Stan Grof's LSD Psychotherapy

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Below are some passages from LSD Psychotherapy by Stanislav Grof (I'm halfway through it now) that I found significant.

Numerous observations made during clinical research with LSD strongly suggests that the personalities of the therapist, the co-therapist, the sitters, or any persons present are factors of paramount significance in structuring the content, course, and outcome of psychedelic sessions. Probably the single most important element determining the nature of an LSD experience is the feeling of safety and trust on the part of the experient. This is, of course, critically dependent on the presence or absence of the guide, his or her personal characteristics, and the nature of the relationship between the subject and this person. It is absolutely essential for the successful course and outcome of an LSD session that the subject lets go of his or her usual defenses and surrenders to the psychedelic process. This usually requires the possibility of relegating the reality testing and all the decisions on practical matters to a trusted sitter.

A person taking a psychedelic drug alone cannot really fully abandon control at the crucial moments of the experience, because part of him or her has to continue playing the role of reality-oriented judge and sitter. However, total surrender is absolutely essential for completing the experience of ego death, one of the crucial steps in the LSD process.

This made me wonder to what extent psychonauts are really capable of benefiting fully from the "alone in silent darkness" method. Wouldn't the presence of a trusted sitter be desirable or essential for even the most experienced psychonaut?

The following passage didn't raise any questions, I just post it here because it seems to summarize one of the basic premises of high dose Psychedelic Therapy. For an explanation of words like 'transpersonal' and 'perinatal' read the book.

In the preparation for an LSD session, we also discuss symptoms and life problems. However, the therapist tries to relate to whatever is available of the healthy core of the patient's personality. The basic message is that there is a deep positive potential in every human being that is hidden behind the symptoms, however overwhelming and crippling they mights seem. The traumatic past is seen as a complex of factors and situations that has alienated the patient from his real self.

The image of human nature on which this approach is based is closer to Hindu philosophy than to Freudian psychoanalysis. Behind the barrier of negative instinctual forces associated with early biographical traumas and the hellish realms of the perinatal matrices there exist vast transpersonal realms of the superconscious mind, and a system of positive universal values not dissimilar to Abraham Maslow's metavalues. In the psychedelic model the human mind is not limited to biographically determined elements of the Freudian unconscious; it has no boundaries or limits and its dimensions are commensurate with those of the entire universe. From this point of view, it is more correct to see human nature as divine than as bestial. Although the specificities of this philosophy are not communicated to the patient as part of the preparation for the sessions, this worldview characterizes the approach of a psychedelic therapist.

What do you think?

 

[Forkbender]

First musing: the paradox.

If you don't need a therapist, you probably don't need therapy. Using LSD for psychotherapy is always in conjunction with a therapist. If you play that role yourself (and I do think it is possible, although it may not be as effective) you indeed have to steer the situation and let the situation lead you at the same time, which is pretty hard. Forming an intention before you begin and taking objects with you on the trip that remind you of the things you want universal consciousness to shine a light on can help significantly, but it is one of the hardest abilities to master. Once you master it, you don't need it for yourself and you can only use it to serve others.

Second musing: what is therapy?

I guess what this text doesn't take into account is the question whether or not you need someone else to heal yourself. This can be translated into whether or not you need a doctor to heal a wound or whether or not you need a guru to become enlightened. I think the majority of people think they need this other person, while in fact they are perfectly capable of doing it themselves, a fact they only realize after they have gone through the experience. A guide can show you where to look, but you have to look, and you have to not look away when you get scared or sad.

Third musing: ego death.

Ego death is a much talked about subject in the psychedelic scene. I don't really believe in it, because often we see a resurrection the moment the drug is out the system. Ego is a very modern and Western concept (with possible Hindu/Buddhist parallels) that has enchanted generations of 'spiritual' people. In many Chinese systems of thought or unsystemic thought there is no such concept. Ego death is a step further. It silently assumes that there is such a thing as ego, while this has never been proven, only postulated by a sex-obsessed Austrian with an addictive personality. It assumes that this ego can die and that the psychedelic experience lets it die (momentarily). I doubt that. If there is such a thing as an ego, what sets it apart from the psychedelic state?

Fourth musing: psychotherapy.

It's a corrupt business and while it can help people learn to deal with their problems, it rarely motivates them to solve them. The therapist-patient relationship is often aimed at continuation of the status quo instead of a breakthrough. Psychedelic therapy can probably help a lot, although there are a lot of ifs and buts. For one thing, the therapist would need to know exactly where to go and where not to go. S/he would need to be empathic and able to keep a distance. The patient would need to trust the therapist more than s/he trusts him/herself.

 

[GOD]

I had less than no dificulty letting go when i was on my own . I realy liked it . When i did some serious sessions other people just ankered me . Take it , close your eyes and bye bye . For me it was always a relief to get away from this world / this reality .

When its someone who has a little fear , maybe a beginer or when its suposed to be a therapy i can imagine that someone else , a good sitter or a therapist could be usefull ....... but i dont need anyone else as i`m not scared of "it" or myself . Luckily i can also put my trust in people who could help me . First you have a chat and then if the person seems OK and is a professional i wouldnt have any trouble with that either . I have no secrets , nothing i feel i need to hide and theres nothing i wont talk about .

Turn it round and think of meditation , one doesnt need anyone else there . Maybe to find the way at first but for me its a bit like a kid with a teddybear..... i dont need one .

I think trips are something you have to just do . Take a good dose and face yourself . All this shit with takeing a small dose and working up is crap . All that happens is people start small and stay small . Get your stuff from someone you trust and when your head rebells just tell it to shutv the fuck up . Tell yourself its a thing people have done for thousands of years and they all came back . If your frightened either you master it or it masters you . Thats part of it , if you get frightened either you face it and ignore it or it will grow and take you over .

Ego death . For me most people havent got a clue what they are talking about when they say they had one . Most of the people i have seen tripping have exactly the oposite . They dont become warmer , more loveing , careing people . If one takes a big dose it can crack away all the greed and self centered thinking and make you feel just as important as absolutely any part of the universe . A piece of shit , a leaf on a tree , a hair in a comb or a piece of dust under the bed . Ego death for me means stopping thinking in words , stoping anylysing and stoping thinking like your the center of something . Ego death means just being . Its like the view being part of the view being aware of itself . Not like something seperate looking at it and / or thinking about it .

Psychotherapy . For the people its good for its good but i`ve never seen or heard of any psychotherapy that was there to help a person be themselves or fullfill their potential . Mostly it just getting people to tow the line , be good citizens and thats defined by other people and social norms . Its like telling someone that they have to fit a patern . Good people go to work , clean their teeth , comb their hair , think jesus and gandi were good . It stops people being individuals and stops them from thinking for themselves . I understand that theres not much difference between a person thats been taught or has taught themselves to live like a robot or a robot thats taught to live like a person . But there is a diference . The diference is freedom , doing the things that we do because we want to , because we know its in our best interests and good for us . I dont think that that can be taught , its something a person has to think about and learn for themselves . Theres no point if people do it because they have to pretend to anyone , like a court or a doctor that they will be good little robots and will play the game and pretend that they are not who they are . Either a person is free or his whole life is an act . A cage thats been forced on him . a dangerous one . One that often causes a person to loose control , explode and fuck themselves and others .

No one needs a teddy or a guide or a god . Thats just like kids that need their dad and mom . I dont need anyone to take my responsibility for me , no one to hold my hand , no one to blame and no one to believe in . For me most of the people who say they are religeous or believe in god just need someone to blame , someone to take their own responsibility for them..... mostly because they are shit scared of dying .

Its a bit like someone worrying that they killed the bulb when they turned the light off . Like people being afraid of the dark . Who gives a fuck if theres an after life or rebirth . Heres here and gone is gone . Why should anyone worry about it or care about it . Just try to do your best now . Learn to live with yourself and fuck dieing . Does the thought of haveing a shit bother you ? Do you cry when you drop a turd and flush it away ?

Sorry if that doesnt make much sense or is off topic but its the things that came into my mind after reading the thread .

 

[Ahuaeynjxs]

Oh man... you just caused me to think about having compassion (or is it the million of bacteria which I am mixing with clorine and deadly stuff) for my own poop, shit sticks in your head you know, thats why I'm usually careful about what I read on the internet

NooOooO ! I ruined my own perfection...

I think if the psychotherapist does not also do a similar dose of LSD and is mature enough to handle it, there will be ENORMOUS repercussions on the patients mind, beyond what is imaginable, and of enough magnitude to switch epigenetic markers.

Which is to say psychedelics do not only alter the ego, but our relationship with AC current (by inflating consciousness beyond its harmonic range), which is our GOD and our most solid fixture as a society, so to speak ; tesla was fully aware of that, he favored AC current not only for practical and economy matters, also because it was alternating between two polarities, he effectively made it impossible to beleive in ONE creator principle without being seriously unbalanced ! Thats why some people went as far as killing animals in public with AC just to prove it was dangerous (like direct current cannot kill, riiight), he did upset the whole balance and signification of all monotheistic (and dimished greatly polytheistic importance) religions, right then, and lived !

It's amazing how we forget so many great minds just because it changes our way of thinking radically to even accept such people existed and interacted in society ; because this gives them a certain level of acceptance ?

 

[Forkbender]

What?!?

&

Welcome back!

 

[Nomada]

Sorry if that doesnt make much sense or is off topic but its the things that came into my mind after reading the thread .

Nonsense. Both are impossible at this hour of night. Thank you.

Ego death for me means stopping thinking in words , stoping anylysing and stoping thinking like your the center of something . Ego death means just being . Its like the view being part of the view being aware of itself . Not like something seperate looking at it and / or thinking about it .

Can you have both [thinking, analising, and being]? The act of observing, does it imply taking distance from the object of your process? If so, can you take advantage of it beyond of what is usually managed: egotism?


...


My only need for a sitter so far has been getting too far away from reality and falling into a big hole and hurting my elbow. On big doses.

When tripping with another human I fall into energetic, social, sexual, playful nature. This is often desirable and has no less space for learning than being alone, it serves its own purpose. Nonetheless I often find myself distracted by the presence of beautiful eyes staring at me and then, I prefer a permanent barrier.

...

Hello Beautiful...

 

[1comma4butanediol]

Ego death. (. . .) If one takes a big dose it can crack away all the greed and self centred thinking and make you feel just as important as absolutely any part of the universe. A piece of shit , a leaf on a tree, a hair in a comb or a piece of dust under the bed. Ego death for me means stopping thinking in words, stoping analysing and stoping thinking like your the centre of something. Ego death means just being. Its like the view being part of the view being aware of itself. Not like something seperate looking at it and / or thinking about it .

SWIM really loves that description. Especially the part put in bold. SWIM took a good hefty dose of mushrooms once and went exactly there. At first SWIM was fighting it trying to keep control. Then, SWIM lost the fight and landed right in the place you describe. It was an enlightening and eye opening place to be, and SWIM will always remember that place and that perspective. SWIM wishes everyone could reach that spot, at least once in their lives. It changed SWIM in a permanent way, for the better.

 

[GOD]

The mothership must have landed again and the fuckers forgot to pick me up.........

High Wotsit !!!! Good you came out of your self imposed exile and are blessing us with your insights on life , the universe and total insanity again . Hows your back , teeth and the doobrys behind your ears ? Maybe you were a Vulkan in your last life and were born in this life with a bit of alien holographic spiral fractal ear DNA and your ears are rebelling and trying to become pointy ? Did you see the new startrek film ? Is it better than transpersonal therapy or do you need LSD therapy after watching it ? And if you did what do you think ? I`m sure stan Grof was / is a fan too .

 

[GOD]

Oh , yes , sorry . I`m a big fan of the idea of psychedelic therapy . I think even giveing it to kids , in the right circumstances , would / could be and amazeing tool , cure and help to society . BUT there would have to be a lot of work done selecting and training therapists as we dont want to push people into other peoples boxes and create little sociably aceptable clones . Its a dilema ..... we`d have to change society to do it and the only way to change society is to do such a therapy......

 

[Brugmansia]

Subjectively. 500 ug (I know it's exactly accurate due to the form I used - liquid) in my own room with a bed, open window, closed curtains. Strawberry's, juice and water on the night table, me completely naked and showered. Tub to piss in. Towell. Small breakfast. Kicking off with the acid at 4 PM while I woke up at 3 PM. Cleaned room and, me having a bit of an empty mindset on purpose.

I felt my heart shaking after about 20 minutes of ingestion, it went more rapid and rapid and I started to take deep breaths of comfort. About 90 minutes later I more or less lost sense of time completely and music turned into penetrating waves and I couldn't follow the songs anymore, nor I could keep recognition of passages I listen to everyday. Music disturbed, it 'touched' my skin and overloaded the processes in my brain.

All that flew through me was a rich need to lay down without music. Looking through my room actually was suprisely much normal, but I ended up staring at objects with a blank face, and saw how such an object had been there in my room for my entire life. But mostly it were uncontrolled thoughts and general the trip was too heavy here to get any attached emotion through as a whole.

I felt my inner perspective displayed as on a monitor instead of being aware of my interior. There was no flower power, only these grey and transparant patterns. And crystal fractalised tails and ropes. Only yellow and purple sometimes appeared as colours in the lines.

Now, the most profound part of the whole trip. Occasionally imagination went to another place, and with certain set ups, I went back to past events and could remember notorious details which I had forgotten. Like buying a drink at a certain party years ago, remembering the girl very detailed who served me that drink. Or which jacket a friend wore years ago during a certain meet up, the exact words we exchanged, his facial expressions. All such things as in short vivid films. At these stages, I couldn't portray my own face anymore. But I didn't cared either. My nerves responded pretty much actual to this all.

I felt my heart pumping and sometimes shaking, the micro electricity went to the middle of my head through a connection line it seemed. It all came out of a little core within the middle of the heart pump. In the head the electricity turned out into information with signals which I could ignore or accept to perform an act or thought construction. I realised this constantly happens and it's this energy which controls my behaviour 24 hours a day. Where the very first electricity during each heart pulse came from was a mystery to me, it was just there out of nothing created out of every beat.

Going off my bed, especially sitting for a while, resulted in impulses to put on my clothes. For instance, I looked at the room and I associated this view after waking up with getting ready for work. Then I walked over to the closet to get some boxers, realising the perversion in my demeanour, then walking back to bed to lay down.

Cars outside did had influence on me being content, I just realised what was going on on the street while seperated by a wall. This did had direct influence on my body. I was trying to comprehend how such a long winded sound outside could happen in only a few seconds.

So yeah, there was something more I could have eliminated to get even deeper. But I'm alone in this and only have 1 house. The setting was a must for sure! I think Grov is right, if I didn't had to take responsibility for myself, I literally could accept losing it for a 100%. I'm sure 625 ug will do that trick to me, as well as an absolute non-worrying mindset. But not with a sitter, only with a lover after having a long-term trusted relationship for 10 years or so, she being into this all as well herself. Seems unlikely. So I'll proceed all alone as I have always done from the very first beginning.

I better mention also that after 8 hours my mind was tripped out, but I remained another good 6 hours very sharp and stimulated and this 'loaded' feeling would still have been a very decent acid trip if I didn't had picked up the tolerance from the first 8 hours.

 

[Ahuaeynjxs]

Thanks...

I'm doing better physically thank you, I am unsure as to what doobrys are, but my ears are fine, very round and the lower soft lobe is detached and actually... cold.

I have not seen the movie yet... I'm getting tired of the ways movie are these days, but since it's star trek and Leonard Nimoy is in it, I'll sure get around to it !

I am in a pretty dark mindset right now, so please do not joke around, you know me and my repulsion to jokers and such pyramidal archetypes (I know, paradoxal) ; I know it's hard to ask for coherence after only one message, but it's as you all please.

One of my best friends is heavily medicated after being hit by a drunk driver, this is the 4th of my close aquaintances that get hit by a drunk driver right after I talk to them intimately about what I am all about... she is the only one who actually survived and she was extreemly lucky too, if such a thing actually exists anymore.

I am not only disillusioned, I am loosing tolerance, and far from brigning this load asking for help I stand in tall defiance to all of this. Try your LSD somewhere with NO electricity, and give me news about it brothers and sisters, light a warm fire and feel where I begin and where I end... I am still looking forward for psychonauts, but not electric wave surfers, I am just tired, very tired, please forgive my preponderance. This might pass over as just another rational message, I don't mind, just caring for whatever community we might have started at some point... did you notice that after Pariah made his strike against me, he was never heard from again ? I have over 10 such occurings as of late, some have been positive, some negative, but when I go, they disapear without a trace.

They are following me everywhere, testing my weaknesses and elaborating on my eventual self-breaking in some dire circumstances, tears burn them all as they are, wannabes ; and I love them so much for being intense about trying ; if I could I would teach them all one by one how to be as I am, for the rest of my life but they have their own war to fight now and not on this earth. Judge me as a paranoiac if that makes you feel comfortable enough to remain sane, as I said this is no matter of consequence to me, I have walked alone long enough to read between your lines.

 

[restin]

what about electric radiation? As I am aware, you'd need to go veeery far to get rid of this.

 

[mysticwarrior]

what about electric radiation? As I am aware, you'd need to go veeery far to get rid of this.

Hmmmm, maybe a ticket to some far away rain forest?

 

[magickmumu]

In psychedelic therapy the therapist ussualy stays sober himself. He may act as a sort of guide or sitter. He may help the subject focus by using certain themes.

On the other hand there is psychedelic shamanism.
The shaman guiding the patients/participants usually takes psychedelic,s themselves

 

[Ahuaeynjxs]

It's not so much the radiation as to how our body sympathetically identifies the frequency of the light to comfort, and also to security. A definite trap for the mind, one that requires no effort for the perpetrators.

When the minds lets go off this false anchor, lsd and shrooms really expands consciousness in a different way, it's more flowing, more friendly. And even with awareness of the trap, the mind develops its own intricacies to prevent the consciousness from being freed, it's inevitable because its the nature of demonism, magnetic micro-gaps in consciousness.

 

[restin]

therefore it is not the electric currency being near but rather being perceived by humans/the tripper?

 

[Ahuaeynjxs]

Indeed that is my perspective, so the further away you are the better, but also the less the better... if the psychedelic can higher vibrational frequencies, you do not want anything with sympathetic effects (like repetitive sounds and lights) to hamper that ability, but its mainly because in our modern brain, these frequencies are so prevalent that we deeply identify to them... they create a kind of matrix so to speak vibrating with silica (quartz) which is the main component of the upper crust (sand), because when we see something, its all electrical signals, so then we also imagine the thing to remember it so it reflects and thats where the connection is made to that matrix, like a phone call to our higher self that gets intercepted.

 

[IJesusChrist]

Ahua, you are talking upon a pedestal.

Do you know this is all true?

A man coming for therapy does not want to break free from everything, see "God", and understand all there is to know - the man simply wants his symptoms to subside, to be 'normal' before his symptoms developed.

You bring a man in the jungle, give him 650ug of LSD and talk about the stars, how his ego is getting in the way, and how to fix the problem. Then you say you're doing fine, you're cured! And you send him back to his cubicle.

To bring one away from technology, and start labelling quarts and harmonics of electronics as bad, you will soon find yourself very deep in your own dwelling. You can embrace ancient knowledge, and accept that technology is unnecessary, or you can invision the future with it. It is your choice, it is your fight, but who is going to win this fight, you or the masses of reproduction?

Technology is a luxury, you are on the interenet using a luxury instead of mailing, instead of biking, instead of setting up group discussions.

I'm naked, and going to take a shower now. Strawberries are delicious.

 

[????????]

hello Ahua, i hope your friend gets well. if i catch your drift right, you're saying our modern urban environment diminishes our experiences while we trip and it all happens unconsciously? i think that doing it in some far out cave or forest or something would be a recipe for one hell of a experience but: it has it's traps because then one might be inclined to return to society feeling like some kind of holy man (or even worse.... enlightened)

what is electric radiation?

hey brugs, i really like the way you describe your experiences. i don't know why but i understand your mindset. it's like i'd do the same preparations and musings if i were in your position. and you seem to hold more or less my same view about having a sitter, ideally, it would be the long time lover you described, but since i don't have such i prefer solo as well.

i think someone needs a sitter as long as said someone thinks s/he needs a sitter...

 

[GOD]

A sitter can be good but i think a beginer who thinks it better to have one should be carefull he doesnt get used to haveing one and then need it . Sometime one has to cut the umbilical cord or one becomes a big time pussy .