what's happened to Michael Hoffman from egodeath?

[maxfreakout]

See this video: Is the Brain Like a Computer?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=096IbCto ... re=related

that video isn't about computational theory of mind, so largely irrelevant to what is being discussed here, that video doesnt mention 'minds' once

it is a related, but entirely distict claim to say that 'brains' are computers

 

[Sticki]

i understand. The ego death experience is the inner teaching of all religions.

Commonly known as "Gnosis"

When the Catholic Church came into power, It brought about the Spanish Inquisition which held a nasty penalty for being a gnostic believer. :axe:

 

[BrainEater]

there might be also a slight, yet perennial difference in saying "brains are computers" and "brains are like computerss" , but i could be hairsplitting a bit too much there.....

 

[zezt]

See this video: Is the Brain Like a Computer?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=096IbCto ... re=related

that video isn't about computational theory of mind, so largely irrelevant to what is being discussed here, that video doesnt mention 'minds' once

it is a related, but entirely distict claim to say that 'brains' are computers

So let me see, you are saying the brain isn't a computer but the mind is??

Try this then?
Review - Why the Mind is Not a Computer - Philosophy

 

[maxfreakout]

So let me see, you are saying the brain isn't a computer but the mind is?

No im just saying that the video of Susan Greenfield is about the brain (she is a neuroscientist, who by the way thinks that all drug users should be in prison)
ego death theory is about the mind, not the brain

Try this then?
Review - Why the Mind is Not a Computer - Philosophy

this issue is of no importance to ego death theory, because as i said earlier the theory doesnt in any sense hinge on the mind being a computer

so to say 'i disagree with ego death theory because i disagree that the mind is a computer' doesnt make any sense, ego death theory does not assert that the mind is a computer, but it does use modern computational terminology because it provides a neat way of explaining how ego death works, it is like uninstalling then upgrading the mind's operating system, from windows egoic to windows transcendent/shamanic

forget about the mind being a computer, just think of it as the mind PROCESSES INFORMATION because that is exactly what it does, it is what your mind is doing now as it reads these words, understanding a sentence involves successfully computing its contents

 

[maxfreakout]

Commonly known as "Gnosis"

When the Catholic Church came into power, It brought about the Spanish Inquisition which held a nasty penalty for being a gnostic believer. :axe:

yes the inquisitions were all about plants

 

[Eldritch]

About the bubble experience article you linked to. Although I still find Micheal Hoffman's choice of wording very difficult to understand, I can see what he's talking about. It reminds me of something Alan Watts said that goes along the lines that we each live in our own universe that is created by our mind. And that while the color blue is "blue" to me, it might be "red" (under my definition of "red") to you, and there's no way of finding out. We just agree to refer to the color of banana as "yellow" and so on..
(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember something along these lines ;p)

That point by Watts is exactly the point Hoffman is making in the article, the whole universe is a subjective appearance being generated by YOUR brain. It is a deeper level of scepticism that just saying 'colours might appear differently to other people', it is saying that even other people might not exist (ie solipsism might be true), there might not be any other people, since other people are all part of the subjective hallucination that you refer to as 'the world'

In philosophy it is often referred to as the 'brain in a vat' principle, the appearance of being a human with a body living a life might arise because you are a brain suspended in a chemical vat, your sensory experiences are being 'fed' to you by the vat, so everything you perceive as being 'real' is actually just a chemically-induced hallucination

Where does this "the whole universe is subjective" ultimately leave a person though? I mean, I have touched upon what I believe is a deathwish in my egoless core a few times and basically it goes something like this "the world is just a product of my mind so if I kill myself I will take all the suffering of the world with me." Should I?

 

[BrainEater]

probably you shouldn't! because even if you take all the suffering with you, people will remember and want it back and recreate the suffering, as they would probably prefer it to the feeling of emptiness they might have since then and want to replace it with "known impulses". picture ADHD victims: always need new data, eat data like a meal and hectical, panicky , possibly aggressive or passive reactions are the rule that verifies the exception (or the exception that verifies the rule; take it as you prefer).

 

[Sticki]

About the bubble experience article you linked to. Although I still find Micheal Hoffman's choice of wording very difficult to understand, I can see what he's talking about. It reminds me of something Alan Watts said that goes along the lines that we each live in our own universe that is created by our mind. And that while the color blue is "blue" to me, it might be "red" (under my definition of "red") to you, and there's no way of finding out. We just agree to refer to the color of banana as "yellow" and so on..
(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember something along these lines ;p)

That point by Watts is exactly the point Hoffman is making in the article, the whole universe is a subjective appearance being generated by YOUR brain. It is a deeper level of scepticism that just saying 'colours might appear differently to other people', it is saying that even other people might not exist (ie solipsism might be true), there might not be any other people, since other people are all part of the subjective hallucination that you refer to as 'the world'

In philosophy it is often referred to as the 'brain in a vat' principle, the appearance of being a human with a body living a life might arise because you are a brain suspended in a chemical vat, your sensory experiences are being 'fed' to you by the vat, so everything you perceive as being 'real' is actually just a chemically-induced hallucination

Where does this "the whole universe is subjective" ultimately leave a person though? I mean, I have touched upon what I believe is a deathwish in my egoless core a few times and basically it goes something like this "the world is just a product of my mind so if I kill myself I will take all the suffering of the world with me." Should I?

Sounds like you are experiencing selfishness and trying to make it seem like by killing yourself you feel like you could solve the problems the world faces.

How many suicides take place daily?

Who has to pick up the pieces?

The sorrow and hurt of the individual may be gone but they just shared it out over their Family and Friends.

Solipsism is nothing more then the mind frame of a psychopath, In my view

 

[maxfreakout]

Sounds like you are experiencing selfishness and trying to make it seem like by killing yourself you feel like you could solve the problems the world faces.

How many suicides take place daily?

Who has to pick up the pieces?

The sorrow and hurt of the individual may be gone but they just shared it out over their Family and Friends.

Solipsism is nothing more then the mind frame of a psychopath, In my view

This is missing the point of solipsism, if solpsism is true, then there is NOONE to pick up the pieces, there are NO family and friends

solpsism is a perfectly coherent philosophical position, impossible to disprove

 

[maxfreakout]

Where does this "the whole universe is subjective" ultimately leave a person though? I mean, I have touched upon what I believe is a deathwish in my egoless core a few times and basically it goes something like this "the world is just a product of my mind so if I kill myself I will take all the suffering of the world with me." Should I?

but if solipsism is true, then there is no 'suffering of the world', so killing yourself wont make any difference to anyone except yourself, since noone but yourself even exists

 

[zezt]

probably you shouldn't! because even if you take all the suffering with you, people will remember and want it back and recreate the suffering, as they would probably prefer it to the feeling of emptiness they might have since then and want to replace it with "known impulses". picture ADHD victims: always need new data, eat data like a meal and hectical, panicky , possibly aggressive or passive reactions are the rule that verifies the exception (or the exception that verifies the rule; take it as you prefer).

'ADHD' is a toxic myth, and a 100 percent fraud. I dont wish to derail thread, but I feel I need to say this. If you want to start a thread about 'ADHD' do
The ADHD Fraud: How Psychiatry Makes Patients "Of Normal Children"

 

[zezt]

Enactive, Creative Cognition "Dr. Michael Wheeler explains how strong version of the view that the brain is self-organizing systems oppose the traditional understanding of it as picking up and processing information."

 

[Sticki]

Sounds like you are experiencing selfishness and trying to make it seem like by killing yourself you feel like you could solve the problems the world faces.

How many suicides take place daily?

Who has to pick up the pieces?

The sorrow and hurt of the individual may be gone but they just shared it out over their Family and Friends.

Solipsism is nothing more then the mind frame of a psychopath, In my view

This is missing the point of solipsism, if solpsism is true, then there is NOONE to pick up the pieces, there are NO family and friends

solpsism is a perfectly coherent philosophical position, impossible to disprove

Theory, Over Experience???

Are you serious mate?

Solipsism is a belief system created by selfish people to explain the lack of guilt or empathy they feel, Maybe it also falls in to the category of a destructive demonic archetype when the individual contemplates his own life?

 

[maxfreakout]

Theory, Over Experience???

Are you serious mate?

Solipsism is a belief system created by selfish people to explain the lack of guilt or empathy they feel, Maybe it also falls in to the category of a destructive demonic archetype when the individual contemplates his own life?

Solispsism isnt any kind of 'belief system', it is one simple idea, that other people's minds dont exist

Believing this idea follows very naturally from adopting a philosophical 'hyper-reflexive' view of reality, because whereas your own mental contents are presented directly to consciousness, other people's mental contents are forever hidden from you, you can only 'assume' that they exist, you could never know that they exist (but you can know that your own mind exists because you experience it directly)

It is perfectly possible to feel empathy, whilst at the same time being a solipsist, just as you can feel sad watching a sad movie even though you *know* that it is just a movie

 

[strangeloop]

strangeloop why did you need to do that. Can't you join a debate without calling people half wits and jerks. what ever happened to politeness?
None of you are jerks.

Peace and love. Even if we do not agree.

You are completly right... I apologise. The dialog here is refreshingly stimulating! I too got a bit irritable and here is why: Micheal Hoffmans Egodeath Theory is perhaps the most profound observation on the 'nature of mind' I have ever come across. Period. Although, I had read Alan Watts am very familiar with both Eastern and Western mystic traditions, etc. It wasn't untill I read Hoffman that bells started going off. AHHHhhhh.... the ring of truth I had been looking for. I tested his theories (that's right massive and heroic doses) and BEHOLD. It disappoints me to think that people (of obvious capabilities) as yourselves are letting this sacred experience pass them by because the theory doesn't 'fit' into their current worldview. Give up what your intellectual mind is telling you and experience what the wise masters of the ages have been teaching us. That's it: Just do it!

 

[magickmumu]

May i think for myself please?
I don't let the experience pass me by.
I let the theory pass me by.

 

[BrainEater]

so everything is hunky-dory now?? can we go back to enjoying our lives?? :weedman:

 

[magickmumu]

no bad feelings here

 

[zezt]

strangeloop why did you need to do that. Can't you join a debate without calling people half wits and jerks. what ever happened to politeness?
None of you are jerks.

Peace and love. Even if we do not agree.

You are completly right... I apologise. The dialog here is refreshingly stimulating! I too got a bit irritable and here is why: Micheal Hoffmans Egodeath Theory is perhaps the most profound observation on the 'nature of mind' I have ever come across. Period. Although, I had read Alan Watts am very familiar with both Eastern and Western mystic traditions, etc. It wasn't untill I read Hoffman that bells started going off. AHHHhhhh.... the ring of truth I had been looking for. I tested his theories (that's right massive and heroic doses) and BEHOLD. It disappoints me to think that people (of obvious capabilities) as yourselves are letting this sacred experience pass them by because the theory doesn't 'fit' into their current worldview. Give up what your intellectual mind is telling you and experience what the wise masters of the ages have been teaching us. That's it: Just do it!

Sp. What was your experience that was so great you feel everyone should follow your religion?