what's happened to Michael Hoffman from egodeath?

[BrainEater]

after all psychadelics appear to be poisons, and poisons are bad, just like drugs are mmmkay...??

 

[zezt]

well thee whole idea from the mental health movment about what 'psychosis' IS is confused, so calling psychedelics a psychomimmetic is double confused. So whats your point?

My point was just to make the connection between tripping and psychosis. In the psychiatric literature 'psychosis' means disconnection from reality, delusory beliefs and hallucinations. Ego death theory gives an ultra-clear definition of precisely what psychosis is 'loosened cognitive associations'

when you trip, you go psychotic to some extent but it is temporary, when you are schizophrenic the same thing happens but it is not temporary

"Is it schizophrenia or an LSD psychosis?

Warner and Taylor (1994) have suggested that reports of prolonged psychoses may actually be reports of the normal incidence of psychosis within the general population, and the use of LSD is co-incidental. This could be established if the psychoses following LSD use was somehow different from other psychoses arising from mental illnesses, such as Schizophrenia.

However the research is confounded by a poor definition of a 'drug induced psychosis' and the confusion caused by using Schizophrenics in control groups. Poole and Brabbins (1996) argue that psychiatry has no consistent definition of a 'drug-induced psychosis', and that the relationship between drug use and psychiatric symptoms is controversial. They write that the literature on this subject as a whole is marked by an inference of a causal relationship, which is not supported by the data upon which it is based. The studies are methodologically unsound, and do not explore drug use as it occurs in the 'real world'. They argue that this stems from the lack of personal experience of psychiatrists in the drug subculture. " http://www.maps.org/research/abrahart.html#chp2

Now this article though questioning the "poor definition" of a "drug induced psychosis" seems however to take as accepted the established psychiatric 'definition' 'real' Schizophrenia

For that we must look to Tim Kurz: The Construction of Schizophrenia as a “Mental Illness” by ...

Thus I dont think that Hoffman's definition 'loosened cognitive associations' is an apt definition really

I have said right from the beginning, I question computationalism, and I question the very paradigm we are in so will not just accept what its authorities tell me I must should or must believe.
Your position, to me, is too self-assured. You proclaim, for example, 'your mind IS a computer....why don't you get it?....schizophrenia and psychosis are mental illnesses = psychedelic experiences are of the same ilk though temporary?' and proceed with these assumptions which seem to make up a philosophy of life for you...

 

[maxfreakout]

"Is it schizophrenia or an LSD psychosis?

Warner and Taylor (1994) have suggested that reports of prolonged psychoses may actually be reports of the normal incidence of psychosis within the general population, and the use of LSD is co-incidental. This could be established if the psychoses following LSD use was somehow different from other psychoses arising from mental illnesses, such as Schizophrenia.

However the research is confounded by a poor definition of a 'drug induced psychosis' and the confusion caused by using Schizophrenics in control groups. Poole and Brabbins (1996) argue that psychiatry has no consistent definition of a 'drug-induced psychosis', and that the relationship between drug use and psychiatric symptoms is controversial. They write that the literature on this subject as a whole is marked by an inference of a causal relationship, which is not supported by the data upon which it is based. The studies are methodologically unsound, and do not explore drug use as it occurs in the 'real world'. They argue that this stems from the lack of personal experience of psychiatrists in the drug subculture. " http://www.maps.org/research/abrahart.html#chp2

Now this article though questioning the "poor definition" of a "drug induced psychosis" seems however to take as accepted the established psychiatric 'definition' 'real' Schizophrenia

For that we must look to Tim Kurz: The Construction of Schizophrenia as a “Mental Illness” by ...

None of this ^ has any connection at all with anything im saying

i am talking about a phenomenological characterisation of psychotic and psychedelic states of consciousness

Thus I dont think that Hoffman's definition 'loosened cognitive associations' is an apt definition really

your use of the word 'thus' doesnt make any sense because what you say here ^ doesnt follow from the random unrelated papers you posted

the expression 'loosened cognitive associations' captures the essence of the psychedelic and psychotic/schizophrenic state. The most immediate, superficial demonstration of loosened associations is spontaneous pattern formation/recognition, when you trip you see patterns all over the place, that results the fact that the association between appearance and reality is being loosened. When you trip you get this experience temporarily, schizophrenics are having this kind of experience for much of the time, uncontrollably, but the experience itself is essentially the same (although not completely identical)

I have said right from the beginning, I question computationalism

But that has no relevance to ego death theory, because as i already explained it doesnt in any sense hinge on computationalism being true

You proclaim, for example, 'your mind IS a computer

as i already explained, i make no such proclamation and neither does Hoffman. I do proclaim that the mind processes information, because it does, your mind is processing THIS information right now

schizophrenia and psychosis are mental illnesses

schizophrenia is a mental illness which consists of random, uncontrolled oscillation between the psychotic 'loosened' cognitive state, and the ordinary state. It is an 'illness' in the sense that it causes extreme suffering to the people who have it

psychedelic experiences are of the same ilk though temporary?'

yes exactly, loosened cognitive association binding

 

[BrainEater]

all i want to say, does this song say. :lol:

[youtube]4N3N1MlvVc4[/youtube]

 

[zezt]

"Is it schizophrenia or an LSD psychosis?

Warner and Taylor (1994) have suggested that reports of prolonged psychoses may actually be reports of the normal incidence of psychosis within the general population, and the use of LSD is co-incidental. This could be established if the psychoses following LSD use was somehow different from other psychoses arising from mental illnesses, such as Schizophrenia.

However the research is confounded by a poor definition of a 'drug induced psychosis' and the confusion caused by using Schizophrenics in control groups. Poole and Brabbins (1996) argue that psychiatry has no consistent definition of a 'drug-induced psychosis', and that the relationship between drug use and psychiatric symptoms is controversial. They write that the literature on this subject as a whole is marked by an inference of a causal relationship, which is not supported by the data upon which it is based. The studies are methodologically unsound, and do not explore drug use as it occurs in the 'real world'. They argue that this stems from the lack of personal experience of psychiatrists in the drug subculture. " http://www.maps.org/research/abrahart.html#chp2

Now this article though questioning the "poor definition" of a "drug induced psychosis" seems however to take as accepted the established psychiatric 'definition' 'real' Schizophrenia

For that we must look to Tim Kurz: The Construction of Schizophrenia as a “Mental Illness” by ...

None of this ^ has any connection at all with anything im saying

i am talking about a phenomenological characterisation of psychotic and psychedelic states of consciousness

Thus I dont think that Hoffman's definition 'loosened cognitive associations' is an apt definition really

your use of the word 'thus' doesnt make any sense because what you say here ^ doesnt follow from the random unrelated papers you posted

the expression 'loosened cognitive associations' captures the essence of the psychedelic and psychotic/schizophrenic state. The most immediate, superficial demonstration of loosened associations is spontaneous pattern formation/recognition, when you trip you see patterns all over the place, that results the fact that the association between appearance and reality is being loosened. When you trip you get this experience temporarily, schizophrenics are having this kind of experience for much of the time, uncontrollably, but the experience itself is essentially the same (although not completely identical)

I have said right from the beginning, I question computationalism

But that has no relevance to ego death theory, because as i already explained it doesnt in any sense hinge on computationalism being true

You proclaim, for example, 'your mind IS a computer

as i already explained, i make no such proclamation and neither does Hoffman. I do proclaim that the mind processes information, because it does, your mind is processing THIS information right now

schizophrenia and psychosis are mental illnesses

schizophrenia is a mental illness which consists of random, uncontrolled oscillation between the psychotic 'loosened' cognitive state, and the ordinary state. It is an 'illness' in the sense that it causes extreme suffering to the people who have it

psychedelic experiences are of the same ilk though temporary?'

yes exactly, loosened cognitive association binding

Maxfreakout, if you are going to quote me try and not make out I am saying something I didn't say. Ie., you have me quoted saying 'schizophrenia and psychosis are mental illnesses'- and the next slice you pick seems to make out I am saying what your saying...? so its confusing -I DON'T say that as well you know, and the quotes are out of context, so please try and respect me there

With those two quotes from Maps etc, I tried to show that there is no definate connection between so-called 'psychosis' and psychedelic experience. but you seem to they have nothing to do with what you said. Didn't you say that psychedelic experience was known as "psychomimetic"--as though that is a given?

and the last analytically sliced bit of what i said you have used to try and claim I am saying what your saying.....that is cheeky :butthead:

 

[maxfreakout]

Maxfreakout, if you are going to quote me try and not make out I am saying something I didn't say. Ie., you have me quoted saying 'schizophrenia and psychosis are mental illnesses'- and the next slice you pick seems to make out I am saying what your saying...? so its confusing -I DON'T say that as well you know, and the quotes are out of context, so please try and respect me there

I am always responding directly to what you are actually saying, it certainly isnt my intention to distort what you are saying i just want to understand exactly what you think so that i can respond to it accurately and meaningfully, so ignore the quotes and just focus on my responses to them...

With those two quotes from Maps etc, I tried to show that there is no definate connection between so-called 'psychosis' and psychedelic experience.

neither of the quotes you posted actually said anything even remotely like that though (dont you read the sources you quote before posting them? :?: that's like the third time you've done that on this thread) the first one was talking about psychotic episodes that occur after LSD trips (ie not during the trips themselves), the second one was talking about schizophrenia and didnt even mention drugs or tripping

the connection between entheogens and psychosis is very well established, - a trip is a temporary psychosis (of a special kind)

Didn't you say that psychedelic experience was known as "psychomimetic"--as though that is a given?

The psychedelic experience WAS known as 'psychotomimetic', that IS a given, and the REASON it was known by that name is because that is what the experience of tripping on entheogens actually IS, you take psychedelics and you experience a special kind of psychosis, for a limited period of time. It is very important to understand this if you want to understand ego death theory

the word 'psychedelic' (and later 'entheogenic') came to replace 'psychotomimetic' not because 'psychotomimetic' is wrong, but rather because 'psychedelic' is more accurate and a better description of exactly what happens during a trip, - consciousness itself becomes an object of perception. The word 'entheogenic' is even more accurate still, because it makes the connection to religion explicit

The evolution of these terms reflects the evolution of the modern western understanding of what these drugs are, but i find it very interesting that Hoffman ressurected the word 'psychotomimetic'

 

[zezt]

sorry you don't make sense to me maxfreakout. You don't seem to dig the quotes I gave you one saying "However the research is confounded by a poor definition of a 'drug induced psychosis'"--that seems clear to me...and "Poole and Brabbins (1996) argue that psychiatry has no consistent definition of a 'drug-induced psychosis', and that the relationship between drug use and psychiatric symptoms is controversial."

what dont you understand about these quotes. And then I put out the quote about even questioning the term 'schizophrenia' and 'psychosis'---for what DOES it mean?? You quote several terms from Hoffman, but what does it MEAN??

Can you define 'normal' for us?

 

[maxfreakout]

sorry you don't make sense to me maxfreakout. You don't seem to dig the quotes I gave you one saying "However the research is confounded by a poor definition of a 'drug induced psychosis'"--that seems clear to me...and "Poole and Brabbins (1996) argue that psychiatry has no consistent definition of a 'drug-induced psychosis', and that the relationship between drug use and psychiatric symptoms is controversial."

As i said in my last post, the term 'drug-induced psychosis' in that article you posted is not referring to tripping, it is referring to "prolonged psychoses", in other words, psychotic episodes which last beyond the duration of the trip itself. That is not what i am talking about, i am only talking about the trips themselves and their phenomenological connection to psychosis, not what happens after the trip. therefore that article has no connection to what i am saying

the reasoon they say that there is a 'poor definition' is because there is no way to distinguish between psychosis caused (ie "induced") by drug use, versus psychosis which is merely coincidental with drug use, ie there is no way to distinguish between causation versus mere correlation, but that is nothing to do with what i am saying because im only talking about the trips themselves, not what happens after they finish. they are NOT questioning the definition of 'psychosis' itself (Why do i have to explain to you something which you posted yourself?)

It is perfectly obvious that when you take drugs and trip, this is causation, not mere correlation, the drugs cause you to trip, the trip is induced by the drugs

what dont you understand about these quotes. And then I put out the quote about even questioning the term 'schizophrenia' and 'psychosis'---for what DOES it mean?? You quote several terms from Hoffman, but what does it MEAN??

I have already answered this but i will try again

'psychosis' is defined in the psychiatric literature as broadly 'disconnection from consensus reality', that definition is fine on a crude, basic level, but Hoffman gives a much more precise phenomenological definition with his idea of: 'loosened cognitive association binding'.

The sane, non-psychotic mind is characterised by very rigid sets of associations, the most obvious, superficial example of this is the association that the mind makes between appearance and reality, for example you see an appearance of a computer screen in front of your face, and you rigidly associate this appearance with the idea of a REAL computer screen, ie you think that the appearance is real, you think you are looking at a real computer screen, and a real external world full of real objects

in the psychedelic, and psychotic state, this association begins to loosen to some extent, that is exactly what is happening when you see crazy patterns everywhere during a trip, the world begins to look more like a cartoon than a 'real', 'solid' world, the illusion of solidity starts to break down when you trip or when you experience schizophrenic psychosis

'psychosis' refers to the state of loosened association binding, 'schizophrenia' refers to the condition where the person experiences an uncontrolled oscillation between the ordinary state and the psychotic state. Psychedelic drugs allow access to the psychotic state (roughly speaking), but instead of being uncontrolled as it is in schizophrenia, it is controllable, you take the drugs when you want to, and the experience of psychotic cognitive dissociation is only temporary

Can you define 'normal' for us?

The normal state of consciousness is defined by the rigidity of cognitive associations, in contrast to the psychotic state in which these associations start to split apart

 

[zezt]

"My point was just to make the connection between tripping and psychosis. In the psychiatric literature 'psychosis' means disconnection from reality, delusory beliefs and hallucinations. Ego death theory gives an ultra-clear definition of precisely what psychosis is 'loosened cognitive associations'

when you trip, you go psychotic to some extent but it is temporary, when you are schizophrenic the same thing happens but it is not temporary"

But I don't call tripping "disconnection from reality". 8) YOU do. From my experience it is diving into the meaning of reality. Yet your making a connection between tripping and psychosis

what IS reality? WHOSE reality?!

 

[maxfreakout]

But I don't call tripping "disconnection from reality". 8) YOU do.

to be absolutely specific, it is disconnection to CONSENSUS reality, intersubjective reality, shared reality. The psychedelic experience and schizophrenic psychosis are both PRIVATE experiences

It makes no difference what you 'call it', what really matters is what it actually IS, when you trip you lose the connection to intersubjective/consensus reality to some extent (although rarely do you lose it completely), for example on a strong DMT trip you enter into an alternative universe (and nobody else comes with you), similarly on a strong salvia trip you can lose all connection to your own beliefs and memories (total amnesia). Disconnection is a fundamental characteristic of both the schizophrenic patient's experience, and the psychonaut tripper's experience

From my experience it is diving into the meaning of reality. Yet your making a connection between tripping and psychosis

yes these ^ statements are both true, so the word 'yet' is inappropriate, it is a deeper level of reality, a deeper level of meaning (than what you experience in the ordinary state of consciousness). This is common to both entheogens and schizophrenia

what IS reality? WHOSE reality?!

In this specific context the word 'reality' refers to the ordinary state of consciousness, objectivity, the world of appearances, the world of other people and physical objects. When you trip you come closer to 'ultimate reality' which is pure subjectivity, the ego death peak experience is full immersion into ultimate reality, all connection to the physical world is lost

 

[Eldritch]

'psychosis' is defined in the psychiatric literature as broadly 'disconnection from consensus reality', that definition is fine on a crude, basic level, but Hoffman gives a much more precise phenomenological definition with his idea of: 'loosened cognitive association binding'.

I must say I really like that definition conceptually - 'loosened cognitive association binding' makes much more sense when contemplating schizophrenia.

I like a lot of MH's essays and discussions found within his site, though as yet still unsure about his theory. He suggests the more you are aware of perennial philosophy the greater understanding you will have of these altered states but isn't this really just giving you a greater range of imagination to put into these states? I still have my foot in the James Kent style of thinking where it's all a matter of what's inside your head already.

 

[zezt]

But I don't call tripping "disconnection from reality". 8) YOU do.

to be absolutely specific, it is disconnection to CONSENSUS reality, intersubjective reality, shared reality. The psychedelic experience and schizophrenic psychosis are both PRIVATE experiences

It makes no difference what you 'call it', what really matters is what it actually IS, when you trip you lose the connection to intersubjective/consensus reality to some extent (although rarely do you lose it completely), for example on a strong DMT trip you enter into an alternative universe (and nobody else comes with you), similarly on a strong salvia trip you can lose all connection to your own beliefs and memories (total amnesia). Disconnection is a fundamental characteristic of both the schizophrenic patient's experience, and the psychonaut tripper's experience

I have not had DMT or Salvia, but have had LSD and magic mushrooms, and I do not feel disconnected to consensual reality, but deeply seeing it in a deeper way, and also with nature. So I don't like the term 'disconnected'. Of course I am aware many people classed as 'mentally ill' do feel disconnected, and also many people NOT classed as mentally ill feel VERY disconnected from consensual reality and nature also.

what IS reality? WHOSE reality?!

In this specific context the word 'reality' refers to the ordinary state of consciousness, objectivity, the world of appearances, the world of other people and physical objects. When you trip you come closer to 'ultimate reality' which is pure subjectivity, the ego death peak experience is full immersion into ultimate reality, all connection to the physical world is lost

[/quote]

Well I wouldn't use those terms. I wouldn't separate the reality into 'reality' and 'utlimate reality' but see reality as a continuum--and dynamic, forever changing. And I don't believe in "pure subjectivity" nor pure objectivity Nor 'ultimate reality' versus 'physical reality' etc.. It is we who have been 'educated' to divide up reality dualistically, whereas reality actually is always dynamic polarity.

 

[maxfreakout]

I have not had DMT or Salvia, but have had LSD and magic mushrooms, and I do not feel disconnected to consensual reality, but deeply seeing it in a deeper way, and also with nature.

it isnt a point about one drug or another, all the entheogens do the same essential thing

The 'deeper way' in which you perceive reality when you are tripping is not shared by other people who are not tripping, therefore you are disconnected from the way other people perceive reality. In the ordinary state of consciousness you are immersed in intersubjectivity, when you trip you are temporarily raised above this ordinary way of seeing things.

The main point here is that a trip is a private experience, and the stronger the trip is, the more private it is because it is a deeper immersion into pure subjectivity

So I don't like the term 'disconnected'. Of course I am aware many people classed as 'mentally ill' do feel disconnected, and also many people NOT classed as mentally ill feel VERY disconnected from consensual reality and nature also.

yes exactly, and mentally ill people feel this way for the same basic reason that trippers do, but with mental illness the effect is more or less permanent, whereas with entheogens it is temporary, you return to the ordinary state when the trip ends

Well I wouldn't use those terms. I wouldn't separate the reality into 'reality' and 'utlimate reality' but see reality as a continuum--and dynamic, forever changing.

the separation is between tripping and not tripping, this is not really a continuum, rather it is 2 fundamentally different modes of cognitive processing, tight and loose associative binding

And I don't believe in "pure subjectivity" nor pure objectivity

it is a category error to say you 'dont believe' in subjectivity or objectivity, these are both concepts used to structure experience. A good example of pure subjectivity is the dream-state, it is something that only you can experience. Pure objectivity is the way the world is when noone is perceiving it (ie the tree falling in the forest)

 

[maxfreakout]

I like a lot of MH's essays and discussions found within his site, though as yet still unsure about his theory. He suggests the more you are aware of perennial philosophy the greater understanding you will have of these altered states but isn't this really just giving you a greater range of imagination to put into these states? I still have my foot in the James Kent style of thinking where it's all a matter of what's inside your head already.

I suppose it is the fact that these concepts are 'perennial' that gives them their universal validity, and the fact that they are (arguably) based primarily on the altered states in the first place. So it is giving you a greater range of imagination, but at the same time it is a kind of imagination that is specifically tailored to the structure of the altered states

So the debate between Kent and Hoffman about this seems to be a debate over whether or not the psychedelic state has a fundamental/universal structure or not, and whether or not that strucuture is successfully reflected by the perennial philosophical themes

 

[zezt]

'psychosis' is defined in the psychiatric literature as broadly 'disconnection from consensus reality', that definition is fine on a crude, basic level, but Hoffman gives a much more precise phenomenological definition with his idea of: 'loosened cognitive association binding'.

I must say I really like that definition conceptually - 'loosened cognitive association binding' makes much more sense when contemplating schizophrenia.

I like a lot of MH's essays and discussions found within his site, though as yet still unsure about his theory. He suggests the more you are aware of perennial philosophy the greater understanding you will have of these altered states but isn't this really just giving you a greater range of imagination to put into these states? I still have my foot in the James Kent style of thinking where it's all a matter of what's inside your head already.

The so-called "perennial philosophy"(philosophia perennis "eternal philosophy") has been critiqued by feminists. The 'Perennial philosophy', also known as the 'monomyth', 'the hero's journey' gets a good critique here: Chapter 3: The Feminist Critique of the Separated Self

 

[maxfreakout]

The so-called "perennial philosophy"(philosophia perennis "eternal philosophy") has been critiqued by feminists. The 'Perennial philosophy', also known as the 'monomyth', 'the hero's journey' gets a good critique here: Chapter 3: The Feminist Critique of the Separated Self

another random, irrelevant link!!!!

the hero's journey/monomyth and the perennial philosophy are not the same thing, they are loosely related but not in any sense which that article addresses. The issue Eldritch was raising is the applicability of the perennial philosophy to the psychedelic experience, this is a very important topic for ego death theory

the hero's journey is the universal structure of myth, the perennial philosophy is the timelessly recurrent philosophical themes

Perennial philosophy concerns levels of reality, specifically the existence of a transcendental/divine/ultimate reality and a profane lower reality. The essence of ego death and religious psychological transformation is a reconciliation (or a 'marriage') between these 2 levels

 

[zezt]

The so-called "perennial philosophy"(philosophia perennis "eternal philosophy") has been critiqued by feminists. The 'Perennial philosophy', also known as the 'monomyth', 'the hero's journey' gets a good critique here: Chapter 3: The Feminist Critique of the Separated Self

another random, irrelevant link!!!!

To YOU maybe it is. Not to me. You seem to want to impose your worldview on everyone, and show the angy demand "!!!". Is that your ego death in action....or what? What is it maxfreakout?

the hero's journey/monomyth and the perennial philosophy are not the same thing, they are loosely related but not in any sense which that article addresses. The issue Eldritch was raising is the applicability of the perennial philosophy to the psychedelic experience, this is a very important topic for ego death theory

the hero's journey is the universal structure of myth, the perennial philosophy is the timelessly recurrent philosophical themes

you demand I believe that right?....or else what? What will you do? Stab me with more exclamation points till I cower under your 'vast understanding' of what it all means?
Where is my freedom for my OWN interpretation? You are coming on dogmatic. That I MUST see it your way, and Michael Hoffman's way, and my way of learning is wrong. Slamming me for even using the 'wrong' links...again.

Even 'GOD' wasn't so trying , and that's saying something! Hmmmm I notice he would talk to you like shit and you were as good as gold...then?

Perennial philosophy concerns levels of reality, specifically the existence of a transcendental/divine/ultimate reality and a profane lower reality. The essence of ego death and religious psychological transformation is a reconciliation (or a 'marriage') between these 2 levels

Maxfreakout.....you could not have possibly absorbed all the meaning of critique I presented in that last link, I can tell

 

[maxfreakout]

zest your post has no connection to anything i am saying, all i am trying to do here is to explain ego death theory and transcendental psychedelic insight. I assume, rightly or wrongly, that you want to understand what im talking about, because why else would you be posting in this thread? (ie a thread about ego death theory :?: )

another random, irrelevant link!!!!

To YOU maybe it is. Not to me

It is irrelevant to the conversation

it has no relevance to perennial philosophy, which you falsely claimed was the same thing as the hero myth, as i explained the hero myth is the perennial mythic storyline (think 'Star Wars'), and perennial philosophy is the perennial philosophical themes in particular the concept of a hierarchy of reality (think Huxley)

You seem to want to impose your worldview on everyone

i want to explain ego death theory to you and anyone else who wants to understand it, all i am doing is explaining what the theory says and responding to your misunderstandings

you demand I believe that right?

it's not about 'belief', it's about understanding a theory, i dont 'demand' anything, if you want to understand the theory, i will explain it to you, if you dont want to understand it, then i dont know why you are posting on this thread, all that i am doing, is responding as clearly as i can to your misunderstandings

Maxfreakout.....you could not have possibly absorbed all the meaning of critique I presented in that last link, I can tell

i didnt read it, i just checked to see that it isnt anything to do with perennial philosphy, and is therefore entirely irrelevant to Eldritch's post. You have done that several times on this thread, post up irrelevant links, without giving any kind of explanation about exactly what they are about or why you are posting them, that last link had nothing to do with perennial philosophy

 

[BrainEater]

hmm looks like kindergarden to me!!! :roll:

anyways i am bored so i am just gonna copy and paste this:

According to Huxley, the perennial philosophy is:

the metaphysic that recognizes a divine Reality substantial to the world of things and lives and minds; the psychology that finds in the soul something similar to, or even identical with, divine Reality; the ethic that places man's final end in the knowledge of the immanent and transcendent Ground of all being; the thing is immemorial and universal. Rudiments of the perennial philosophy may be found among the traditional lore of primitive peoples in every region of the world, and in its fully developed forms it has a place in every one of the higher religions
The Perennial Philosophy, p. vii).

The Buddha declined to make any statement in regard to the ultimate divine Reality. All he would talk about was Nirvana, which is the name of the experience that comes to the totally selfless and one-pointed. […] Maintaining, in this matter, the attitude of a strict operationalist, the Buddha would speak only of the spiritual experience, not of the metaphysical entity presumed by the theologians of other religions, as also of later Buddhism, to be the object and (since in contemplation the knower, the known and the knowledge are all one) at the same time the subject and substance of that experience.
The Perennial Philosophy

The Perennial Philosophy is expressed most succinctly in the Sanskrit formula, tat tvam asi ('That thou art'); the Atman, or immanent eternal Self, is one with Brahman, the Absolute Principle of all existence; and the last end of every human being, is to discover the fact for himself, to find out who he really is.
Aldous Huxley

According to Karl Jaspers:

"Despite the wide variety of philosophical thought, despite all the contradictions and mutually exclusive claims to truth, there is in all philosophy a One, which no man possesses but about which all serious efforts have at all times gravitated: the one eternal philosophy, the philosophia perennis."

 

[zezt]

Maxfreakout 8) Don't presume to be my teacher teaching me how I should think about 'egodeath' and 'what Michael Hofmann means'. OK?

I am telling you what I mean in relation to what you think he means.

Stop assuming my links are 'irrelevant to the conversation', which is trying to undermine my views.



Let me ask you something maxfreakout. You seem to think you know an awful lot about 'egodeath'. I am therefore assuming you have HAD egodeath? Is this a correct assumptiion?