Why we trip-What is a Bad trip-How to avoid them.In theory..

[Richy]

Hello.Been looking for something like this for ages.I've been trying to register for The Psychonautical society,but I'm having trouble getting an account-can anyone help?

Anyway,I might have something which might help-in my experience is essential,for tripping and exploring the mind,and to know what is going on,why we trip.This is a question that all psychenauts should ask themselves sooner or later.

Right,not sure where to start,so I'll just state a few "laws" first.

"The Law of Opposites."This is a psychological law as much as a physical one("what goes up must come down" is a simple explanation of the physical law of opposites.)

"The law of Relativity",in psychological terms means comparing things,eg.I am happy,but I could be happier,compared with yesterday.This also includes "The Law of Cause and Effect",one thing causes another,except....

"The Law of Absolutes",where comparing things isn't done,something is what it is,and there is no cause for something,eg.Me being happy,relatively-is caused by something,absolute-is just the way I feel,the way I am.

Right,everything has its opposite,good and bad experiences,pleasure and pain respectively-which incidentally are the opposite of each other,and symbolic of the opposites.For instance,money is good,it is symbolic for freedom.But what not many people are aware of is its opposite-that money can be TOO good,and we can become a slave to it.People blame other things for their trouble,not monet-they are unconscious that it is being enslaved by money that is the cause of their problem.Something unpleasant like hard physical work also has its opposite,that it helps us earn money,but more importantly,psychological attributes like character,and independance...psychological independance.And this is what is important,the psychological attributes.All the physical things are just symbols.

Right,when tripping,and say,we are hallucinating snakes,we could either enjoy or fear the hallucinations.That's because,when we fear the hallucinations,we don't like snakes,or what they symbolise.Why don't we like them?Because we are only aware of the NEGATIVE opposite of the meaning of the snake.The POSITIVE meaning is unconscious.If we manage to become conscious of the unconscious positive,then we bring positive and negative together and they neutralise.Then,the meaning of the snake changes,and we no longer fear it,we have become conscious of ourselves.

But becoming conscious of the opposite needs exactly the characteristic that is unconscious,in the first place.So,if it is unconscious,then how can we become conscious of it?By realising that the snake is SYMBOLIC of bothe the conscious negative meaning(that causes the fear)and the unconscious positive,by realising that the snake is symbolic for the TRIPPER that is fearing it.By realising,"I am like the snake...low down,sneaky..DISHONEST",a paradox is taking place,the tripper is being HONEST ABOUT HIS DISHONESTY,a contradiction,a consciuous meeting of the opposite,that is,the tripper is bringing together consciously the unconscious contents that is coulped with his unconscious honesty,and making him aware of his dishonesty,that is,albeit seen by others,is unconscious to himself,and is projected in the symbolic form of a SCARY snake.So,the unconscious comes to the tripper,not the other way around,which explains why when having a bad trip it gets worse when we try to do something about it,because even though we don't know it,that is what we are doing.

The above can be used in everyday life too,not just when tripping.It's called,"Leading the Symbolic Life."

Heroin is good,TOO good.And that is also its problem,and the nature of addiction.THAT is the Law of opposites,with the opposites combining into one thing,both the poles becoming conscious as one.When tripping,the poles become clearer,and applying some knowledge,both become conscious and can then be changed into something positive.This is very handy....essential when tripping,especially when having a bad one,and it makes good trips better.Geddit'?

(Aquestion.Ok,so,above,we have said that the snake is scary,and that is symbolic for an unconscious part of us.But,WHY is it symbolic for that part of us?Hmmm...the answer must be deeper in the unconscious somewhere.....

 

[tryptonaut]

So,the unconscious comes to the tripper,not the other way around,which explains why when having a bad trip it gets worse when we try to do something about it,because even though we don't know it,that is what we are doing.

This is not true for me (anymore). When a trip is going a bad direction (self-accusations, paranoia... whatever) I found out sometimes the best way for me is to fight it. Don't get me wrong, I don't fight the trip, because that would be exactly wrong - I fight the bad influences that are shown to me by the trip. It's the shamanistic concept of going on a trip to see what hurts us, and when you see it, start to fight it. Call it mumbo-jumbo if you like, but it works (and I am in no way a shaman, only starting to believe more and more in the spiritual side of things...)

mmmmm.... pastis

 

[Brewmaster]

I've had many difficult experiences back when I used to eat shrooms and L just for a good time (everyday) and the one thing that always calmed me down was drumming. I'm no drummer nor do I posess any rhythm, but just the simple act of trying to keep pace or a beat would totally take away all bad thoughts and feelings. I probably irritated alot of people this way but concentrating on an activity that involves physical and mental alertness stops your brain from receiving 200 thoughts per second.

When on aya though, if a trip is going bad, it's for a reason and you just have to ride it out and wait to see what the lesson is in the end.

Screaming helps a little

 

[HeartCore]

Reading your interesting post, I think you dont have a lot of deep psychedelic experience yourself but I could be wrong

In my opinion, bad trips can be two things:

1) irresponsible use of substance

Some youngster (or oldie!) pays no attention to set/setting and is confronted with sober family which he/she cannot deal with. Panic sets in, parents call emertgency, here you go, bad trip.

2) Confrontation of ourselves

Where you confront your fears of failures or general misery. Usually its not about not understanding what we see that makes it a 'bad' trip but our unwillingness to accept it. The phrase 'God give me the power to accept the things that I have no power over', is very trippy in this respect.

PS Money isnt freedom but power.

Cheers
HC

Edit: How to avoid them? Why would you want to avoid something that is able to help you see how to change your life around the way YOU want it?

You see, bad trips are only considered bad trips by people who dont understand them. Bad trips usually have the best lessons for us. I'm not talking about a bad trip evoked by poor choice of set by the way, thats just plain stupidness and has nothing to do with the substance or the trip.

 

[Kwarkfanaat]

Very well spoken!

I experienced 'option 1' once; I was with a friend on Columbian shrooms we both did 30 grams, but I only did philosopher stones before. Next to that, we made tea out of it, but we thought it wouldn't work out because the substance started to cook.

We started walking to a park (where we've never been before!) and after one hour it appeared we were very wrong.. and the trip appeared to be very strong. I didn't have a really hard time dealing with it, but my friend did and he started panicing. Wanting to call for help and that sort of thing. I also got into that bad tripping a bit because of that.

After about 3 hours (seemed like a week) we found some guy who wanted to walk to our home with us and we had a really good remaining trip.

----------------

So what did I lean?
- ALWAYS be prepared for your trip.
- Remain in a familliar environment that comforts you.
- Start with low doses when trying a longlasting drug like shrooms.

But most of all:
- Enjoy!
- Try to see your trip as a lesson of God about life, and about you.

Cheers!

 

[Richy]

Heartcore,by fighting,that is exactly what you are doing,albeit maybe unconsciously,that is,you are not aware that you ARE actually making conscious the symbols needed for you to transform.

Which is what you are also doing Brewmaster.By drumming,you are transforming yourself by drumming,which for YOU,PERSONALLY is the symbol that has the power to transform within you.

But sometimes,these things might not work,the unconscious needs to be expressed symbolically in a different way in order to be understood and "neutralised" or assimilated,and sometimes it isn't so obvious,and that is where the symbols and understanding them can be useful.Fear can bring out the best of us...strength,which is expressed symbolically.I suppose that that is what you are doing Heartcore.

Heartcore,I don't know if I have the authority to say I am an authority(Who has,tho?What is "experienced/not a lot of experience"?I think this can be subjective,but I do know objectively or empirically that I have had enough trips to be,what I call,experienced.But that is where our definitions of "experienced" differ,I suppose.I haven' been to college-or tried salvia,if that's what you mean),but I have had -plenty of,experience with psychedelics.Wether that makes me experiencED,I don't know.But,I have come up with these ideas thru years of thinking,trial and error,and applying the ideas.The main thing is,I had a full satori experience about 17 years ago,and I know what the-ultimate,goal,of tripping,and life perhaps,so I know what I am aiming for,and have a good idea of what is needed to achieve it.Just having the experience revealed the nature of the experience and what is needed to acieve it,you see.(By the way,these ideas are the same as Jung's ideas.I say,the SAME,because I came to these conclusions on my own before I had heard of Jung,i.e.the idea of projection(as applied to the hallucinations),where they came from(i.e.projected from ME...but unaware to me...implying-Jung's,UNCONSCIOUS),and changing the "value",i.e.good/bad,awesome/scary hallucinations from good to bad(or,as Jung put it,ASSIMILATING the contents of the unconscious),and their ultimate source of the hallucinations,which seem to take on a mythical character when tripping stron enough,eg.dragons,snakes,creatures,etc.),which correllate to Jung's archetypes.)

I am only PROPOSING these ideas as a hypothesis-that SEEMS to work...for ME.I am not suggesting anything else.Tell you what-Try this hypothesis with your dreams,see if you can interpret them.Hallicnations are,in psychological terms, in fact the "effect" of the Transcendant Function,of the Transcendant Function in action.It is a paradoxical state of mind,and occurs when,for example,a liar admits-HONESTLY,that he is a liar,a contradicion,both honest and dishonest.This means that the person-lying,becomes conscious of his-prviously,unconscious,attitude of lying....conscious,or becoming conscious,of the unconscious-a paradox.Hallucinations are the same.We are "conscious of the unconscious"(for lack of a better way of putting it),and the unconscious is conscious in symbol form,that is,hallucinations.When tripping,a liar might see scary hallucnations symbolising his iner unconscious attitude,and until he admits it,it will continue being projected outwards-as hallucinations,causing a vicious circle.This is seen symbolically as "one lie begets another",and is seen "mythologically" as the story of Pinocchio,and as a result of his attitude,the liar could have hallucinations with MOTIFS from the Pinocchio story,growing nose,a cricket(Jiminy),etc,and until the liar realises that the trip/hallucinations are BECAUSE OF HIM,they will carry on so,UNTIL he realises that it is IN HIM that the thing or virtue needed to transform,first,HIMSELF,then the hallucinations,and then the Transcendant function,"I am a liar,honestly",will have its transforming effect.

And as for,"Why would you want to change a bad trip,that is how you learn about yourself?"Well,that is true,but what is the point of only knowing about things,bad or negative things,about yourself,without then learning how to deal with them and then TRANSFORM YOURSELF?("ALCHEMICALLY")If the opportunity to transfrom yourself for the better arises then why not take it?The bad things that can happen EXTERNALLY as hallucinations REFLECT what is going on INTERNALLY,and instead of just learning that I have weaknesses,why not become conscious-symbollically,as hallucinations,of my INNER VIRTUES,which are then projected and change the negative value of a frightening hallucination into a positive value.Bad trips are only bad because I GIVE them that power,which comes FROM ME,but which also inpire or instigate me into doing something about it....temporarily at first,but then permanently.

Like I said,this is only a hypothesis,which I think,works.But,the point is not MY idea of transforming consciousness,but the idea of transforming consciousness itself,as a subject.Because,that is the greatest power and use for psychedelics,in my humble opinion.AND,maybe,just maybe,it will unlock doors,and might lead you to have a full satori/spiritual experience.(I think of this hypothesis as "buddhism/hinduism" for westerners.It is a sort of guided meditation.Instead of just blindly going into the darkness,the symbols give us a "direction".)

Maybe if you look up Jung's method-and explanation of the theory of,ACTIVE IMAGINATION,yo might be more convinced.I urge you to at least look it up if you are a serious psychenaut.What harm can that do?

 

[tryptonaut]

I'll have to say fighting bad influences as I said before doesn't always work. I had a dmt trip last thursday (syrian rue and mimosa) and when it got overwhelming all I could do was surrender to the trip. I was too weak and the trip too intense. In that case you can only be humble and accept everything, knowing that it's not going to last forever. With that in mind I was able to feel good throughout the trip and not panic.

 

[HeartCore]

Heartcore,by fighting,that is exactly what you are doing,albeit maybe unconsciously,that is,you are not aware that you ARE actually making conscious the symbols needed for you to transform.

you assume that you are more aware of my fear than I am myself. Thats both bold and arrogant based on what you know about me.

But sometimes,these things might not work,the unconscious needs to be expressed symbolically in a different way in order to be understood and "neutralised" or assimilated,and sometimes it isn't so obvious,and that is where the symbols and understanding them can be useful.Fear can bring out the best of us...strength,which is expressed symbolically.I suppose that that is what you are doing Heartcore.

Dont suppose please because you obviously havent a clue about my trips. And thats completely normal.

Heartcore,I don't know if I have the authority to say I am an authority(Who has,tho?What is "experienced/not a lot of experience"?I think this can be subjective,but I do know objectively or empirically that I have had enough trips to be,what I call,experienced.But that is where our definitions of "experienced" differ,I suppose.I haven' been to college-or tried salvia,if that's what you mean),but I have had -plenty of,experience with psychedelics.Wether that makes me experiencED,I don't know.But,I have come up with these ideas thru years of thinking,trial and error,and applying the ideas.The main thing is,I had a full satori experience about 17 years ago,and I know what the-ultimate,goal,of tripping,and life perhaps,so I know what I am aiming for,and have a good idea of what is needed to achieve it.Just having the experience revealed the nature of the experience and what is needed to acieve it,you see.(By the way,these ideas are the same as Jung's ideas.I say,the SAME,because I came to these conclusions on my own before I had heard of Jung,i.e.the idea of projection(as applied to the hallucinations),where they came from(i.e.projected from ME...but unaware to me...implying-Jung's,UNCONSCIOUS),and changing the "value",i.e.good/bad,awesome/scary hallucinations from good to bad(or,as Jung put it,ASSIMILATING the contents of the unconscious),and their ultimate source of the hallucinations,which seem to take on a mythical character when tripping stron enough,eg.dragons,snakes,creatures,etc.),which correllate to Jung's archetypes.)

Its funny that you keep mentioning Jung. While Jung wrote a lot of very exciting and new stuff, he didnt really heal a lot of people. What I mean is that, especially with the plant teachers, if you take a sufficient dose, you dont need Jung, symbols or whatever. In that space you are not talking about hallucinations and closes eye visuals but literally entering another dimension which can feel as real, as normal. My experience with plant teachers is, that you need to leave your analytical mind behind. My one and only Ayahuasca journey to date, was entirely about this because guess what, I was ALWAYS TRYING to analyse what was going on in the trip. Aya told me, in a humorous way, that this was the wrong way of approaching.

Once integrating your experience, after the trip, it can be worthwhile to think about certain parts and maybe try to understand certain images you dont understand at that time. But not during the trip, if you can do it during the trip, you just didnt do enough

I am only PROPOSING these ideas as a hypothesis-that SEEMS to work...for ME.I am not suggesting anything else.Tell you what-Try this hypothesis with your dreams,see if you can interpret them.Hallicnations are,in psychological terms, in fact the "effect" of the Transcendant Function,of the Transcendant Function in action.It is a paradoxical state of mind,and occurs when,for example,a liar admits-HONESTLY,that he is a liar,a contradicion,both honest and dishonest.This means that the person-lying,becomes conscious of his-prviously,unconscious,attitude of lying....conscious,or becoming conscious,of the unconscious-a paradox.Hallucinations are the same.We are "conscious of the unconscious"(for lack of a better way of putting it),and the unconscious is conscious in symbol form,that is,hallucinations.When tripping,a liar might see scary hallucnations symbolising his iner unconscious attitude,and until he admits it,it will continue being projected outwards-as hallucinations,causing a vicious circle.This is seen symbolically as "one lie begets another",and is seen "mythologically" as the story of Pinocchio,and as a result of his attitude,the liar could have hallucinations with MOTIFS from the Pinocchio story,growing nose,a cricket(Jiminy),etc,and until the liar realises that the trip/hallucinations are BECAUSE OF HIM,they will carry on so,UNTIL he realises that it is IN HIM that the thing or virtue needed to transform,first,HIMSELF,then the hallucinations,and then the Transcendant function,"I am a liar,honestly",will have its transforming effect.

Sure but on a good dose of a good entheogen, this goes smoothly, naturally. Maybe someone needs reassurance from a sitter/shaman (just let go, you will be allright). If you trip because you want to learn something, bad trips are welcome and a part of the process. Bad trips are the best lessons.

And as for,"Why would you want to change a bad trip,that is how you learn about yourself?"Well,that is true,but what is the point of only knowing about things,bad or negative things,about yourself,without then learning how to deal with them and then TRANSFORM YOURSELF?("ALCHEMICALLY")If the opportunity to transfrom yourself for the better arises then why not take it?The bad things that can happen EXTERNALLY as hallucinations REFLECT what is going on INTERNALLY,and instead of just learning that I have weaknesses,why not become conscious-symbollically,as hallucinations,of my INNER VIRTUES,which are then projected and change the negative value of a frightening hallucination into a positive value.Bad trips are only bad because I GIVE them that power,which comes FROM ME,but which also inpire or instigate me into doing something about it....temporarily at first,but then permanently.

You are explaining what a trip does, how wonderful it heals people but you are trying to make it your own invention, which it is not

Like I said,this is only a hypothesis,which I think,works.But,the point is not MY idea of transforming consciousness,but the idea of transforming consciousness itself,as a subject.Because,that is the greatest power and use for psychedelics,in my humble opinion.AND,maybe,just maybe,it will unlock doors,and might lead you to have a full satori/spiritual experience.(I think of this hypothesis as "buddhism/hinduism" for westerners.It is a sort of guided meditation.Instead of just blindly going into the darkness,the symbols give us a "direction".)

I prefer the Mazatec way, go into the dark, take the medicing (enough!) and let the allies take you whereever they want to take you and let them show you, whatever they want to show you. Guided meditation while tripping (if thats what you mean), is no way as effective as just tripping. Thats a fact btw, our unconsciousness knows much more than our consciousness and much much more than the consciousness of the person standing next to us guiding us.

Maybe if you look up Jung's method-and explanation of the theory of,ACTIVE IMAGINATION,yo might be more convinced.I urge you to at least look it up if you are a serious psychenaut.What harm can that do?

So if I dont read that book, I'm not a serious psychonaut. I dont read it then I guess


HC

 

[Richy]

I think you've misunderstood me,Heartcore.I'm just saying what YOU did was your PERSONAL wasy of dealing with things....symbolically.Like Tryptonaut,fighting doesn't always work,sometimes we have to surrender,and that "direction" is concealed within the symbols or hallucinations.Someone said that they thought that I might not be an experienced tripper-so what?What is an experienced tripper anyway.That is only what I am telling you,my experiences.We all understand things-and each other differently.Personally,I hate all that arty-farty new age bullshit.But that's just me.

And you seem to have misunderstood me.Guided meditation means guided by the symbols,but not turning the symbols into a solid thing or meaning,because that would disrupt the flow of the trip....guided by the symbols means GUIDED BY THE UNCONSCIOUS,which like you said,knows the way much better than our conscious minds.

Sigh!Well,it seems to work for me,and I thought that it was a good idea.....ONLY "rediscovered" by me.(Try it with your dreams,it won't cost you nothing.)

And I am only suggesting that you read AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE,suggested by other fellow trippers.(or are we?sadly,it seems not.It would be nice if we could agree to to disagree)It is arrogant to write off other people's suggestions.

I only mention Jung because my own ideas coincided with his,and yes,you are right,these ideas are not my own inventions,I merely "rediscovered" them,and when i did "discover"them,they had an ancient,timeless feel to them,which I then knew that I was somewhere in the right direction.BTW,all these ideas came to me when tripping BEFORE i had heard anything to do with mediating,hippies,new age,occult,oobe's,etctectec,and they just felt right to me.It was all a totally organic process for me-I was only 18/19 at the time and innocent enough not to be arrogant.

Why the hostility,anyway?Can't we agree to disagree?Your last comment says not.Chill out!!(Please.)Maybe we've misunderstood each other,eh?Shall I go out and come back in again?

 

[HeartCore]

Its just that you try to tell us that fighting is better than giving in. This is opposed to common knowledge. Surrender is the way to go.

If this works differently for you, than couldnt it be possible that you are experiencing trips different than people do usual and that therefore, your method works for you?

Really, fighting a trip is really not the way to go and when you say here it is, you are potentially influencing peoples trips.

Guided meditation is a practice well defined, if you come up with some technique that you call guided meditation but in reality isnt, you are adding to the confusion.

Why the hostility,anyway?Can't we agree to disagree?Your last comment says not.Chill out!!(Please.)Maybe we've misunderstood each other,eh?Shall I go out and come back in again?

Hostility? With a smile if you look again

Please dont take this the wrong way but people have been tripping for over half a decade in the west and working models to navigate a trip, have been developed. What you suggest is, that these models are wrong. Or maybe I didnt understand you correctly.

Surrender is the way to go, fighting is one sure way to get a bad trip. That this doesnt work for you, says more about you than about a trip. No offense by the way and I hope you dont take it as that.

I can give many personal examples of how fighting a certain aspect didnt work but once I surrendered, I entered Nirvana, bliss or whatever you may call it.

 

[Richy]

Thanks,Heartcore.I don't know how long people have been working on models,but I've been working this one out for nearly twenty years.

Hmmm...how can I explain?One's man's fighting is another man's surrendering,we all have our own way of doing things,but one's mans way of surrendering,for example,may be to surrender to his better self and do some hard physical work to earn for instance,but for someone else,it may be better for them to fight their urge to just sit and be lazy,because they know that to earn they have to work.The goal to earn is the same,they both work,but one is fighting,the other is surrendering.

And this is what I mean by the symbols have personal meaning.One symbol might urge a person to fight or avoid something,because that would have a personal detrimaental effect on them,thus avoiding pain and experiencing pleasure-the goal,while to someone else,they have to surrender to the same thing,"go thru" the pain in oredr to come outside-"cleansed" or gaining strength from the pain,and going into pleasure,the goal.

Each symbol has a personal meaning which when understood,will guide us ALL to the same "meeting place",if you like.Do you see what I mean now?MY understanding of surrender might be YOUR understanding of fighting,but we both want the same thing.Remember,some people surrender as a way of fighting,take those people who purposely get arrested at protests for instance.Or,the ultimate example,Jesus,he fought BY surrendering.It is this union of opposites that the unconscious wants by giving us a conscious symbol for us to find out its opposite unconscious meaning,which is true surrendering.

I too once entered nirvana/void,by FIGHTING the urge to go one way in order to SURRENDER to the urge to go the other way.....and the TRUE way is neither of these,but thru the middle-a union of the opposites-maybe now you see what I mean.Think of the zen story of the man hanging from a branch over a cliff-he can't let go cos he'll die,and he can't hang on for evr,not "left" or "right",fight or surrender...whatever.The answer is in the symbol.(FIGHT THE URGE TO FIGHT IN ORDER TO SURRENDER.I have had very personal experience of this,because this was how I experienced the flip-side of nirvana(which was pure terror),by NOT fighting to surrender,thinking that just surrendering was enough-sometimes you have to fight to surrender.)

I beat taking heroin,not by fighting against the urge,but-fighting the urge to fight AND by surrendering to the better part of me that doesnt need heroin.Maybe I've told you too much about myself now,but hey,what the fuck.I WILL be an ex addict one day.

 

[HeartCore]

Thanks,Heartcore.I don't know how long people have been working on models,but I've been working this one out for nearly twenty years.

If you like I can hook you up with Tim Leary (among other) Psychedelic guide based on the Tibetan book of the dead. Its a PDF file

[quote:1g8gl6pe]Hmmm...how can I explain?One's man's fighting is another man's surrendering,we all have our own way of doing things,but one's mans way of surrendering,for example,may be to surrender to his better self and do some hard physical work to earn for instance,but for someone else,it may be better for them to fight their urge to just sit and be lazy,because they know that to earn they have to work.The goal to earn is the same,they both work,but one is fighting,the other is surrendering.

I agree completely but this is a way of saying and making the matter more confusing than needed.

What I mean is plain simple like this: You are confronted with who you really are in the trip. Something many people experience. If you fight this image of who you are, you will be in trouble because you cant fight who you are. If you accept and thus surrender to who you are, you can then proceed to the next level or whatever. Its almost a law I think. Become aware of something about yourself, accepting that this is really you, and then deciding how to deal with it. You could say that you are fighting for a more real selfimage by surrendering to the image that is presented to you in the experience. Somethign along those lines is what I mean

[quote:1g8gl6pe]And this is what I mean by the symbols have personal meaning.One symbol might urge a person to fight or avoid something,because that would have a personal detrimaental effect on them,thus avoiding pain and experiencing pleasure-the goal,while to someone else,they have to surrender to the same thing,"go thru" the pain in oredr to come outside-"cleansed" or gaining strength from the pain,and going into pleasure,the goal.

Are you talking about life in general here of specifically the psychedelic experience?

Each symbol has a personal meaning which when understood,will guide us ALL to the same "meeting place",if you like.Do you see what I mean now?MY understanding of surrender might be YOUR understanding of fighting,but we both want the same thing.Remember,some people surrender as a way of fighting,take those people who purposely get arrested at protests for instance.Or,the ultimate example,Jesus,he fought BY surrendering.It is this union of opposites that the unconscious wants by giving us a conscious symbol for us to find out its opposite unconscious meaning,which is true surrendering.

I've got two things to say about this:

1) I am completely convinced that Jesus as described in the bible, never existed. I'm willing to open a topic about this if you like to discuss it. But really, I've seen very convincing evidence that really makes believing the story of Christ as described in the bible, as preposterous as believing in Santa Clause (I dont mean this offensive and my kids believe in Santa Claus ).

2) Yes it can easily become a word game and I agree that we could be talking about the same thing. Knowing myself, I must confess that I sometimes just go into a discussion purely for the sake of argument. In my defense I can say that on many occasions when that happens, after a couple of heated back and forths where we discover we are really just synchronizing our own, personal internal dictionaries. Often, thats the point where I find it becomes a very interesting discussion

I too once entered nirvana/void,by FIGHTING the urge to go one way in order to SURRENDER to the urge to go the other way.....and the TRUE way is neither of these,but thru the middle-a union of the opposites-maybe now you see what I mean.(FIGHT THE URGE TO FIGHT IN ORDER TO SURRENDER.I have had very personal experience of this,because this was how I experienced the flip-side of nirvana(which was pure terror),by NOT fighting to surrender,thinking that just surrendering was enough-sometimes you have to fight to surrender.)

Yes I have now added the possibility to previous mentioned dictionary that sometimes, fighting can just mean the opposite

I beat taking heroin,not by fighting against the urge,but-fighting the urge to fight AND by surrendering to the better part of me that doesnt need heroin.Maybe I've told you too much about myself now,but hey,what the fuck.I WILL be an ex addict one day.

[/quote:1g8gl6pe][/quote:1g8gl6pe]

Love and peace from an ex-coke addict

 

[tryptonaut]

Dont suppose please because you obviously havent a clue about my trips. And thats completely normal.

... and that is completely true!

Sometimes I even think I don't have a clue about my own trips (like every other time one of them is hitting me strong...)

Something just struck me when I was reading this thread:
*philosohpical mode on* Are we psychonauts only looking for a way out of addiction, or are we easily addicted because we are the ones who will find the way out? *philosohpical mode off*
Maybe you need 1,5 litres of beer to find that funny, then the first assumption would be true...

 

[Richy]

That's a fucking good question Tryptonaut.Are we psychonauts trying a way to be "normal",or do we just do the same as everyone else-the "normal" people,if that's what they are,and be normal?Is is normal to ask,or not to ask?

 

[Richy]

Heartcore,I completely agree with you about being and confronting yourself when tripping(and everyday life),totally.I also know what and why I see or experience what I do on the way-It is because of ME,I guess.

And I do mean that the symbols apply when tripping,but also in everyday life.It's just that when on psychedelics,it as though I have been put under a magnifying glass,and I can see the things-unconscious things coming into consciousness,things about me,in the form of hallucinations.Normally,these things are experienced as emotions,feelings and perceptions,and when tripping,what I think of these things are magnified,or-like a film with frames,are speeded up to the point where my perception of an object,and the object go out of sync,and the discrepancy between the two are the hallucinations.In fact,for me anyway,it is as though my mind speeds up to a point of infinity and catches up with reality-which is not in staccatic like frames,and my mind and reality join and become one....and I actually stop hallucinating.(Ever had this experience?Where it feels like your thoughts of reality and reality are the same,and you feel psychic?Well,without psychedelics,the frames of thought are slower,but the "formula" still applies.)

And this is my final-and most important point,that it doesn't matter wether you believe in Jesus or not.It is the MYTH,or,the MEANING OF THE MYTH that is important.You don't have to believe in the idea of a saviour in order to understand what a saviour is,and the "story" of Jesus,regardlelss of wether you believe in it or not,HAS TO BE in your mind in order to understand it,and the myth or story,ie.the Gospels,of Jesus is just a way-the christian way,of describing what is...what is the meaning of A saviour...a MYTH.And this is Jung's theory-or for that matter,anyone's understanding,of archetypes.You don't have to believe in the Devil to know what he stands for.The Devil is just a symbol for that dark part of us....the SHADOW,that we all have to overcome.You don't have to believe in the Devil to believe in the reality of an hallucination of the Devil,do you?

(P.S.I know my analogy of fighting and surrendering was a bit complex,but sometimes I get a bit carried away,and I knew that you would understand it,anyway.)

Anyway,Thanks Heartcore,nice speaking to you.Get back to us.(Actually,Heartcore,I would like to hear about your nirvana experience.I don't know many people that have experienced it,so tell us,maybe on a new topic about ego-death/near-death/astral plane/nirvan/golden void(my favourite description of....)etcetcetc experiences.)

 

[HeartCore]

I'm at work so I keep it short but one question I have for you:

I know you have a lot experience with LSD and it seems your drug of choice.

My question is, do you have a lot of experience with full psilocybin doses?

Reason I ask is because I and many others, experience major differences between the two. Moderate doses of psilocybin are not really mindblowing, especially if you are used to high doses of lsd. However, a lot of the stuff you say about symbols, I think, works perfectly with LSD. LSD works indeed like a magnifying glass. However, on a full dose of psilocybin, there is the experience of the other, some other being or whatever you want to call it. Its very difficult to explain this experience by tjheory about subconsciious stuff etc.

The same thing happens with Aya and DMT btw

I'm really curious about your experiences with the different plant teachers and how far you have gone with that.

PS 3 grams of dried cubensis doesnt do it, 7-10 grams at least

 

[Brewmaster]

Heart, you really love your shrooms don't you? Always talking about eating 300 grams fresh and such nonsense. You're crazy and I respect that. Personally, I can eat 2 grams and be straight, I don't like full blown mushroom trips.

I never saw psilocybin or lsd or mdma as teachers. They were always just "good time" drugs that I would take at shows and festivals. DMT and mescaline are far more spiritual for me and much more valuable.

Heart, I know you've never walked with mescalito so when I chop down a few more pedros and peruvians in the spring I'm going to send you one.

 

[Richy]

Actually,Heartcore,mushies are my drug of choice.I only use the term LSD because it is quicker to type than mushrooms!In answer to your question,yes,I have had full doeses of mushrooms-enough for a "mythical/heroic" trip,and that is where I had most of my insights from.

And,as it goes,I have had more experience meditating with LSD for the simple reason that the first time I tried meditating was on acid,and,lo and behold,I had a full blown nirvana experience.I haven't achieved it since then,nearly but not fully,and when I meditate on mushies,it seems a bit "foggy",if you know what I mean.I think that I want to repeat the experience so much that I am trying too hard,and that is why I achieved it on my first attempt,because I knew NOTHING about it,and therefore,no expectations.The void doesn't seem as clear as on mushies as when on acid,IMHO.

Aya isn't available in my parts,or cubensis.I live in North Wales.Yes,I have had "proper" doses of mushrooms,anything between 100 to 500 fresh Liberty Caps,fresh that day,probably about 130 to 150 times/trips,mostly between the ages of 16 to 24.(About 20 to 30 trips a season for about 7 years,and a few trips since,and probably about 60 or 70 acid trips,usually when mushies were available.Actually,one time,we could olny get mushies,acid wasn't easily available.I only live in a small market town,but when ecstasy became popular in the 90's,acid sort of preceded it.)Anything less than 100 isn't what I call a proper trip,because the hallucinations aren't really "there",and anything over 300 is a waste,because they seem to plateau at about 300.People on the internet seem to think that I am lying about the dose I have taken,but that dose is almost part of growing up-a rite of passage,around where I live.You asked do I have experience with mushies?!Fuck!You'd love to meet me and my mate-we used to live for mushies when we were younger.

Like I said in another post though,you don't need 300 mushies either.I have had stronger trips/hallucinations with about 150 mushies and a bottle of amyl nitrate-Rush or Poppers.Some might say some bullshit like,"Oh,it goes against the whole mushroom..natural ethic.....maannn...."(I hate all that new age stuff.Just do it....for the fucking experience.),but if you want to know what a fucking mindblowing hallucination/feeling is like,then you have to try it.I've always preferred the 'lucies on mushies myself-they are more intense,for me anyway,and I like their mythical quality that acid doesn't have.To be honest with you,most of the acid that I've taken has been pretty unimpressive(I used to have to take 4 or 5 tabs at a time-party acid,I reckon),and I have only ever been blown away by the 'lucies on acid a few times/trips,but I did manage to get to the golden void on 3 tabs one time,so I can't really put acid down.But,when it comes to 'lucies,then mushies are the way to go.And I can't recommend mushies and Poppers enough-at least 100 liberty caps(I don't know anything about weights or grams,I just count them,and nearly always take them fresh,unless I am storing them for later on in the year),and wait until you are peaking,then blast away,and blast off!!The blood vessels dilate,and more blood=more psilocin/psilocybin goes to the brain than usual=stronger effect,a bit like a fuel injection or a turbo in a car.You MUST try it.It makes a 100 trip about..hmm...5 times stronger perhaps.Put it this way,without it-but when tripping,you feel straight in comparison-sort of like going up a level.From a level3 to a level 5,maybe?(if a hallucination trip can be a level 5,or is that only nirvana type trips?)Try it,just for the experience.

And Brewmaster,I like taking mushies for a good time time,but you can learn at the same time.And-in my experience,the stronger the trip,the more I enjoyed it,and,paradoxically,the clearer my head would be.I used to have much better and clearer insights when I had a decent dose.

 

[HeartCore]

back later..

 

[tryptonaut]

They were always just "good time" drugs that I would take at shows and festivals. DMT and mescaline are far more spiritual for me and much more valuable.

If shrooms are not really working for you then you have to try a high dose of shrooms with a good amount of syrian rue. I think you'll get into the spiritual mood with that