliably, they are a tool which is perfectly designed to trigger intense mystical states of consciousness, and without the tools, these experiences are off-limits to normal human beings for exploration

both spirituality and drug use generally have been suppressed/controlled a great deal and quite harshly..

yes because true spirituality (that is, esoteric/mystical-state spirituality) is practically the same thing as drug-use

 

[maxfreakout]

Max, I have fallen to my knees crying because of hallucinations, thoughts, and CEV's that were so beautiful and meaningful, yet I was sober.

I have entered into psychedelic thought loops and almost killed myself, much to the mirror of a hard psychedelic trip, yet I was sober.

I've woken up some mornings and completely been changed, as if born again, as is often the case with strong trips, yet I had not taken a psychedelic the previous night.

These ^ 3 experiences you describe are all fairly commonly experienced in the psychedelic altered state of consciousness, and only very rarely experienced in the sober state

DMT is endogenous, so are many others

again, none of the other known entheogens are endogenous besides DMT, this is not a point to be disputed, check your facts

 

[BrainEater]

hmm well i think i know what your point is, man... i guess i mostly agree and it's like i expected lol... it seems that to a great extent we are just debating/fighting over (subjective) definitions/interpretations and basically we are only trying to make or even convince the other to think how/what we think or shit like that..
regarding the induction or even triggering of a spontaneous DMT-trip like experience or as you name it, a intense mind-manifesting state of consciousness... in my view actually daydreaming could be just that... think about it... also if i may quote myself "maybe it's a matter of skill, spiritual dedication?"... and hmm ...
god can do anything, man...
i suppose it could be worthwhile to ponder upon why/what god obviously wants to do or not... (or upon what you know about god or what "he" does?) or even also what/who/where/etc etc god IS? if reality "really" IS a dream, then god is the best hypnotist for sure, anyway... 8)

my point is that reality itself seems to me to be like a psychedelic experience quite often and hence like a dream or vice versa. maybe the question then is what dreams really are or what meaning they (can) have?? i think dreams are the most basic level of psychonautism. interestingly enough DMT seems to be a brain + body - chemical and generally thought to be related to spiritual and dream realities, as well. i wonder whether DMT is like a basic mechanism of imagination, whatever that may be, in the form of a chemical or spiritual molecule or molecular machine. my idea of that is similar to "wheels within wheels", if you have some spiritual knowledge or understanding.

in my belief creation and evolution don't have to be contradictive or mutually exclusive concepts. actually i think combined in the right way, they might be unfolded better and more naturally.

maybe the question now is what is the real question??

what has DMT got to do with hypnosis?? :idea: :arrow: :?:

i just thought maybe this short chinese parable can be suggestive in a good way related to the topic, i like it a lot:

Once Zhuangzi dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Zhuangzi. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuangzi. But he didn't know if he was Zhuangzi who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Zhuangzi. Between Zhuangzi and a butterfly there must be some distinction! This is called the Transformation of Things.
rayer: :unibrow:

peace!


p.s. sorry that i had to edit my posts quite a bit.. i hope you can understand what i mean... well...i am a bit confused now...

 

[ararat]

it would help if you would carefully read what i am saying and try to understand it, i am fully aware that 'many people had spiritual experiences without taking drugs', i have never contradicted that, my point is that you cannot trigger intense mind-manifesting states of consciousness controllably (ie repeatably, reliably, safely 'on tap') without entheogens

maybe life just isn't there to be controlled.


also, a shame about the :weedman:, no idea what happened to him

 

[Crimzen]

These ^ 3 experiences you describe are all fairly commonly experienced in the psychedelic altered state of consciousness, and only very rarely experienced in the sober state

So you admit that it is possible to experience this in a sober state
whether or not its rare or common is not the issue
from this statement alone i can see that you're arguing for the sake of argument as you've basically done a 360

im done here
i think its a waste of time to try and discuss things with someone who is so obviously closed to ideas different from his own, its a shame but what can ya do? clearly max KNOWS everything

peace.

 

[ophiuchus]

if zen doctrine is acknowledged here to any degree, and i believe it should, the entire arguement becomes a moot point.

acknowledge that there is a gradient, and for the most part, everyone becomes right.



...yeah, how are you gonna keep the :snakeman: and get rid of the :weedman: ?? ...