how do you all feel post anti-climax '2012'?

[Finarfin]

Pinchbeck also never predicted that anything would "change in 2012", he just jumped on the bandwagon that Terence Mckenna started. So you are just attacking strawman arguments that noone ever made.

Mckenna's "timewave" theory was strained and artificial, by contrast the "novelty theory" was a very powerful and tightly argued theory.



This is irrelevant to what you said before, where you falsely claimed that someone was predicting that something would "change in 2012". Nobody ever made such a claim afaik, including Mckenna. You are "bashing" yourself, by revealing that you have spent years reading Mckenna but you never understood what he was actually saying. That would make me feel really stupid.



His brother Dennis never came up with any original material of his own relating to psychedelics or 2012 or whatever, everything Dennis ever said about these issues was simply plagiarised from Terence. Dennis spent his entire career riding his brother's coattails and pretending to be more serious and scientific, when in fact he was just bereft of any originality.



you obviously weren't paying much attention while you were reading/listening if you came away with the idea fixed in your head that Mckenna had predicted that something would "change in 2012". I suggest you go back and read/listen more carefully to what Mckenna was actually saying, to clear up your confusion.





You can blindly insist this as much as you like, but you would not be able to substantiate this claim with actual quotes, because it is false. Neither Pinchbeck nor Mckenna (or anyone else afaik) ever predicted that anything would "change in 2012". You have completely misunderstood Mckenna's novelty theory.

If you really believe your own nonsense, try to actually find some quote from Mckenna, Pinchbeck or whoever where they predict that something will change in 2012. You wont be able to find anything because that was never what Mckenna claimed. I pity your ignorance.



Really? Who are these people? Can you give specific examples of people who “predicted shit was going to happen” on 21/12/2012? I somehow doubt it.



Nothing happened on that date, and nobody had ever predicted that something was going to happen on this date. You have completely misunderstood what novelty theory was getting at, it was about the evolution of complexity in the universe, not about some "event" that was "predicted to happen in 2012".



Believed what exactly?

You are a victim of your own lack of intelligence, you have drastically misunderstood the whole point of what you call "the 2012 phenomenon". This says a lot about you, but it says nothing about people like Mckenna or Pinchbeck.

I got the impression that you do not know what you are talking about. You obviously did not pay attention when reading Mckenna.
Mckenna came up with the timewave zero. I personally think this whole idea of the timewave is nonsens.
Mckenna talked about the end of history and the singularity (transcendental object) at the end of time. According to his timewave this would all happen on 21 december 2012. Mckenna had many different scenarios for 2012 none of which came true.

You can try to attack me by questioning my intelligence but i am not impressed by this sort of attacks.
Saying that i am stupid comes from a lack of a solid argument. I know what i am talking about and you obviously don,t know what you are talking about.

The titel of one of pinchbecks books is: 2012 The Return of Quetzalcoatl. In this book Pinchbeck writes about how in 2012 quetzalcoatl will return. Yes pinchbeck jumped up this 2012 bandwagon.
However nothing happened in 2012. there was no return of quetzalcoaltl. Pinchbeck also said that in 2012 was going to be a shift in human evolution. There was no shift in human evolution what so ever. The whole meaning of the word evolution is slow change.
I think pinchbeck jumped on this bandwagon because of sensationalism.
Machine elves, aliens,ufo,s, maya gods returning, timewave, 2012, it,s sensationalism.



It,s a known fact that Mckenna talked a lot about mushrooms, but did not used any mushroom himselfs from 1988 till he died.
Mckenna himself said that he was no guru and that people should not believe what he had to say. Mckenna himself said that people should think for themselves so why should i believe mckenna and copie his ideas blindly.

Pinchbeck wrote a book with the titel: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl.
He features in various television programs on 2012.
He was the moderator of the 2012 tipping point prophets conference.
Pinchbeck claimed that we are experiencing a global shift in evolution or in other words a global consciousness transformation that would reach it,s peak in 2012. Pinchbeck also talked about the galactic alignment.
Pinchbeck as well as Mckenna do not use research or science to back up there claims.
Pinchbeck got his information on 2012 from visions not science. Another 2012 propagandist was David Wilcock. Wilcock got his information from a extradimensional entity. Mckenna got the idea of his timewave zero from a mushroom that talked to him, not from logic science or research.

There is a bit by the late comedian George Carlin that,s all about religion and how religion starts. The bit is called the 10 Commandments.

About 5,000 years ago a bunch of religious and political hustlers got together to try to figure out how to control people and keep them in line. They knew people were basically stupid and would believe anything they were told, so they announced that God had given them some commandments, up on a mountain, when no one was around.

I think it,s the same with 2012. People like wilcock pinchbeck and mckenna get this information not from science they get this information in a vision (on a mountain when no one was around)

So my question is why should i take this shit serious.
I think this sort of stuff is hurting the psychedelic community. I think that non psychedelic users will look at psychedelic users as a bunch of lunatics because of stuff like this.

 

[Illegalsmile]

this is why i say u rely too much on the "logical" man, at least for my taste u do. listen to me seriously, sometimes NONsense is what u need. i've had my struggles with the ego and stuff im not denying that. we all do. im just saying part of this spiritual change is for our mainstream thought process to be more balanced = less relying on scientific and logical understanding. these are all left brain things which is good but only one side of the coin. the other side which is illogical, nonsensical, chaotic is the right brain. it is where art and intuition are found. do u know what intuition is? its when u just know something without the "logical rhetoric" behind it. thats my style dude and im sorry if i appear to not make sense to u. i normally wouldn't sit here typing this stuff but i FEEL that i should. so im still talking to you even though i can see we are on two different angles.

you have been "looking into spirituality" u say. it seems to me your trying to compete or something. i don't think i know more than others or anything like that. i know we are all equals and everyone you meet has something to teach you if you can open your eyes so no i'm not trying to compete with you about authority on the topic of spirituality. im just saying 2012 is not about the date, its about the story and the lessons behind the story.

when i said i felt this in 08 and some people havent yet, i dont mean that makes me better. just like how the people who felt this in the 60's weren't better, we all learn this eventually.

and as for this rhetoric and western philosophy talk; i would think people on a site for psychedelics would have more of an open mind for things that they don't understand at first. yes its as simple as that my nig, if u think it, it is so. if u really believe the moon is made of cheese and no one convinces you otherwise, it will be for you.

 

[Psyche101]

Mckenna came up with the timewave zero. I personally think this whole idea of the timewave is nonsens

I agree, but that is a separate issue from claiming that Mckenna said that "something would change in 2012" when he didn't.

Mckenna talked about the end of history and the singularity (transcendental object) at the end of time. According to his timewave this would all happen on 21 december 2012. Mckenna had many different scenarios for 2012 none of which came true.

According to Mckenna's theory, the "singularity at the end of time" is not an event that occurs in history, rather it is a transcendental object that exists beyond history. This is the major error you are making when you insist that Mckenna said that "something was going to happen in 2012", that is a total misunderstanding of what the "transcendental object at the end of time" is. He suggested 2012 as a possible end-date for his model of time, but he was not rigidly fixed to that particular date. The essential idea is that complexity increases at an exponential rate, not that some event was going to happen in 2012. He never claimed that any particular event was going to happen in 2012, he suggested various scenarios that might be related to a singularity such as the invention of time travel or some kind of alien encounter.

However nothing happened in 2012. there was no return of quetzalcoaltl.

Pinchbeck never said in that book that Quetzlcoatl was going to return in 2012, so again you are attacking a strawman. Or else please can you quote where he said that?

Pinchbeck also said that in 2012 was going to be a shift in human evolution. There was no shift in human evolution what so ever.

Pinchbeck never made any such claim in that book, or else please can you quote where he said that?

It,s a known fact that Mckenna talked a lot about mushrooms, but did not used any mushroom himselfs from 1988 till he died

That is just a nonsense internet rumour that nobody claims authorship of. Several people who knew Mckenna personally say that it is entirely untrue, whereas nobody claims that it is actually true. It only takes a tiny bit of critical thinking and fact-checking to see beyond lies like this. I wonder how many people bought Dennis Mckenna's book just because they thought it would say this, and were sorely dissappointed to discover that Dennis' book makes absolutely no mention of any "mushroom abstinence".

my question is why should i take this shit serious.
I think this sort of stuff is hurting the psychedelic community. I think that non psychedelic users will look at psychedelic users as a bunch of lunatics because of stuff like this.

Your entire rant is purely based on misunderstanding what Terence Mckenna's model was all about, probably due to a lack of intelligence (because it really isnt a very complicated idea, it isnt that hard to understand).

Regarding David Wilcock, he has nothing to do with psychedelia, he is just a new age loon who is totally clueless about drugs and tripping.

 

[Illegalsmile]

and as for psychedelic community vs non-psychedelic community, why are u scared or trying to be like them? maybe they should be like us?

 

[Finarfin]

mckenna sugested various scenarious for 2012. Mckenna took 21 december 2012 as the end date for his timewave.
Pinchbeck said 2012 was going to be a shift in human evolution and the transformation of consciousness. Stop denying these things.

Dennis mckenna had a big influence on terenece his work. Terence acknowledge this himself.
You obviouslly did not read his books or you would know this.

 

[Psyche101]

2012 is not about the date, its about the story and the lessons behind the story.

Exactly, some people seem to have failed to realise this...

mckenna sugested various scenarious for 2012. Mckenna took 21 december 2012 as the end date for his timewave.
Pinchbeck said 2012 was going to be a shift in human evolution and the transformation of consciousness. Stop denying these things.

Dennis mckenna had a big influence on terenece his work. Terence acknowledge this himself.
You obviouslly did not read his books or you would know this.

So you don't have any actual quotes from the people who you have misread and failed to understand. You are just arbitrarily inventing strawmen, putting false words into other people's mouths that they never said. That is a typical indicator of low-intelligence.

Fact checking and critical thinking involve quoting what people have actually said, rather than inventing oversimplified and false claims about what they said.

Terence never said in any of his books or talks that Dennis had made a big influence on his work, that is just another arbitrary invented quote from you. Dennis didnt contribute any ideas of his own into psychedelia, he merely rode on his brother's coattails, a very sad pathetic way to make a name for oneself imo.

 

[Finarfin]

and as for psychedelic community vs non-psychedelic community, why are u scared or trying to be like them? maybe they should be like us?

I am not scared because for me there is no us vs them. This whole us vs them thing is what i have got a problem with.

Novelty theory as mckenna formulated it is a dualistic philosophy. Habbit vs novelty. Us vs them. I do not believe in this sort of dualism. I think it, s nonsense that does not get us anywhere.

Psychedlics for me has not got to do with aliens, machine elves, crap circles, timetravel, or 2012. It, s sensationalis.. americans love sensationalism.

The psychedelic community is not a cult or a sect. It, s not like when you are part of thos community, you have to believe in the community believes and consensus.

Yes i am a psychonaut yes i take psychedelics, but does this mean i need to believe in novelty theory or the timewave?

I think that for some people being in the psychedelic community is like putting on another mask or costume. For some people it gives them an identity. For
Some it, s like being in a subculture like punk for example.

You are wrong about dennis. It was terence himself who admitted his brother had a influence in his work. His brother plays a big part in his book true hallucinations you can not deny this

You say i need to quote . However everybody knows mckenna took 2012 as the end date for his timewave.

What are you trying to say that mckenna, pinchbeck and wilcock never talked about 2012.
Pinchbeck used 2012 a lot in his books and other works you can not deny it.

But let me ask you a question. What do you personally think about the 2012 phenomonon?
You are defending these people why i do not know. But what do you think yourself.

 

[Psyche101]

You are wrong about dennis. It was terence himself who admitted his brother had a influence in his work. His brother plays a big part in his book true hallucinations you can not deny this

Terence never once said (or "admitted"), in any of his books or lectures, that Dennis had had "a big influence on his work". Dennis had no part in writing true hallucinations either.

Again you provide no quotes to support your false claims.

 

[Finarfin]

Mckenna wilcock and pinchbeck where not the only ones who talked about 2012. Before 2012 everybody who wanted to be interresting talked about it. It was a true 2012 overkill. They even made a big hollywood movie about it

(typically american sensationalist hollywood crap movie. I do not like the domenation of american culture in europian cinema, s. Seems like all americans want to see is explosions and stuff)

Some people for example said that in 2012 planet niburu or planet x would return.

Maybe it seems like i am trying to bash mckenna but this is not the case. I have respect mckenna.
What i have a problem with is this whole 2012 phenomonon. People who use 2012 to make themselves more interresting or who use it to sell books. I think 2012 meme is nonsense. Why? Because nothing happened.

Terence never once said (or "admitted"), in any of his books or lectures, that Dennis had had "a big influence on his work". Dennis had no part in writing true hallucinations either.

Again you provide no quotes to support your false claims.

This is bullshit. Dennis has a role in this book. His character is a big part of the story. If you do not believe me read the book and find out for yourself

My point is the following. 2012 phenomonon is bullshit. Nothing happened.

 

[Psyche101]

everybody knows mckenna took 2012 as the end date for his timewave.

Now you are prevaricating. Although this ^ is true, it is not the same claim that you were making before.

You were saying before that Mckenna was "predicting that something would happen in 2012", but that is a major misunderstanding of what the novelty theory is all about. Perhaps now you have realised your error which is why you have resorted to vaguely and evasively revising your earlier claim.

are you trying to say that mckenna, pinchbeck and wilcock never talked about 2012.

More evasiveness. Nobody ever said that "mckenna, pinchbeck and wilcock never talked about 2012".

Everybody knows that these people frequently "talked about 2012". But contrary to your earlier claim (which you now seem to have covertly abandoned) they did not "predict that something would happen in 2012".

Im not referring to Wilcock because he is entirely irrelevant and unrelated to psychedelia.

Pinchbeck used 2012 a lot in his books and other works you can not deny it.

More sneaky evasiveness, hopefully this means that you have realised your mistake. Nobody ever denied that Pinchbeck used the 2012 meme in one of his books (although you incorrectly use the plural word "books", when it is actually only one single book where he talked about 2012)

Pinchbeck did inded "use 2012 a lot" in that one book, but that is a completely different claim from what you were saying earlier about him.

But let me ask you a question. What do you personally think about the 2012 phenomonon?

I think that the "2012 phenomenon" doesnt exist, as you have clearly demonstrated via your repeated misunderstanding of Mckenna's novelty theory.

I also think that the novelty theory is a highly plausible and tightly argued teleological theory of time and causality.

You are defending these people why i do not know.

I am not defending anybody, im just correcting your misunderstanding about novelty theory.

My point is the following. 2012 phenomonon is bullshit. Nothing happened.

And nobody ever said that anything in particular would happen in that year, there is no such thing as the "2012 phenomenon" other than a bunch of simpleminded drug-addled hippies who totally misunderstood some fairly simple theories. You should maybe lay off the drugs for a bit perhaps...

 

[Finarfin]

I said mckenna had various scenarios. This is true.
I said mckenna took 2012 as the end date for his timewave.

I said that i do not believe i the timewave or novelty theory because it is a dualistic philosophy.

I do not think i misunderstood anyone. I think you are misunderstanding me.
Pinchbeck used this 2012 meme a lot and talked about it as a shift in evolution the dawning of a new age. Did he not?

Point is that they where propagandist of and spreading this meme jusy like those other folks like wilcock. And again NOTHING HAPPENED.

There is no such thing as the
2012 phenomonon you must be joking. What are you trying to say that pinchbeck wilcock or mckenna never talked about this date. Are you trying to say people never talked about planet x and such.

Mckenna took 2012 as his end date. Pinchbeck talked about 2012. This is true i did not make this shit up.

 

[Psyche101]

This is bullshit. Dennis has a role in this book. His character is a big part of the story.

This ^ is correct, but this is a completely different claim to the one you made earlier that Dennis had had "a big influence on Terence". Dennis had no influence on Terence whatsoever, Dennis was completely bereft of any original ideas and he contributed very little to any of Terence's ideas.

are you trying to say that pinchbeck wilcock or mckenna never talked about this date.

Nobody ever said that "mckenna, pinchbeck and wilcock never talked about 2012".

Everybody knows that these people frequently "talked about 2012". But contrary to your earlier claim (which you now seem to have covertly abandoned) they did not "predict that something would happen in 2012".

 

[Finarfin]

This ^ is correct, but this is a completely mdifferent claim to the one you made earlier that Dennis had had "a big influence on Terence". Dennis had no influence on Terence whatsoever, Dennis was completely bereft of any original ideas and he contributed very little to any of Terence's ideas.

If you think this is true you did not read his books carefully enough or did not pay attention

 

[Psyche101]

And again NOTHING HAPPENED.

and nobody had ever said that anything would happen, so the fact that nothing happened isnt particularly suprising, unless you had misunderstood the ideas and thought that something was going to happen, in which case you must now be feeling pretty stupid.

 

[Finarfin]

Nobody ever said that "mckenna, pinchbeck and wilcock never talked about 2012".

Everybody knows that these people frequently "talked about 2012". But contrary to your earlier claim (which you now seem to have covertly abandoned) they did not "predict that something would happen in 2012".

It there was nothing going to happen why did they talk about it. Pinchbeck talked about a shift in evolution and about change. Mckenna haf various scenarios about what could happen.
Okay maybe the did not predict what would happen exactly but they where talking about this date and this year and in the end it turned out to be nonsense

and nobody had ever said that anything would happened, so the fact that nothing happened isnt particularly suprising, unless you had misunderstood the ideas and thought that something was going to happen, in which case you must now be feeling pretty stupid.

Stop calling me stupid. Why do you need to insult me like that. I do not call you stupid or insult you. It does not ad anything to this discussion
2012 was nonsense timewave was nonsense and pinchbeck just want to sell his books and used the 2012 meme to make his work seem interresting.

It, s pseudo science and pseudo spirituality.

 

[Psyche101]

Okay maybe the did not predict what would happen exactly but they where talking about this date and this year and in the end it turned out to be nonsense

Exactly, a nonexistent prediction turned out to be nonexistent, nothing happened and nobody ever said that anything in particular was going to happen. A nonsense misunderstanding of a simple theory turned out to be a nonsense misunderstanding. Finally you get it right...

Just like every other year, nothing in particular happens

Stop calling me stupid. .

read carefully what i said, i didnt call you stupid, you are oversensitive you should calm down and untwist your panties.

I said that any moron who thought that "something was going to happen in 2012" must now be feeling pretty stupid.

 

[Finarfin]

Exactly8, a nonexistent prediction turned out to be nonexistent, nothing happened and nobody ever said that anything in particular was going to happen. A nonsense misunderstanding of a simple theory turned out to be a nonsense misunderstanding. Finally you get it right...

Just like every other year, nothing in particular happens

Yes this is what i trying to say all allong mckenna his theory was and is bullshit. Pinchbeck was full of bullshit. They talked about 2012 and 2012 turned out to be bullshit. This makes these people bullshit artist.

And again i did NOT misunderstood anything. I said that mckenna took 2012 as the end date of his timewave. What did i misunderstood about this. Mckenna had various scenarios about this end date. What do i misunderstand about this.
None of these scenarious came true l. What do i misunderstood about this?

But i am stopping this discussion because it, s not going anywhere you keep denying shit and i need some sleep.
Why are you so hostel when people question this 2012 meme that turned out to be bullshit. I do not believe in novelty theory or a shift in evolution not in 2012 not now not ever. even without 2012 i think it, s nonsense and has nothing to do with psychedelics. I think it has to do with the american cultural domination of the psychedelic sub culture. I think it has to do with people wanting something to fill the emptyness inside.

One last statement.

You are right. Mckenna and pinchbeck never said that anything would actualy happen or what would actually happen.
What they did was make a sugestion that something is going to happen.
But does this matter.
Even if nothing happens there happens something because nothing is also something is it not.

Anyway they talked about 2012 as if something was going to happen and as if it was a important date to pay atention to.

It turned out to be nonsense. I personally did not get any smarter or wiser from it in any way and it was not usefull or helpfull in any way.
Entertainment is fun, but psychedelics for me is not about entertainment sensationalism aliens crap circles timetravels timewaves and 2012.

So i admit i am wrong. But i still think 2012 phenomonon (it, s real look it up) was and is nonsense and That is the point. I am NOT trying to bash Mckenna.

 

[Finarfin]

You claim that Dennis Mckenna had little influence on Terence his work is nonsense. When you read the invisible landscape you will notice it has two writers Dennis and Terence.
Go to every index of every book terence has writen and you will find dennis mckenna his name.

 

[Finarfin]

Mckenna and pinchbeck talked about 2012 and mentioned this date as being in one way or other important. For Mckenna it was the end of his timewave and for pinchbeck it had to do with a shift in evolution. They talked about this date as if something strange was going to happen.

The point i am trying to make is that pinchbeck and mckenna where talking about a bullshit meme. The timewave is nonsense. Novelty theory i think is nonsense. A shift in human evolution i think is bullshit.
There is no science no research and no logic backing any of this stuff up.
These ideas come from fantasy. Pinchbeck and mckenna made this stuff up. It, s fantasy. It, s fiction. It, s entertainment. This whole 2012 story has nothing to do with true spirituality.
It, s a entertainment it, s a bed time story nothing more.

 

[Finarfin]

I know 2012 is nonsense. You may know 2012 is nonsense, but a lot of people believed it and talked about it.
For a lot of people 2012 was a idea to fill up the spiritual void inside.

Exactly, a nonexistent prediction turned out to be nonexistent, nothing happened and nobody ever said that anything in particular was going to happen. A nonsense misunderstanding of a simple theory turned out to be a nonsense misunderstanding. Finally you get it right...

Just like every other year, nothing in particular happens



read carefully what i said, i didnt call you stupid, you are oversensitive you should calm down and untwist your panties.

I said that any moron who thought that "something was going to happen in 2012" must now be feeling pretty stupid.

Terence Mckenna said (predicted) that 2012 was going to be the end of his timewave zero. He used the word escaton to discribe this end of his timewave. What he was talking about was (e)scatology. I think escatology is a lot of nonsense.
He talked about a transcendental object at the end of time which i think is nonsense.

I NEVER SAID THAT I THOUGHT THAT SOMETHING WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. so why should i feel stupid?
the whole point is that i think it,s all a hoax, a fantasy, make believe, entertainment, a bed time story.
When it comes to 2012 and the timewave i think that Terence and Pinchbeck where full of the well known subtance.

you keep holding on to the idea that Mckenna or Pinchbeck never said anything about 2012 and that Mckenna did not predicted 2012 to be the end of his timewave. You can call me stupid or question my intelligence it does not change anything and it does not ad anything to this discussion.