What is Ego-death ???

[Guest]

Pour moi, l'"ego-death"......

For me, "ego-death" is when one becomes really ourself. All our cultural luggage, all our values which come to us from our experience in life, any external factor which influences in one way or the other our thinking and acting, is temporarily paralysed, often partially, but probably completely in the case of heroic doses. All that remains, is the true self, that which since your birth did not change, the immutable one in oneself. This part of ourself which is normally too homogeneous with the remainder to be able to come into contact with. In short, the self, pure and simple. In short, according to my design of the ego, this experience should not be called the death of the ego, but rather a description of this last, as if it rose with top-of the remainder and collective consciousness.

Something like this?

 

[Forkbender]

KAPLOTSJ!!!!

 

[Guest]

when you no longer think in words. i think

 

[Brugmansia]

You probably don't like the word psychedelic for some reason. But to me the words psychedelic, hallucinogenic, entheogenic and mystical all mean the same thing. Ayahuasca doesn't need a different term than LSD for example. It's not that LSD is a psychedelic drug but Ayahuasca is an entheogenic sacrament. They are both a psychedelic drug and an entheogenic sacrament. Call them a trip or sacred medicine, it doesn't make much difference when you're peaking.

Psychedelic, hallucinogenic, entheogenic and mystical are not the same thing.

They can be experienced on all substances, as you elaborated. But it's the difference in, motive, set en setting.

Psychedelic is more like tripping amoung others and in collective company, for instance on a festival as been done in the sixtees. Colourful environment and people. Behaving the way you feel while peaking. It literally means 'flow of the mind'. It is less tied with the inner consciousness because the senses have to deal with pick ups from the outer world.

Mystical is just a part of the experience, for instance a flow of your vision with a profound meaning. Walking in the forest and hear the birds, it's something you can classify as mystical. It are often ordinary appearances that we see daily and we truly realise what it actually is while we have the doors open. For instance, birds are not making noises, they are communicating in some way.

Hallucinogenic is often devoted to a all psychedelics and it's effect. Very often by outsiders. It's purely refering to vision. Although we know hallucinations are just a sub-effect compared to what it does within our own inner self. It's also overestimated and used in propaganda.

Etheogen literally means 'God within ourselve'. These kinds of experiences are the result of a sober setting with just one individual that decides to lay down on his back (inner sides of the hands above, sideways to the body) and meditate. Everything in the environment should be silent and every influence should be ignored. Closed eyes (or covered) and headphones on. Focussing on travelling deep within yourself. Your awareness will become a universe with no borders and time and space is relative.

In my opinion, the Ego Death state can be merely obtained by what I described above. If one ingest a sufficient dose on a party or festival, he'll not fall into ego death. As long as the body is not disconnected from contracting (yes sitting is contraction as well) and the mind not neutral, the ego dissolution is blocked right before death, a little bit or even more of it, will remain in any way.

 

[????????]

I think there are 2 concepts being discussed and perhaps even confused...

There are some posters describing a moment of total ego annihilation, an instant reached were there is no more conceptualizing and it actually feels as if death was happening. Others say is more like a process of losing layers until experiencing a purer self. The former is not necessarily a pleasant experience but that doesn't mean it's bad, to the contrary. The latter can be progressively felt until being most strong at the peak and then receding.

I have never experienced the former but surely the latter.

..Do you agree?

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Psychedelic, hallucinogenic, entheogenic and mystical are not the same thing.

They are the same, to me. Well, sort of, I also understand the distinctions you have made. It all depends on your definition and understanding of the words. For example, you define psychedelic as "more like tripping amoung others and in collective company, for instance on a festival as been done in the sixtees." But psychedelic simply means a substance which makes the psyche visible. And the psyche is mysterious territory. The conscious, the subconscious, the collective unconscious... Where does the individual end and God (Theos in entheogen) begin?

My definition of mystical also reaches beyond "Walking in the forest and hear the birds, it's something you can classify as mystical." Mystical is referring to an intense experience of unity with All That Is.

Similarly the latin 'hallucinare' means to wander around in the mind, as in "exploring the inner realms." When visions are generated by disease or toxins, we call them delusions. They are not caused by hallucinogenic drugs, but by deliriants.

Regarding the mystical experience, this is a very interesting text: http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/GriffithsPsilocybin.pdf

 

[Brugmansia]

Nice point. Though I believe it's a matter of interpretation as well.

I would say the word mystical is a bit of an understatement when experiencing 'an intense experience of unity with All That Is'. I'd call that more like a divine transformation and an entheogenic experience.

For example, you define psychedelic as "more like tripping amoung others and in collective company, for instance on a festival as been done in the sixtees." But psychedelic simply means a substance which makes the psyche visible.

The more influences there are, the less transparant the psyche will become during the experience.

I refered to the sixties because it's a perfect example of psychedelic IMO. Or at least for what the psychedelic culture is known. You can't get explore the inner universe when there's rock music and lots of people around you. You may have moments when you fall back into your own realm. But there's no opportunity to melt down for about a few hours straight.

I have tripped on parties and in very isolated settings. And I almost tend to say that on parties it has no contribution to me personally. I remained with a sleepy feeling after and not much intergration was needed.

During the sober settings, I always need a few days off to get the full connection back with reality to function optimal within the society. Much more has been visible which wouldn't have been happend while on a party.

So perhaps it's just my association with the words. To me psychedelic is associated with the hippie generation and the young youth those days leaded by Leary.

While entheogenic is more associated with Hofmann and Junger who did their findings in Hofmann's house, accompanied by roses etc.

When visions are generated by disease or toxins, we call them delusions. They are not caused by hallucinogenic drugs, but by deliriants.

Fully agreed with this though. My environment hardly changes on LSD, apart from shapes that bend or walls that 'breath'. With mescaline, nothing changes at all, only very mild.

Shrooms are way more powerful regarding the environment. Although it's not even close to observing people that just ain't there.

 

[jj]

Brugmansia, we need to respect the meanings of words as denoted by their etymology and provenance rather than letting words mean whatever connotations they pick up in cultural usage.

Most people who have used the word "psychedelic" probably never tried a psychedelic substance or had a psychedelic experience.

Before the term "psychedelic" was coined to describe substances such as LSD and mescaline and the experiences they potentiate, these substances were just called "hallucinogens" or even "psychotomimetics." People, usually people who'd never tried them, said they cause hallucinations (false experiences) that mimic psychosis.

Then, when researchers who tried these substances realized that those words do not describe what they experienced, the new word "psychedelic" was coined. Psyche revealing, psyche opening.

This is a broad term. The range of experiences people have with these substances is very broad. Some folks even have psychotic experiences.

It seems to me that there are many descriptive terms like entheogenic and mystical which can be applied to experiences that are within the broader category called "psychedelic." And, you can have a mystical experience without taking a psychedelic. Just like I can see the color blue in an acid vision or when I'm not tripping.

The term "entheogen" was actually coined to describe the substances, such as LSD or psilocybin. I don't like that word that much because I don't see every experience coming from these substances as being one of entheogenesis, the generating of the experience of god within. They can potentiate this sort of experience, but they don't always. I like the term "psychedelic" for the substances because it is a broader term.

So, that word, psychedelic, came into the cultural language, and we hear of the psychedelic 60's, psychedelic music, psychedelic art, etc.

However, if we just let every word mean whatever anyone says it means, even if most people who use the word have never even tried a psychedelic substance or had a psychedelic experience, then language comes pretty quickly to be meaningless.

Which then renders discussion pointless.

So, if we are going to try to talk, let's try to keep our words a bit more stable in meaning, rather than having them mean whatever each individual thinks they mean based on what they got from watching tv shows in which mass media commentators who never tripped talk about the psychedelic 60's.

Saves us a lot of time trying to explain to each other what words mean to us, what we mean by the word "mean," and other absurdities that tend to lead people to the conclusion that speech is all nonsense, when maybe it's just some people's speech that's all nonsense.

I seem to recall Humpty Dumpty and Alice having a conversation about how we use words. Humpty said he could use a word to mean whatever he wished it to mean at any given time. Alice had doubts about whether you could do that. I guess she was a child and not wise to the ways of the world, where people do that all the time.

Humpty's response was that when he employed words, he could indeed use them any way he wished. And indeed, they surely were his employees, since they all came round on Saturday night, pestering him for their pay.

Yeah, they'll do that.

 

[Brugmansia]

Fair enough pal. :thumbsup:

Thanks for the info as well, I might stick with Caduceus.

 

[mutant]

I just read some of this.

interestingly enough you are not ALL talking about the same thing, and that's because you are discussing a foul term

There cannot be a real ego death. The ego can be smashed, crashed, by a psychedelic experience or non-drug experiences.

Well, even if you take TONS of psychedelics, which I am sure then the ego is suppressed, even then it's not completely dead.
I was wondering what ego-death means also, when I first got in the net community, a year or so ago. I think there are different people who mean different things.

Is it moments of extreme awereness, epiphany, "When your awareness is seperated from your identity" {I liked that, as well everything Rymmen said. which coutry's flag is this anyway? - like it that you mention dissociatives here, as well}

Is it "the moment that the delusion of ego falls" ?

There are many cups of tea. I sense that dissociatives are more like death, ego-death, awereness death, to me that is.

But hey, you cannot kill ego take my word for it

Ego is the motivational power of evolution

EDIT:Nice post jj, too. Entheogen, as a term, didn't or shouldn't intend to describe substances or plants qualities, but approaches and intentions - I don't like the term either, because its not descriptive of the class - psychedelic is the right word. And, oh dissociative is quite a suitable word for the other class of 'psychedelics'

 

[????????]

which coutry's flag is this anyway?

If you leave the cursor still for a bit on the flag, the name appears. Some names are spelled wrong, like mine. It should be Colombia >_>

 

[maxfreakout]

one part of ego is permanently killed at ego death, the part which used to think the illusion was reality

the rest of ego is reborn after ego death, with this one missing part

 

[magickmumu]

What is ego death? . Ego death is fiction. ego is illusion, and so is ego death. I don't believe in ego death.
Ego death is worthless if you don't do something with it.
Ego death brings awareness, but you got to work to keep this awareness going.
I can have a ego death experience and just turn my head and go back to where i started.
but there is something about the experience that indeed stays with you.
I believe in ego death.

 

[Lion]

What is ego death? . Ego death is fiction. ego is illusion, and so is ego death. I don't believe in ego death.
Ego death is worthless if you don't do something with it.
Ego death brings awareness, but you got to work to keep this awareness going.
I can have a ego death experience and just turn my head and go back to where i started.
but there is something about the experience that indeed stays with you.
I believe in ego death.

first you believe in ego-death and then you don't?? I can't seem to follow.

 

[mutant]

If you leave the cursor still for a bit on the flag, the name appears. Some names are spelled wrong, like mine. It should be Colombia

no it doesn't. maybe it's firefox...

 

[????????]

Maybe this fixes it? --> https://addons.mozilla.org/es-ES/firefox/addon/1933

Of course, you can always just right-click->properties and check the filename.

 

[buffachino]

Man, this thread turned into a shit fight of terminology pretty darn quick.
Anyone noticing a pattern between this and anything else pertinent to our studies of consciousness??
Ill leave it to you.

 

[Psychoid]

Pour moi, l'"ego-death"......

For me, "ego-death" is when one becomes really ourself. All our cultural luggage, all our values which come from our experiences in life, any external factor which influences in one way or the other our thinking and acting, is temporarily paralysed, often partially, but probably completely in the case of heroic doses. All that remains, is the true self, that which since your birth did not change, the immutable one in oneself. This part of ourself which is normally too homogeneous with the remainder to be able to come into contact with. In short, the self, pure and simple. In short, according to my design of the ego, this experience should not be called the death of the ego, but rather a revealing of this last, as if it rose over the remainder and collective consciousness.

Something like this?

Yeah! thanks a lot!

I'm just not sure about the word remainder? I don't know this word lol ^^ What's the nuance between it and "rest"?

EDIT: I made little corrections

 

[maxfreakout]

ego death is the same kind of death the caterpillar experiences when it becomes a chrysalis

 

[zdarian]

on an acid trip as i came close to peaking, i fell into this mental spiral, loop where words, nouns, verbs, evaporated, i could no longer think in terms of language and ended up laying down, and became basically just a sensor.. all my senses and thought processes fused into a single band of information which took the form of these crazy organic visuals, outside of which there was nothing else.

OMG! I'm here with my jaw on the floor. I recently joined this community, and I'm loving it! I decided to check the English-language forum as well (being my 'father' tongue, though I live in France, hence being more active in the French forum), and I got to this topic, I thought it was going to be interesting, especially right now that I'm reading Island by Aldous Huxley... and well... did I mention my jaw's on the floor?

I read this quote and I became wordless, sort of... This same experience happened to me on a shroom trip. I can't believe this. I'm almost too shocked to express it properly.

Shoot! My roommie just got here, I gotta go. I'll tell you more later...

In shock,

Zdarian.

EDIT

Ok, I don't want to cyberlitter so I'm adding stuff to my post instead of making a new one.

Ego death to me happened in January, 2008. In Amsterdam, in my favourite smartshop Conscious Dreams Kokopelli. I had taken 3/4 of a McKennaii shroom package. My Colombian friend took the other quarter. We hadn't eaten anything before, as recommended (it was my 3rd trip on shrooms).

I will not detail my trip, since this isn't really the trip experience or shrooms forum. I'll get straight to ego-death.

I had too many thoughts on my mind, I was feeling that there were too many stimuli for me to handle. I was sitting there with open eyes, on a comfy couch, looking stoned most likely, yet I was looking at myself from the outside, and I was looking at everything and everybody else at the same time. The first few minutes I thought it was too much, I thought my thoughts were after me and there were too many of them.

Then I got to the point were I realised I was just feeling, being no more than pure energy. I realised how imperfect and shallow things were, going from our bodies to languages (and that's a tough thing for me to grasp being a linguist). I wasn't seeing anything anymore, in our conventional and limited ways, I was feeling the energy that's everywhere, that we emit and that touches me, my friend, the Australian coulple in front of me, the canal to my right, end everything else. Yet I had my eyes open, and most likely they were staring at something. But it didn't matter. Energy was way more meaningful and real, I found Tao. I felt like I was finally experiencing what our future will be like (and maybe what our distant past was), but it wasn't a Japanese video game. I was there, I was part of it for a little bit. I was just pure energy, and everything else. And I've always known that everything is energy and that energy doesn't die, but I had never seen it, or actually see it. This time I was the main character, only to realise after a few seconds that there are no characters, just energy, each and everyone with a peculiar colour and way of shining, but energy nevertheless.

:shock:

I feel something positively weird by writing this words... it's the first time I've told this trip, or I should say, this part of the trip, to anybody. I think I haven't yet grasped the whole thing, for I'm still chained to my limited body and language and cage. But I'm definitely more aware of things... I guess I'm growing, like everyone should after an ego-death.

Peace & Love,

Zdarian.