Alienation

[Caduceus Mercurius]

I believe everyone is meant to be enlightened, together.

I don't. Perhaps we have a different interpretation of the word enlightenment, but in any case enlightenment happens to some, but it isn't possible for all. A society as a whole may become more and more enlightenment, in that more information is available to everyone. The intelligentsia of a century ago sure were smart and learned fellows, but they didn't have even a fraction of the information available the intelligentsia have now. In that sense the human race has never been as enlightened as it has been today. Now the human race has a section in its brain that's called Wikipedia, another called Erowid, and all of it interlinked like never before. A child born in this era can attain enlightenment in a very short time, if that is his or her destiny, but not all children will. Most children will become the mundane people that make the world go round. You may endeavor to enlighten as many people as you can, but be satisfied with whatever little result you will attain.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

But then the matrix closes in via programming from school, mass media, peer pressure etc and you are fit into A 'class' and 'function'/role'

The only hope children have are sufficiently 'enlightened' parents to guide them through all of this. A child with healthy self-esteem will not succumb significantly to peer pressure, and will go through school without turning into an automaton, but into a creative and emotionally mature individual. Some of these children become the enlightened teachers of tomorrow. They will always be few.

 

[Nomada]

Yes...

I have a question though. Where is destiny forged? ...When you speak of information readily available an usable for mutation you're recurring to a channel the matrix offers that's specific of a socio-historical block. You're relating the form of the matrix with the possibility of enlightening but ultimately conditioning it to the word Destiny. This is why I ask. Does this "destiny" refer to the rest of the matrix forms and channels that are also, or not, dependent of the Social and the History? What does it refer to?
How ultimately determining is the matrix to the human as a social block in terms of enlightening?

Also, I believe enlightening is not a monolithic state that characterized by a set of conditions. We can also speak of it as liberation. Both terms I believe, are polisemic, they contain a indeterminately big spectrum of worlds. Just proposing signification...

 

[magickmumu]

What do you mean with the matrix. :?:

 

[Nomada]

I mean your environment, socio-cultural, political, economical with all of it's dimensions. With matrix I mean the whole of the Historical structure.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

I have a question though. Where is destiny forged?

Why should it be forged anywhere? Destiny is just the way things are bound to evolve. And the way things evolve are predetermined by what was already there and the "laws" of creation (the Golden Mean, the platonic solids, harmonics etc.) acting upon all of that.

...When you speak of information readily available an usable for mutation you're recurring to a channel the matrix offers that's specific of a socio-historical block.

Yes, but it doesn't seem it's ever a block. Knowledge has been passed on and expanded upon throughout the ages, swelling up the libraries again and again (some of them going up in flames unfortunately...). But it's true the information readily available is specific to the culture in question.

You're relating the form of the matrix with the possibility of enlightening but ultimately conditioning it to the word Destiny.

Yes, those who make full use of the available information to enlighten themselves and others, were ultimately destined to do so, because that's their nature, that's the nature (and purpose) of that particular wave of creation.

This is why I ask. Does this "destiny" refer to the rest of the matrix forms and channels that are also, or not, dependent of the Social and the History?

I'd say so. "You didn't come into this world, you came out of it."

What does it refer to? How ultimately determining is the matrix to the human as a social block in terms of enlightening?

I don't know. In the discussion so far, we spoke about intellectual enlightenment, we didn't discuss the nature of psychotherapeutic or mystical experiences, including psychedelic trips. But since the outcome of such experiences is dependent on set and setting (in the broadest sense of the term), even such revelations cannot be divorced from the information that's available about these matters.

Also, I believe enlightening is not a monolithic state that characterized by a set of conditions.

I also don't think there is such a thing as absolute enlightenment. But it's possible to describe certain ways of thinking, feeling, perceiving, acting and communicating as 'enlightened'.

We can also speak of it as liberation. Both terms I believe, are polisemic, they contain a indeterminately big spectrum of worlds. Just proposing signification...

Yes, liberation, emancipation, mukti or moksha. You become liberated from the shackles of illusion, your inner world expands, without limit, and you become free.

 

[Nomada]

Yes, but it doesn't seem it's ever a block. Knowledge has been passed on and expanded upon throughout the ages, swelling up the libraries again and again (some of them going up in flames unfortunately...). But it's true the information readily available is specific to the culture in question.

True. I was using block as the grounds specified within a determined time and space, ie culture.

And the way things evolve are predetermined by what was already there and the "laws" of creation (the Golden Mean, the platonic solids, harmonics etc.) acting upon all of that.

Haven't heard any of those before... How do they operate? The operation of laws doesn't necessarily bring about linear correlations. For example, there are 94 or so elements, and they combine by sets of rules, if I'm allowed. How many compounds can be produced?
Do you mean destinies comes directly from laws and then there is now choice or possibility beyond them? I don't understand.

I feel particularly interested in the platonic solids. Do you have references?

Yes, those who make full use of the available information to enlighten themselves and others, were ultimately destined to do so, because that's their nature, that's the nature (and purpose) of that particular wave of creation.

I'll repeat the process. To what extend to we produce, in the sociality and in the matrix, our own nature? To what extend is the nature of "those ones" determined by their developing surroundings?
I don't think we have a definite nature and if we do it operates by complexification, much like your two hands and feet-we all have 4 of them but can be used in virtually infinite ways. I think we are culturally and materially produced on top of biological platform that although defines limits, those limits operate in complex multidimensional ways.

what's a wave of creation? does nature imply purpose?

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Haven't heard any of those before... How do they operate?

Sacred geometry and hyperdimensional physics are difficult to summarize, and unfortunately I can't link to any webpage that is devoid of new age jibberish. I guess David Wilcock's Divine Comsos would be a good place to start though.

It's the third book (with the best start) of his Convergence series:

Shift of the Ages
The Science of Oneness
Divine Cosmos

I feel particularly interested in the platonic solids. Do you have references?

If you want to see lots of pictures, nose around here: http://www.goldenmean.info/
EDIT: Watch this video, it's actually quite good: The purpose of DNA.

Do you mean destinies comes directly from laws and then there is now choice or possibility beyond them?

"Law" is actually a tricky word here. Again, I simply mean the way energy flows, which is always governed by certain laws of nature, such as gravity or the push and pull of air pressure, intellectual concepts, physical attraction etc. Nothing escapes the strongest natural force active in a certain time and space.

So, yes, our destinies come directly from the laws of nature, on all levels. Without those laws, our feet wouldn't stick to the surface of this planet, there wouldn't be blood pumping through our bodies, there would be no plants to nourish us, indeed life as we know it wouldn't be possible. The universe wanted it like this, indeed, there was only one way for the universe to be, and that is how it is right now, with you conditioned to be you and me conditioned to be me for a couple of years. If there ever was a Big Bang, your current life was a natural consequence of all the events that would follow as a result of that bang. In other words, your life was implied from the very beginning of creation. You were meant to be, just like I was meant to be and even tyrants and criminals were meant to be. So why bother going beyond anything? Why bother trying to transcend your fate, or the inevitable unfoldment of events in time? You are fate. You are time.

I'll repeat the process. To what extend to we produce, in the sociality and in the matrix, our own nature?

You don't produce your own nature, you are your own nature, at any given point in time. From that nature certain fruits arise.

To what extend is the nature of "those ones" determined by their developing surroundings?

They come into the world with the full potential of their mission, but the way they develop is determined by their surroundings. The two go together, there's no causal connection. From a psychological or pedagogical point of view one might say there is a causal connection, but the astrological perspective turns that picture upside down because the type of parents and schooling one will receive is already visible when one is born. It's better to not dwell too much on causal relationships.

I don't think we have a definite nature

Part of us is subject to change, other parts are not. You can change and add certain software, but you can't replace the operating system. Crude example, but it's a useful metaphor.

I think we are culturally and materially produced on top of biological platform that although defines limits, those limits operate in complex multidimensional ways.

True, but those complex multidimensional ways are still occuring in mathematically predictable ways.

what's a wave of creation?

Like a wave in the ocean. It's visible for a short while and then it disappears again.

does nature imply purpose?

I'm not sure. Purpose for what or whom? So far I've only come to terms with the fact that nature is predictable. I don't think one can logically deduce purpose from that. But again, I'm not sure.

 

[magickmumu]

I mean your environment, socio-cultural, political, economical with all of it's dimensions. With matrix I mean the whole of the Historical structure.

Is nature a part of this matrix?
Or has it only to do with the social cultural and the economical?

If nature is part of it, is this matrix the same as the world (or universe).
Is it something different. :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

The way I used the word matrix, nature is included. Ice ages or natural disasters force everyone into the survival mode, rather than a contemplative mindset. Living in a rainforest makes one think and behave differently than living in a desert or on an small island.

 

[magickmumu]

So if I understand it correctly. This environment is made up of elements, and the way these elements interact is what you call the Matrix.
:?:

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

The matrix is that which we are embedded in: a family structure, a society, a culture, the environment, the planet, the solar system, the human body, everything.

Some common meanings of matrix:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/matrix

matrix (plural matrices)

1. (obsolete) The womb. The concept of an enclosure is common to many of the other uses of matrix.
2. (biology) The material or tissue in which more specialized structures are embedded.
3. (biology) An extracellular matrix, the material or tissue between the cells of animals or plants.
4. (biology) Part of the mitochondrion.
5. (biology) The medium in which bacteria are cultured.
6. (mathematics) A rectangular arrangement of numbers or terms having various uses such as transforming coordinates in geometry, solving systems of linear equations in linear algebra and representing graphs in graph theory.
7. (computing) A two-dimensional array.
8. A table of data.
9. (geology) A geological matrix, the outer material of a rock consisting of larger grains embedded in a material consisting of smaller ones.
10. (archaeology) The sediment surrounding and including the artifacts, features, and other materials at a site.
11. (analytical chemistry) The environment from which a given sample is taken.

 

[Forkbender]

I think 99% of this so-called matrix is in our own mind.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

The mind is a reflection of the matrix.

 

[Forkbender]

In my experience it is the other way around.

 

[magickmumu]

I think 99% of this so-called matrix is in our own mind.

this so called matrix is just a concept. So it belongs to the human mind.
But when my friend hits me on my head with a stick, it hurts.

 

[magickmumu]

In my experience it is the other way around.

the same here. but i could be wrong maybe it's both :?:

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

By the way, we're not talking about The Matrix here (the science fiction story), where the environment is a sinister trap.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

the same here. but i could be wrong maybe it's both :?:

Yes, the mind is embedded in the matrix; it neither creates the matrix nor is it created by it. We've got to be careful with what we mean with the word 'mind' however.

 

[magickmumu]

I understand CM. The term is causing a lot of confusion over here.
That's why i asked.