Indigo children...

[HeartCore]

thats mega interesting
is that theory freudian? i think i've heard similar thing before
it makes alot of sense

No, it's definitely not Freudian. It's much closer to Jung's ideas. But it's basically the more recent humanistic or transpersonal psychology in a nutshell, specifically as explained by LSD researcher and psychiatrist Stanislav Grof. You can find an interesting and relevant chapter from one of his books in this topic.

Have you read 'the Holotropic mind' written by Stan Grof already'? I have this on my shelve for over a decade and read it a few times. I find it one of the most amazing books regarding psychology (and psychedelics). I've read most of Jung's work in my early twenties and I agree that Grof's vision is much closer to Jung than Freud and there are a lot of references to Jung in his books. What I really loved about this book/study, is the scientific take on it as that patients would describe certain situations during birth under the influence of a psychedelic and Grof would find those reflected in complications in the records of the hospital where this patient was born.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Have you read 'the Holotropic mind' written by Stan Grof already'? I have this on my shelve for over a decade and read it a few times.

Cool! No, I haven't read that one yet. I just finished reading Psychology of the Future, and before that LSD Psychotherapy. In the Dutch section of this forum you can find my translation of the introduction of Psychology of the Future, and some correspondance I had with Stan. I'm translating a couple of paragraphs in the train every day, or whenever I have an evening to myself. Isn't it weird that currently none of his books are available in Dutch? Only one book was translated 18 years ago, and is now out of print.

What I really loved about this book/study, is the scientific take on it as that patients would describe certain situations during birth under the influence of a psychedelic and Grof would find those reflected in complications in the records of the hospital where this patient was born.

Yes, I've read examples of that too. In general he doesn't just present theories. Everything he writes is based on what he has encountered during his decades of clinical work with psychedelics, including personal experiences. Albert Hofmann remarked that "If I am the father of LSD, Stan Grof is the godfather. Nobody has contributed as much as Stan for the development of my problem child."

 

[Brugmansia]

There are solutions, but they involve areas that are stubbornly ignored by mainstream psychology and other sciences.

Contraction is might, hence the heroes in kids animations, the controllers put their sore erected dicks through as our final destination which we must deify. The current mainstream psychology tells victims not to give in to their intuitive sensory but tries to blind them in order to assure they proceed with striving for the ultimate tightness. They have the potential to be so strong, so they must lighten up. :roll:

I see sjamanistic/spiritual parenthood, nutrition, exercise, psychedelics and the domestic life as the most significant factors of developing integral susceptibility and therefore, a fullfilling life with happiness which is the remedy for many psychological disabilities which have become self-evident in our society, ignorant of the simple life with it's hyper sensivity. Which is being truly alive.

If you want to live with the susceptibility of a old sjamanistic tribe which I believe is extremly healthy, I think it is essential to develop tenability as well with our modern numbed culture. Otherwise there's no elementary balance. If done that way, extreme sensivity without fragility can be realized.

I don't expect a radical re-structure of psychological therapy in our daily model, but the sjamanistic knowledge should be nourished for the bigger minority who's aware of what's possible.

 

[Crimzen]

What I really loved about this book/study, is the scientific take on it as that patients would describe certain situations during birth under the influence of a psychedelic and Grof would find those reflected in complications in the records of the hospital where this patient was born.

I'm yet to do much study into psychedelic psychological research but this seems like a very stable observation
as soon as the net gets fixed at my place i'm going to do some more reading into Grof

 

[BrainEater]

wow this all sounds kind of interesting!!

brugmansia i guess u hit the nail on the head!

i agree.. we got to realize we are brothers and sisters and not believe the shit that some groups of people want to make everyone believe.

i mean yeah society is often sick these days in many places, but maybe we need to see that its just the natural reaction to what is happening and that everything can be good too, yet before something can change we need to accept it and not fight it?

i also watched a video of this stanislav grof ... i guess i did have some prejudices and it seems he knows what he is doing and seems to be very nice also.

peace

 

[Forkbender]

The enormous amount of scientific, psychological and spiritual information available makes lots of children develop in very interesting ways

So, yes, any child born after the sixties has the option of becoming an enlightened being very quickly

Does enlightenment depend on the availability of these types of information? I don't think so, but I'm not sure what you hint at, so please elaborate your view.

 

[cockknocker]

My brother was blue when he was born. Not indigo, but close enough.

So he had the experience of impending death by asphyxiation. If he takes a high dose of a psychedelic, he may have experiences, physical sensations or visions of strangulation, suffocation or drowning, ideally followed by the ego-death and rebirth experience. In his visions he may have what seem to be memories of past life experiences involving suffocation. In his sex life (prior to the psychedelic ego-death and rebirth experience), he may have developed an interest in choking and strangulation. If he ever contemplates suicide (again, prior to a succesful psychedelic experience), it's most likely going to involve asphyxiation. If he becomes a serial killer, he may wish to strangle his victims.

And all of this just focuses on the asphyxiation. A prolonged delivery can generate all kinds of other behavioral patterns, like depression, aggression, anxiety etc., as well as various physical problems.

I'm just using your brother as a hypothetical example here. Anyone who has had either a difficult or a anaesthetized birth (i.e. all of us) will have to resolve this trauma sooner or later. This is essential for personal happiness and world peace.

Wow. Thats pretty interesting. I don't think he'd do a high dose, let alone a normal dose of a psychedelic though.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Does enlightenment depend on the availability of these types of information? I don't think so, but I'm not sure what you hint at, so please elaborate your view.

To answer this I'd have to define enlightenment first. Unfortunately I don't have time to write today, and no internet tomorrow, so I'll elaborate next Thursday.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

From my vantage point, the relationship between information and enlightenment is completely obvious. Without the right information, a person becomes dogmatic rather than broadminded, religiously rather than spiritually interested, a drunkard rather than a psychonaut, a professional athlete rather than a yogi.

When my father grew up, there weren't many books around about yoga, psychedelics, meditation, transpersonal psychology, quantum physics, hyperdimensional physics, ecology etc. Only a decade later the first books were being translated and published, and many more are available today. When I grew up about three decades later, I could go to the library and find Food of the Gods, books by Huxley, and there were programs on TV about reincarnation, the theories of Jung, there were health food stores around etc. I grew up to be a person far less destructive to himself and to his environment, and eventually much more in touch with healing energies and the divine.

Kids growing up today have Wikipedia at their disposal, and can join psychedelic webcommunities like Psychonaut.com. They can choose between all kinds of yoga, martial arts, and other meditative practices. They can have their short experiences of enlightenment (the psychedelic experience) leading to the larger experience of enlightenment (living a harmonious and spiritually progressive life).

If ignorance leads to destruction and stupid drug laws, it could be said that ignorance is related to darkness. Since information or knowledge leads to solutions, healing and harmony, we could say it is related to light (as in many spiritual metaphores. En-light-enment, then, is always dependent on the know-how or knowledge (i.e. information) of subjects like ecology, health, spirituality etc. For me the word "enlightenment" represents not just a personal achievement of nirvana, or a short burst of blissful comprehension, but attaining a mode of being that is conducive to peace and prosperity on Earth, and helps as many people as possible get in touch with their inner core, their true self.

If information regarding the developmental stages of a child, and the needs related to them, is missing in a family or society, parents will harm their children, and those children will become harmful to the world. They will not utilize their human body for realizing who they truly are, and they will not endeavor very much to keep it healthy, or even alive. But if information regarding the needs of the baby, toddler, infant or teenager is known, parents will act more appropriately and children will grow up with a healthy sense of self-esteem, as well as self-control, modesty, and an inner sense of joy, which they spread around as they go through their life, happily exploring the world, learning about other cultures, other types of spirituality etc.

In India and some other countries there are some persons who don't read or even talk, and many people consider them enlightened. Whatever they are, they're not very involved with global affairs. Thus their example of enlightenment is completely irrelevant for us, who know about the precarious state of affairs as far as pollution of the environment, arms race and religious fanaticism are concerned. I even doubt they (the famous ones: the babas, ammas, yogis, swamis, maharsis, bhagvans, lamas, roshis etc.) are truly as enlightened as some of the more educated (past & future) psychonauts struggling in the West.

 

[Forkbender]

Well, yes and no. I think knowledge can be misused just as well as used. Genetics is a fabulous field of science, but you can either use it to understand disease and suffering and alleviate that or create concentration camps in which you put everyone without pure genes. So knowledge alone is blind without compassion/love. This compassion doesn't depend on knowledge. Maybe it is the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

Another thing: availability of information does not mean that this information is understood properly or that it can be used. You would probably agree with me that reading about a psychedelic experience cannot replace undergoing the experience and that information can be helpful in avoiding some traps, but that it only works if your interpretation of this information is accurate.

All in all I would say that enlightenment is based on how you process and interpret information, not with information per se.

 

[Brugmansia]

I have always been quite cautious with the entry of information to my internal heart, which is intended to accommodate the palpable feelings of psychedelic experiences in a frame of language. This conversion to me is exactly the manufacture form which closes the original source and distants me from what I belief is intellectual awareness through an integral subjective perception disconnected from purpose.

Even though the moulding might be written with great honesty and diligence, it's done through a non-autonomous identity of a sailor which is not me.

On the other hand if others feel the need for a language code to shed some more desirable light on their sensorial system, then that's just as real if it helps them with navigating the appropriate life course which really corresponds with their identity within.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

It not's a matter of reading versus not reading. We all read, or absorb information through other means. The question is: what? Good information or faulty information? Poignant information or trivial information? Beneficial information or destructive information?

knowledge alone is blind without compassion/love. This compassion doesn't depend on knowledge. Maybe it is the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

Compassion and love are definitely dependent on knowledge, or wisdom, for example on the part of the parents of the person experiencing the compassion or love. In any case it always involves information. "Knowledge alone is blind without compassion/love" is somewhat of an awkward statement, because by definition genuine knowledge is never without love or compassion.

 

[Forkbender]

where's the love & compassion in 2 + 3 = 5 ?

And what is genuine knowledge?

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

2 + 3 = 5 is very basic information. Take it to more advanced levels, and the love and compassion will come shining through.

Genuine knowledge does not compel one to create concentration camps.

 

[Forkbender]

2 + 3 = 5 is very basic information. Take it to more advanced levels, and the love and compassion will come shining through.

Please give an example in which love and/or compassion are embedded in the knowledge.

Genuine knowledge does not compel one to create concentration camps.

:?

But what is it?

 

[magickmumu]

Why indigo childeren. Why not indigo people.
I think it´s because childeren still have all these opportunity´s
they are like a symbol and a promise of what can become of man.
I tend to think of indigo childeren as a archetype more than a actual generation.

I am more of a blue boy myself.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Please give an example in which love and/or compassion are embedded in the knowledge.

For example, there's a person who used a variation on the digits you mentioned (namely Phi) to create an EEG device that is called the heart tuner, and is said to create emotional coherence and empathy ("brain ánd heart-intelligence!").

Knowledge of comparative religion helps mankind grow out of separative religious fanaticism, thus making more room for genuinely loving exchanges and compassionate acts.

Knowledge of the psyche has allowed us to understand the real dynamics underlying antisocial and criminal behaviour, which in turn allows us to experience true compassion for everyone, including murderers, rapists, terrorists, politicians etc.

But what is it?

The way I use the word, it refers to information that is correct. "The Earth is flat" isn't genuine knowledge. It's obviously more correct to say "The Earth is shaped like a sphere, but is perceived as flat." We know so much more now than mankind knew a century ago: both modern discoveries and ancient texts are to our disposal now. Certainly not everyone will make use of all this information, but those who want to, can progress very quickly, and go very far. That's all I wanted to say.

 

[Forkbender]

I get what you say, but all I want to point out is that the knowledge that was used to create the heart tuner could also be used for other purposes, comparative religion can be used to emphasize differences and knowledge of the psyche has put generations of kids on ritalin (which is just the tip of the iceberg). The examples you give come with compassion included, and I think the latter is key in whether or not the knowledge becomes wisdom or not. Knowledge alone doesn't inspire compassion or love within me. Think of a fundamentalist: he isn't open to knowledge (there is no wish to get to know other points of view, no love for the unknown) and therefore he doesn't understand what it is about. This openness to new things and old things you didn't know before comes prior to knowledge. And it is precisely this openness that enables personal/spiritual growth.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

This openness to new things and old things you didn't know before comes prior to knowledge. And it is precisely this openness that enables personal/spiritual growth.

Yes, but that openness we learn from our parents and the culture we grow up in. And they are open because they have exposed themselves to knowledge and liked the result. Openness, love and compassion, these things can only flourish in an environment where information is abundant and flows freely.

I get what you say, but all I want to point out is that the knowledge that was used to create the heart tuner could also be used for other purposes, comparative religion can be used to emphasize differences and knowledge of the psyche has put generations of kids on ritalin (which is just the tip of the iceberg).

Similar to the example you gave of people creating concentration camps, these examples show a lack of knowledge, not a proliferation of knowledge.

The heart tuner is exactly what it is, because it was created on the basis of all the knowledge that is currently available in the fields of mathematics, physics, neurology, biofeedback, spirituality etc. It doesn't exclude important information about the soul, nature or the universe. Hence it is not destructive, but beneficial. Not sickening, but healing. Not producing hate, but love and compassion.

Comparative religion, i.e. all the books, websites and journals that have been published about this, including the really good ones, will not create separatism but point out the similarity between different rituals, scriptures, beliefs, myths etc. Such knowledge leads to genuine interfaith dialogue, mutual respect, and more universal types of religion. It doesn't lead to more religious wars, but to openness, compassion and love.

Knowledge of the psyche is not to be found in those who prescribe ritalin. You know this just as well as I do. Genuine knowledge of the psyche makes professionals prescribe psychedelic compounds, and acknowledges humanity's inherent need for personal experiences of the transcendent, indescribable source.

 

[Forkbender]

Openness, love and compassion, these things can only flourish in an environment where information is abundant and flows freely.

How can information flow freely if there is no openness, love and compassion first?

[/quote]
Similar to the example you gave of people creating concentration camps, these examples show a lack of knowledge, not a proliferation of knowledge.
[/quote]

Any form of knowledge can and will be misused to further the goals of a minority against the majority, unless the knowledge is shared openly with compassion. I think your conception of knowledge is naive in the sense that you don't see that even though we have learned a lot about nature and about ourselves, people aren't necessarily better persons ethically than they were 100 years ago or a 1000 years ago. Besides knowledge, there is interpretation of knowledge and people tend to interpret things in such a way that it fits their view of reality and see it as evidence of their own superiority to others. I don't think knowledge alone can help, I've seen it gone wrong too many times.

I'm beginning to think you have a different conception of knowledge than I do, which for you includes a certain wisdom/overview of all knowledge. It would be good if people had this overview of all knowledge, but in general, they don't and it seems you don't take that into account.