What is better?... traditional or analog?

[linus20]

Hey guys n gals, i'm new to this site, just trying to become as well infromed on this drug as possible.

So, I've been reading about ayahuasca on here. I've pasted the recipe bit in below.

In this article, and others, they seem to be really pushing that you should stick to the 'traditonal ingredients' and not mess with the syrian rue and mimosa hostillis.

I am fine with this, but I am reading experiences on erowid and they seem to be mostly of the anolog mix of syrian rue and mimosa. I have also read some that they have tried the cappi and viridis only to achieve a state of nausea and diahrrea.

The only psychedelic i've taken is mushrooms; i got quite into them while i could. I am very interested in spiritual awakening, but i would be lying to say this is my primary goal above just having a bit of fun and a trip out.

So what are your opinions / experiences ? I would be grateful to know. Also, if you can share any further info u think might help, that would be cool, thanks

m


Ayahuasca Analogs
1 ----- Peganum harmala (syrian rue) seeds mixed with Mimosa hostilis (jurema): recommended for advanced ayahuasca consumers. Boil 10 grams of finely ground Peganum harmala seeds with 5-10 grams of finely ground Mimosa hostilis bark.
2 ----- Peganum harmala (syrian rue) seeds mixed with Psychotria viridis (chacruna): recommended for first time ayahuasca consumers and those with limited ayahuasca experience. Boil 10 grams of finely ground Peganum harmala seeds with 30 grams of finely ground foliage (leaves) of Psychotria viridis.
3 ----- Peganum harmala (syrian rue) seeds mixed with Diplopterys cabrerana (chaliponga): recommended for advanced ayahuasca consumers. Boil 10 grams of finely ground Peganum harmala seeds with 10 grams of finely ground foliage (leaves) of Diplopterys cabrerana.
4 ----- Banisteriopsis caapi mixed with Mimosa hostilis: recommended for advanced ayahuasca consumers. Boil 40 grams of finely ground Banisteriopsis caapi with 5-10 grams of finely ground Mimosa hostilis bark.

Traditional Ayahuasca
1 ----- Banisteriopsis caapi (ayahuasca vine) mixed with Psychotria viridis (chacruna): Recommended for first time ayahuasca consumers and those with limited ayahuasca experience. Boil 40 grams of finely ground Banisteriopsis caapi with 30 grams of finely ground foliage (leaves) of Psychotria viridis.
2 ----- Banisteriopsis caapi (ayahuasca vine) mixed with Diplopterys cabrerana (chaliponga): Recommended for advanced ayahuasca consumers. Boil 40 grams of finely ground Banisteriopsis caapi with 10 grams of finely ground foliage (leaves) of Diplopterys cabrerana.

There are various types of Banisteriopsis caapi available for making ayahuasca. These categories are divided according to the potency they impart to ayahuasca, rather than being different varieties of Banisteriopsis caapi.
--- Red caapi is considered very potent. Ayahuasca made with it was taken by a shaman when performing healing rituals. A patient would take a less potent ayahuasca (made of yellow caapi).
--- White caapi is considered moderately potent. It was associated with ayahuasca made for magic rituals. Purposes included both casting and protecting oneself from spells.
--- Yellow caapi is considered mildly potent and relatively gentle compared to other types of caapi. It was associated with ayahuasca made for first timers and those with limited experience.

 

[linus20]

anyone ?

 

[IJesusChrist]

I am very interested in spiritual awakening, but i would be lying to say this is my primary goal above just having a bit of fun and a trip out.

I'll be blunt, get the hell out of here and don't do Ayahuasca.

I don't speak for everyone.

 

[linus20]

haha, ok mate

so is there anyone here thats not a twat that can answer my question please?

 

[IJesusChrist]

haha, ok mate

so is there anyone here thats not a twat that can answer my question please?

Get the fuck out of here.

 

[vibrancy3]

Ok to be less blunt............

Ayahuasca is a very strong! it is not really something to just ''have a bit of fun and a trip out'' if you have only had one psychadelic experience i would'nt go ahead and do Ayahuasca (if you have read about it, you will know the potency of dmt and it is VERY strong experience)

If i were you i would leave til you have some more psychadelic knowledge and experiences!

But end of day jesus christ is right!

Ayahuasca will hit lke lighting if you havent much experience and its not something to just mess around with, it does seem like you just want to get high of this stuff which is not really the right intention!

If you decide you really want to try this (cause no-1 can stop you) dont do Ayahuasca! research DMT, experiences and simple STB tek's and start with VERY VERY low dosages!

But i would'nt do this right now judging by what you said!

Give it a couple years yet cause you mght get more than you bargained 4 :axe:

 

[trick]

im going to have to agree, nethier form of dmt are right for you. if you want to have some fun and trip out, as well as experience the amazing mindopening qualities of psychedelics, i highly reccomend mushrooms. my first time on mushrooms i diddnt have a spiritual awakening, but i did have alot of fun. it took a much higher dose and a trip sitter who was experienced in the feild of mind travel afew months later to get in touch with my deeper side. although IJC may have been abit blunt, he most certianly is not a twat, everyone on this form is here to help.

we just all have diffrent languages

EDIT: and honestly, i dont think you would have much fun on dmt. smoking it is like instantly being run through a spiritual blender, and drinking it is even less forgiving, not to mention most people puke their brains out. dosnt sound like much fun to me.

 

[linus20]

Ok,

thanks for the replies,

So maybe i didn't word my post well enough. I should have written, 'i am not pretentious enough to say that i am entering into this purely for spiritual awakening.' I am into lots of things that I consider development, and i would consider an experience like this, loosely, as development.'

I guess through skim reading, my usage was also mis-interpreted: In the psychedelic world, I have only taken mushrooms, but i have had a fair few of them and many experiences. I have read a fair amount now on ayahuasca and feel that I have read near as much as the internet will offer without expense and without learning the entire historical content of south america.

So anyway, I really appreciate the concern as you all dont know me at all, and I can see how what i wrote could be mis-interpreted. But I have now filled you in on the details. I do know my thumb from my dick so you don't need to worry about that, so i would be grateful for an end of the 'nanny talk.'

I will be taking this stuff, I have a date, all the microscopes, petri dishes and a 70's style lab coat awaits me! I will make a choice on my own if i have to, but i was hoping to get some good quality advice about what to get, and how much to take and any other advice you may kindly give.

?

Thanks

m

 

[trick]

its good to hear that your edjucated, there was deffinatly a mis communication. im sure the other members who are more experienced with dmt will chime in soon to give you some info, ive never done it myself so i cant really reccomend any doses or methods for you, but as mentioned above, i hear its good to start out smoking small ammounts and gradually building up till you breakthrough, but there was a big "debate" so to say about this afew threads ago, so i fear you may get 2 extremely diffrent opinions on how to approach it lol.

sorry for the nanny act mate, im sure you can see where were comming from. this stuff isnt to be taken lightly.

whatever you decide on good luck!

 

[vibrancy3]

Probably one the best DMT quotes in the world? lol..........

smoking it is like instantly being run through a spiritual blender

If your CERTAIN you are going to try this and have set date and what not swim would start out with a simple STB tek (straight to base) swim would avoid doing ayahuasca if its going to be your first dmt experience! lke ppl say its very strong and not nice throwing up for your 1st experience!

There are many tek's out there straight to base and acid base (a/b) ones but alot of them involve alot of equipment, buying alot of dmt containing root bark,corrosive chemicals and fire (welll in swim's opinion)

swim has posted a tek called >>>>>

''How to extract DMT (The Easy & low-cost way)''

post-37988.html?f=36

(very similar to Marsofold's tek only its has been tweaked to simplify things, avoid all that technical jargon and be low cost for a first timer user(s)

In this tek it mainly involves adding water, adding you lye (caustic soda) adding your root bark, let stand for 24hours then adding naphtha then swirling about, giving it a water bath and syphoning off your naphtha containing the dmt and finally using the freeze precip method (putting it in a freezer, lol)

If you going to extract dmt swim would'nt go 4 all that petri dish, 70's lab coats and what not, end of day does'nt it just complicate things if your just starting out (swim really found it fraustraing the way ppl make it complicated like calling caustic soda N0ah or sodium hydroxide)

Dosage wise swim would start with the typical 5-10mg (never underestimate the potential of dmt thruoght VERY strong)

Smoking it there are also a number of ways on the net on how to do so! but swim find if you just put your desired amount in a shotty/bong on top of some baccy and cover it with lots of green and be carefully not burn it 2 much it works fine!

DMT-Nexus is a good source for info on tek's experience, emulsions ect (but some ppl have messed swim around in the past)

Now obtainig your products for a tek can be complicated (all depending on what your getting)

If you plan on using swim's tweaked tek swim would suggest buying the typical mimosa hostills root bark to start of with and buying your caustic soda from the soap kitchen (500g swim thinks it was £8)

swim wont give post links incase swim get in trouble with some1 but if you plan on buying mimosa hostills dont buy it off ebay, drop swim an email swim knows of a supplier selling 2% alkoloid (thats twice as much dmt in the bark rather than the stuff on ebay or many other places that is only 1% alkoloids)

swim dont think swim has missed anything vital! if sooo some1 will eventually correct swim...................

And best of luck with your future extractions! stay safe be safe and act safe when dealing with anything to do with tek's

 

[IJesusChrist]

Ayahuasca, plain and simple, is only going to benefit you as a person, in any positive manner, if you approach it in just that way; as a beneficial act to yourself.

If you go into DMT (let alone ayahuasca for a minute) you are going to get ripped apart. Be it whether you like it or not - whether you are conscious of it's hold on your psyche or not, it's going to man-handle you. Smoking DMT for a the beginner can be quite easy - the subject forgets what he/she has learned, and can go on with their daiy life. The trip is 15 minutes long, but the afterglow cna last 2 days (for me atleast... I take a long time to re-cooperate from such things).

If you are going to take ayahuasca, you may die, not physically or literally, but mentally and psychologically. This may seem like "Whoa dude that sounds crazy" but it's the most intense thing you can ever experience. Ever have the "what if my family/friends died" trip? Imagine the "I'm dieing, everything is dieing." trip. Do you think you can handle death? For up to 6 hours? What if you are confronted with yourself, the most vile, disgusting, obnoxious part of yourself? Will you be able to handle it for 6 hours?

I have never fully dosed on ayahuasca, nor do I intend to... possibly ever. My sole experience with it showed me that it was far, far superior to anything I could handle by myself. The ground began to breath, the earth began to shed it's unimaginable angst upon my body, and I sank in the sand.

A true ayahuasca dose will grab you and not let go, I really hope you realize this. A mmushroom trip's "Oh my god" revelation becomes your life if you experience it on ayahuasca / DMT.

That is my experience... Judge yourself, bud, cause this isn't a sandbox toy.

 

[linus20]

thanks vibrancy, that looks possible!..., and thanks for other replies

So, i've got to admit, you guys are putting me off ayahuasca a little. Maybe dmt extraction is a better idea if its safe?......

I do believe you and all, but some of the experiences on erowid seem quite ok, so i am now confused.

Is it really that strong?.. or is it quite strong and also there is the annoyance of puking? I mean, Bruce Parry did it!.. and whilst on camera!. So my rationale was; if Bruce can do it on camera and not freak out, i'll probably be ok.

I mean, obviously i dont want to do anything that will scar me for life, but at the same time i wouldn't want to miss out on a magical experience just because some pussy that hasn't even done a proper dose is scaremongering? (only j/k ijc ).

If i was confronted with the most vile part of me, at least that would be some progress, I might even learn something...probably that i have a vile part(s) of me

 

[IJesusChrist]

"Is this stuff really the strong?"
Here, read this trip report. This is a proper dose...

Thrust into the maelstrom and stripped so profoundly of the impression that « I am » and that I exist, that whatever is left of me is thoroughly convinced that all I believed I had experienced, up to now, reveals itself, like a dagger through the heart of the mind, as an elaborate illusion to which I shall never return. Worse than cessation, more painful than the thought of death is the realization that you NEVER WERE… (note : I have, in my clearer moments, accepted my death and have faced it numerous times with other materials, but this, as with my experiences with salvia, was of an order more disturbing, to say the least…)

In the midst of the mess was a chorus : « it’s Saturday, Saturday, Saturday, it’s Saturday » screeching across the vista of my mind, until, sitting up and opening my eyes in a futile attempt to dispel the hell, I realize, seeing the room utterly transformed, that it is me screaming the day of the week – but it’s not me as well. And it’s Sunday. And I am never coming back to know what a day of the week is, because there is NO BACK TO, NO FROM, AND NO TO (let alone the mundanity of a day of a week of some year in some life). (note : I had a similar salvia trip where my field of view was filled with orange monochromatic, puffy and expanding, thick, black-outlined cartoon school buses, and a similar chorus was singing, invitingly, menacingly and with ambivalence all at once in voices that were a dis/harmony of insectoid screeches layered over the clearest of sopranos : « it’s Wednesday, Wednesday, it’s Wednesday Wednesday Wednesday… » ; yes, accompanied with the same sensations described above – IT FELT LIKE THE SAME PLACE. Maybe my mind is not constructed for the use of these substances…)

A loop - endless inexorable recursion… I sit up and then fall back into a cartoon abyss of colours and Saturday Saturday Saturday… Endless eternal indomitable recursion, an irremediable feedback loop (note : curiously I have always maintained that video/audio feedback loops are the face/voice of god…) – consciousness itself ? Am I at the root of the Hofstadter loop? The MandelThought ? The firmware of my mind ? Is this a breakthrough, pure and horrifying ? Have I disabled the illusion, unbuilt the edifice of « consensual reality » to get down to the base, most reptilian and ancient form of simple consciousness – a terrifying self-referential eternal loop of non-being ? or un-being ? the horror…

The universe and our consciousness (common and universal or not) is neither good nor evil nor ambivalent, but rather profoundly indifferent, and as neutral as any void can be. I feel this more than I know it.

Once the most intense of these sensations passed, I am able to open my eyes. There is another dimension visible : height, length, width and the passage of time have newly revealed themselves, but in addition to these co-ordinates is another. I don’t need to tell you it was indescribable, but I will nevertheless do my best with these monkey paws and keystrokes. Like trailers from walls and stairs and in the very air itself, but at once so much more than a simple visual phenomenon, I feel I am glimpsing something new to me, but that has always been there. I feel not unlike a beast who understands up, down, to and fro and has a sudden epiphany that it exists also in a universe of passing moments, conceptualizing past, present and future in an instant through the sudden awakening of a new sense.

I realize I am no more than a raw ego-less nerve of consciousness, subjected to a nonsensical and arbitrary string of luminescent and aural detritus. (Note : I meant during the trip, but the cynic in me supposes this could be applied to everyday living…)

It felt about as spiritual as a kitchen knife excoriation. I can only conclude that the spiritual aspect of this substance lies in the interpretation of the experience - but that contradicts my very understanding of spirituality as something felt not thought. I don’t…

I enjoy challenges, but this seems insurmountable, an unassailable task of back and forth and down down down through a self-perpetuating, Sisyphean recursive loop, like a perpetual motion ride past the far reaches of sanity… Where is the value in this ? What wisdom is to be had that cannot otherwise be gleaned ?

Cresting and lulling waves messing with the fine mesh of mind…

Other Spice journeys stimulated, made me think ; this one ground the thinking apparatus to a precipitous halt. Beyond intellect and beyond description and above all beyond even intuitive comprehension. The ball that rolled didn’t only cease to roll, it first became a cube, then vaulted through and beyond the realm of multi-dimensional polyhedra and became an ineffable 8i5v n 843-tg8i’jiknp2… I can’t even attempt to understand. The only questions that remain are whether it is worth returning to hyperspace (assuming I was there…) and – is…it…dangerous… ?

I don’t want to discredit the advice often given on the nexus to remain calm and not to resist, but to me at this point it is analogous to hitting someone in the head with a bat and telling them not to feel the pain (note : I am sure some zen aficionados out there will have something to say on this subject). I suppose I did resist, but I have no clear idea through what mechanism, ‘cause I did not feel there was an active I to resist with. « I » was obliterated, so if there was resistance and an absence of calm, from whence… ?

If you can’t make sense of something because the word sense no longer applies or signifies, then is there a point, a meaning beyond simply an absence thereof ?

At what cost wisdom ? and is it wisdom if it proves unwise ? There are so many paths to wisdom, and none of them promised or guaranteed – therein lies their beauty and value. But in the balance of things, is the price and the risk involved in certain behaviours, along uncertain paths worth the distant possibility of wisdom ? Someone hit by a truck, paraplegic, learns lessons everyday that no one not confined to a wheelchair and incapable of voluntary movement can learn. There is wisdom here that can be learned nowhere else, but no one in their right mind would throw themselves in front of a truck to gain these insights. There are other paths and other wisdoms ; are we throwing ourselves in front of a truck called spice ? Or am I ? Or is it only me that feels this way ?

This is his 15 minute journey.

Another:

I don't know where to start and whether this world is real or an illusion... I seem to have loaded an unknown massive dose into a DMT pipe, melted the spice, and inhaled. I inhaled one massive hit and felt like my reality was starting to turn inside out. I put the pipe down while I still could, and (I think) fell back into my sofa. I can't really explain what happened... Time seemed to stop and I was in a new place. All I can say is it was alien beyond words. Some beings immediately showed up and were communicating with me (screaming?) and proceeded to tear my soul apart. I literally felt and still feel torn to pieces and to an extent my soul feels raped. The next thing that I can put into words is I thought that I was dying. There was a terrifyingly loud noise in the beginning like a ringing, and then loud noises like echoes and voices from all over the place. Next thing I know that I did as myself when I became aware of this reality as an earthling is that I stood up and desperately started clawing the shutters trying to open them to get some light into the room to see what the hell was happening. Here time was slowing down to still, and then accelerating to extremely fast and displaying every speed in between. All I saw was a bright light and the room melting and distancing/closing in on me. I felt like I was 20 feet tall and collapsed on the floor, thinking I've overdosed of poisoned myself somehow on something, not knowing what myself actually was anymore. What felt like a stomach began gurgling as if I was going to throw up, and I got up and started about my apartment stumbling around, thrashing and collapsing. I made it onto something that seemed like a sofa and began thinking only of my family and my sitter and how they would feel when they found out I had died in my apartment alone. I started screaming out loud things like "ok, I understand now, I understand your power" and "I'm back now, I am in my body, I'm here, this is where I was born" and "please have mercy". I don't know how, but I was totally disconnected from reality... there was a bright light shining in through my windows and everything including my hands were melting and swirling. I tried opening the computer to communicate with someone for possible help. I then noticed my clock and saw the time and started watching it, drifting in an out of this room and some other place.

To summarize now that I seem to be about my senses in typing this, I am absolutely shocked and in awe of what just happened to me... I feel shaken down to the very foundations of my soul and my perception of what is real. In fact, just before I got the motor skills to type this I though perhaps I was insane, and simply dreaming a sane life this whole time. I am struggling to go over my memories to confirm that indeed I am who I think I am and my life here did happen. I cannot say anymore at this time since I simply cannot find the words to describe it any further. I now understand what this DMT is capable of...

THESE ARE 15 MINUTE TRIPS. Given DMT is very fast, very intense, and much more immidiate and forceful compared to ayahuasca. Ayahuasca is slightly more forgiving, but I do not want to over-play that... igtg

 

[linus20]

yeh, that sounds pretty heavy, lol. maybe is just better to do a small dose of ayahuasca.

 

[IJesusChrist]

You have to understand, "tripping out" is for trippers. If you want to trip out, go do some Dxm or some cough syrup. LSd and psilocybin can be used to "trip out" in smaller doses, but larger doses and you approach DMT- thought.

If you smoke DMT, as I have numerous times, or drink it, you will see that I, and these people, are not lieing. We have experienced the most intense moments of our entire life times. We have seen what makes the world tick, yet we don't understand it, nor can we remember it. Takeing DMT will slap you into a brick wall, where you will fall into whatever your psyche constructs. Be it flowers and rainbows and sex, aliens and telepathy and omnipotency, or be it a rude awakening in hell.

It isn't safe for me to ever say "Oh yeah, you - on the internet asking about DMT and Ayahuasca - you'll be fine, I'm sure your trip will show you a bunch of fuzzy love."

No. My approach to pure Ayahuasca and Pure DMT is that you fucking go for it man. It will heal you, it will digest you, and it will destroy you. I wasn't ready for it my first time, but I absolutely love being psychologically disasembled, I love watching the universe come apart before my perceptions of reality. I love the struggle to find meaning in a meaningless void.

Can you say you will be able to confront this? Death? Mental, physical death? Can you confront the possibility that you may never return the same again? IT may take years (literally years - I've had hundreds of posts on my recovery(s)) to come down again.

My purest advice: Go for it.

I think you got a glimpse of my intensity in my first posts, and how intense this could be now go have fun and make your own decisions. DMT-Nexus.org (.com?) has plenty of information on preperations of different strengths of ayahuasca and DMT.

Now you know.

 

[trick]

"is it that strong?"

its the strongest case closed.

 

[vibrancy3]

Just stick with a small dmt bong every now and then thats what swim does

Gotta admid swim has never broke thruogh, dont think ready for it yet but will when swim gains more experience and understanding....

 

[linus20]

yeh dmt bong sounds great, but i gotta make the stuff and although it doesn't look too hard, i dont have a freezer where i live

so i just thought it would be easier to make a brew...

so am i to understand that Bruce Parry is some kind of legend?... because he never seems like he'll crack or anything. Also, what about this jaguar! He/she doesn't look too bad...

 

[Brugmansia]

It's a matter of dose and preperation, not the ayahuasca per se. The only reason why ayahuasca is often marked as extremely strong is because with a powerful brew it's easy to get great amounts into your system. Unlike for instance San Pedro or Peyote which require a lot of material in volume for the traveller to get somewhere near the intensity of a full mushroom/DMT trip.

All psychedelics in the end have the potency to resident somewhere on the same level as a break through on DMT, like 1 miligram of acid, 20 grams cubensis, 1200 miligrams mescaline hcl or multiple shots of strong ayahuasca, you won't care anymore about not feeling the connection with your body and being locked up into your hypothalamus.

The reason why I prefer smoking DMT over Ayahuasca is because of simplicity reasons and there's no reason to be modest as after 15 minutes I'm back to baseline almost, just another 45 minutes with CEV's but almost normal levels of consciousness with open eyes. But the blast of smoked DMT is as I'm getting an injection with 20 grams psilocybine.

 

[EndlessEntity]

yea from reading this thread people are doing alot of criticizing and scaring.
we need to help people who want the knowledge not judge them.
Smoked DMT is VERY intense, but we dont have to act all pompous and all knowing just because we think we are doing it for the right reasons and they are not. yes i do what i do to better myself spiritually and to understand the altered states and my subjective experience of the world, but really if someone is doing psychedelics purely for their spirit and not having fun on it AT ALL, then they are the ones who should stop doing it. lying to people on a thread is one thing lying to yourself will come back and get you