The Proverbs of Hell

[maxfreakout]

A man that sufered from a modern anti drug propoganda fantasy disorder ??? Is this evidence of time travel ?

HPPD is a real condition, it has nothing to do with propaganda, im sure there are lots of people posting here who have experienced it, i had it for several years

 

[GOD]

You had something and you think it was HPPD . It has not been proven that it exists , and all the symptoms that people atribute to HPPD have been observed in people who dont take drugs . If you look in wikipedia you will see that .

Please dont spread drug war propoganda based on an internet survey as fact . Prove it exists and prove its caused by drugs .

 

[maxfreakout]

You had something and you think it was HPPD . It has not been proven that it exists , and all the symptoms that people atribute to HPPD have been observed in people who dont take drugs . If you look in wikipedia you will see that .

Please dont spread drug war propoganda based on an internet survey as fact . Prove it exists and prove its caused by drugs .

what im saying has nothing to do with an internet survey, it is based on my own personal experience

i experienced HPPD as a result of taking drugs, i had never experienced anything like it before, then after i tripped on mushrooms a few times, the trip visuals started to overflow into daily undrugged life. I have spoken to many people who experienced exactly the same thing, and im absolutely sure there will be many other posters on here who have also

so it is definitely real and nothing to do with propaganda, anmd it is fairly common among people who use psychedelics on a regular basis

but it definitely happens to people not related to drugs also, i know one guy who is schizophrenic who gets crazy visual distortions, people also experience synaesthesia who have never taken drugs. So it isnt necessarily caused by drugs, but drugs definitely can cause it

 

[GOD]

You and others experienced something . You call it HPPD instead of what reputable doctors and scientists call it . If you read wiki and the links and the links from the links , or the several threads that have been on the same subject here lately you wouldnt be so sure of what you say .

" but drugs definitely can cause it"

They dont cause it , they help some people to be aware of something that is already there that they hadnt noticed .

 

[maxfreakout]

You and others experienced something . You call it HPPD instead of what reputable doctors and scientists call it . If you read wiki and the links and the links from the links , or the several threads that have been on the same subject here lately you wouldnt be so sure of what you say .

" but drugs definitely can cause it"

They dont cause it , they help some people to be aware of something that is already there that they hadnt noticed .

there is no other name for it except HPPD, i have experienced it, and it is fairly common among entheogen users, the visual effects you experience in a trip, do not compltely end when the trip ends

Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder is a long-term visual disorder caused by taking hallucinogens. It is a recognised condition described in DSM IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) under Diagnostic Code: 292.89. The DSM is the standard manual for mental disorders used by psychologists and psychiatrists in the United States. In the DSM III, HPPD was referred to as Post Hallucinogen Perception Disorder (PHPD) and this phrase is often still used. In the 1960s and 1970s, HPPD was often included under the umbrella term "flashbacks". Although flashbacks and persisting perceptual disorders are distinct problems, the two may be associated. Unlike flashbacks, HPPD is most often characterized by continual visual interference rather than a series of acute attacks.

 

[maxfreakout]

this is from DSM

Diagnostic criteria for Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder

1. The re-experiencing, following cessation of use of a hallucinogen, of one or more of the perceptual symptoms that were experienced while intoxicated with the hallucinogen (e.g., geometric hallucinations, false perceptions of movement in the peripheral visual fields, flashes of colors, intensified colors, trails of images of moving objects, positive afterimages, halos around objects, macropsia, and micropsia.
2. The symptoms in Criterion A cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
3. The symptoms are not due to a general medical condition (e.g., anatomical lesions and infections of the brain, visual epilepsies) and are not better accounted for another mental disorder (e.g., delirium, dementia, Schizophrenia) or hypnopompic hallucinations.

 

[Nomada]

this is from DSM

Diagnostic criteria for Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder

1. The re-experiencing, following cessation of use of a hallucinogen, of one or more of the perceptual symptoms that were experienced while intoxicated with the hallucinogen (e.g., geometric hallucinations, false perceptions of movement in the peripheral visual fields, flashes of colors, intensified colors, trails of images of moving objects, positive afterimages, halos around objects, macropsia, and micropsia.
2. The symptoms in Criterion A cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
3. The symptoms are not due to a general medical condition (e.g., anatomical lesions and infections of the brain, visual epilepsies) and are not better accounted for another mental disorder (e.g., delirium, dementia, Schizophrenia) or hypnopompic hallucinations.

weak pathologies for the weak
Psyche delia is not for everybody.
"this elitism is totally self-determined."

on other generative lines. Blake was excomulgated from catholic pig-church and I think its hilarius you guys are discusing all this crazyness on a topic that's called "Proverbs of Hell".

GOD's right. churches are churches and christians are christians. Churches have been genocide for everyone with critical thought for centuries. Yet some christians are love incarnate. Christanism I feel, as I have always heard it spoken, is somewhat spiritually weak one some sides; on others its a powerful light speech of love and yore. Tho there is great strength and complexity in Jesus' discourse; people able to learn his truth is a completely different story. Logos Fire ones actually able to are almost never called christians.

:weedman:

 

[GOD]

Who or what is DSM .

You arent reading what i wrote , and you havent read the artikles in wiki that i talked about or the threads i mentioned . I`m not trying to be ofensive . I`m trying to say .....stop ..... think about it..... dont jump to conclusions . Please be neutral , objective and sceptical . I`m sure you dont want to spread anti drug propoganda about things that have been adequately observed , described and explained in a factual way that doesnt make drugs wrongly look negative .

 

[BrainEater]

drugs depend on the user in their effects...

also in the "after"-effects.....

at the same time it is the other way round: the user is mentally dependant on a hallucinogenic drug, because of being "forced" to see the hallucinations...


of course then it must also be said that the user can actively provide the best circumstances for the expected effects (2 words: set & setting) and during the trip influence the "outcome" of the experience, which is basically the same user after the experience.

when i speak of the "same user after the experience", i mean that you are obviously the same user, with the difference of having had the experience the drug induced.

so what is there to say... maybe sometimes the experiences are too intense to be integrated easily by the mind ????

therefore the disorder: too much to handle for the brain at once and hence irregularly perceived patterns... or perceived irregular patterns.....


peace :weedman:

 

[maxfreakout]

Who or what is DSM .

You arent reading what i wrote , and you havent read the artikles in wiki that i talked about or the threads i mentioned . I`m not trying to be ofensive . I`m trying to say .....stop ..... think about it..... dont jump to conclusions . Please be neutral , objective and sceptical . I`m sure you dont want to spread anti drug propoganda about things that have been adequately observed , described and explained in a factual way that doesnt make drugs wrongly look negative .

DSM is the book that doctor's use which lists all the psychiatric disoders

the fact that psychedelic drugs can cause lasting visual distortion known as HPPD is 100% certain, there isnt a single respectable scientist or psychiatrist who would deny it, there are no other names for it besides HPPD, and it is fairly common among entheogen users

this has nothing whatsoever to do with propaganda, it is about what people who take entheogens actually experience in real life, it isnt negative or positive, it just is

this is what entheogens DO

 

[Nomada]

"this is what entheogens DO"
+1
Mind universe synergised. you produce universe. CClimatology is psychedelic for psychology.

yet I don't feel confortable with DSM. I has so many diseases listed that almost anyone suffers at least 5 types of psychotic behavior.
psychiatric pathology can be very paranoid-any altered state of consciusness is perceived harmful.
Yes, nonetheless, there are consecuences. This is why I have dosed myself more than one time in the whole of my life. WWhen things start getting wieird, smile, the fun has just begun.

 

[GOD]

You still didnt read the things i mentioned .

If you can tell me where i can read "DSM" or the entry about HPPD and the scientific references to it / its diagnosis / the proof ?

Who diagnosed it in you ?

 

[maxfreakout]

If you can tell me where i can read "DSM" or the entry about HPPD and the scientific references to it / its diagnosis / the proof ?

i already posted the HPPD entry from DSM (diagnostic statistical manual), im not sure if DSM is available online but it is the main resource for psychiatry and psychology so it isnt hard to find

there is a whole forum 'HPPD online' about it here:
http://www.hppdonline.com/forum/

here is an erowid trip-report about it:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=8348

and here on erowid is a big list of scientific resources about it:
http://www.erowid.org/references/refs.php?C=HPPD


nowhere on the wikipedia page does it say anything about HPPD not existing, and furthermore the wiki page contains links to a lot of scientific sources talking about it


i dont understand what you are saying, are you claiming HPPD doesnt exist? If this is what you are claiming, all it means is that you havent experienced it yourself, i can say from firsthand experience that it is a real phenomenon arising out of regular entheogen use, and there is a vast amount of scientific literature to confirm that it exists, and i am sure that many people on this forum have experienced it too

 

[maxfreakout]

yet I don't feel confortable with DSM. I has so many diseases listed that almost anyone suffers at least 5 types of psychotic behavior.
psychiatric pathology can be very paranoid-any altered state of consciusness is perceived harmful.

yes i totally agree, psychiatry is fundamentally flawed because of their mistakenly saying that religious experience is pathological (and that is only one flaw among many)

the only reason i quoted DSM was to show GOD that scientists do actually call the condition 'HPPD', there is no other word for it that is widely used by scientists

WWhen things start getting wieird, smile, the fun has just begun.

the shamanic smile

 

[GOD]

I`m sure you didnt read the wiki pages , or didnt read them properly .

I have experienced the same / similar things to what is described as HPPD . But there are other definitions of what happens and the reasons why than the negative , self diagnosed one ? you are spreading .

As for forums , there are forums all over the net , that doesnt prove anything .

The erowid link is about something that has been described many times and not as HPPD . And as you said there are people out there who get the same / similar effects that havent taken drugs .

The erowid page that you say offers scientific evidence is full of pseudo scientific anti drug propoganda from people and organisations that are paid by the american government . They are still talking about non existent flashbacks , one of the false inventions of the anti drug lobby .

I`ve said my point of view , i see no point in carrying on talking as you seem to me to be pushing anti drug propoganda , self diagnosis , and ignoring neutrality , sceptisism and objectivity .

Maybe you / someone could ask about it on the MAPS forum and get us information from a group of people who dont have an interest in making drugs look negative .

 

[restin]

But HDDP is only a name for what people live trough, like Max did...

GOD, you refer to homepages, why don't you explain yourself what you mean? What do you see as the flashbacks that Max calls HDDP?

so what is there to say... maybe sometimes the experiences are too intense to be integrated easily by the mind ????

Yes, but that difficulty of the mind can still be called HDDP? It is only a name...

 

[maxfreakout]

I`m sure you didnt read the wiki pages , or didnt read them properly . .

i read the whole page beginning to end, it is thorough and informative, it gives all the information you need, and not once does it say anything about HPPD not existing

I have experienced the same / similar things to what is described as HPPD . But there are other definitions of what happens and the reasons why than the negative , self diagnosed one ? you are spreading .

there are no other definitions, when you take entheogens on a regular basis, there is a strong tendency for the visual effects to persist, this is HPPD

im not saying anything negative, im just stating the truth, HPPD is real, there is no other name for it besides HPPD, it is fully acknowledged by science and psychiatry, there isnt a single scientist who would say it doesnt exist

The erowid link is about something that has been described many times and not as HPPD . And as you said there are people out there who get the same / similar effects that havent taken drugs .

the erowid link is about HPPD only, if you have visual distortions not caused by psychedelic drugs, then that is not HPPD, the term 'HPPD' only applies to visual distortions caused by psychedelics

The erowid page that you say offers scientific evidence is full of pseudo scientific anti drug propoganda from people and organisations that are paid by the american government . They are still talking about non existent flashbacks , one of the false inventions of the anti drug lobby .

no it contains a large, mixed range of sources, none of which are pseudoscientific, one of which is the Heffter institute, whoch is where Dennis Mckenna works

and flashbacks are completely real too, but they arent as common as HPPD is, i have experienced flashbacks also

Maybe you / someone could ask about it on the MAPS forum and get us information from a group of people who dont have an interest in making drugs look negative .

maps have researched a huge amount into HPPD, check this link:
http://www.maps.org/old_forum/1998/msg00220.html

 

[maxfreakout]

What do you see as the flashbacks that Max calls HDDP?

flashbacks and HPPD are 2 distinct phenomena

HPPD is a lasting, persistent residual psychedelic visual effect in ordinary, undrugged consciousness

Flashbacks are a momentary occurence which only lasts a few seconds, where a psychedelic experience seems to all of a sudden occur during undrugged consciousness

both are real, experienced by many people, and thoroughyl documented scientifically

 

[restin]

OK, I want to reply something on Christianity.

GOD's right. churches are churches and christians are christians. Churches have been genocide for everyone with critical thought for centuries. Yet some christians are love incarnate. Christanism I feel, as I have always heard it spoken, is somewhat spiritually weak one some sides; on others its a powerful light speech of love and yore. Tho there is great strength and complexity in Jesus' discourse; people able to learn his truth is a completely different story. Logos Fire ones actually able to are almost never called christians.

Logos Fire?

Christianity in its profane way has nothing to do with spirituality, God.

It is a teaching of this world, not afterlife or whatever. It is like buddhism, rather a way of living than of dying.

Yes it is a teaching of love. That's what I wrote.

The problem is, it is fertile ground for the Church.

"Churches have been genocide for everyone with critical thought for centuries."

Christianity is genocide for critical thought! I explained it quite clearly, with the sheep and the apple.

Christianity as itself is neither good nor evil. The problem is, it doesn't work out. Although we still have christian traditions, we stopped being Christians in the 18th Century, when the Ego was born in the plebs.

Christianity is like communism -> Doesn't work.

We were social animals until the 18th Century and we changed in 100 years, historically a VERY short time. What does that say about humans?

Change the word christianity for the word humanity , churches , religeons , society , the system , capitalism , comunism , democracy , crowley , RAW , astrology , tarot , witches or 2012 ..............

What the heck do you want to say?

 

[psm]

Hitler was a catholic and he wasnt all bad .

Just for the historical facts:
Hitler was raised catholic (like every other Austrian at that time). But he was Atheist most of his life, until he was indoctrinated, he was a Prophet and a God himself.
Hitler was a puppet. A poor stupid artist with only one testicle, who had a knack for public speaking, had developed a lot of hate for being dispised and was easy to manipulate.
The official well-standing with the vatican was a political need for both sides.