Falling In Love?

[magickpencil]

As an individual, our biological goal is to reproduce.

my take is that it is the goal of the species to reproduce
an infertile human is not assumed useless, of course
maybe you see it otherwise?

But to know if your "goals" is archieved, you need to know whose child you are raising.

if the entire community is acting as the parent then why does it matter who birthed the child?, i see this as very superficial
every member of the community has an equal role and responsibility in teaching the child and preparing them for adulthood
nurture over nature = obviously i choose nurture

You sound childish... I mean, are you one of those who say "ooooh society is soooo bad I'd rather go to a forest and die"?

you don't come across as more mature than me when you try to fit people in to categories
or were you actually expecting me to answer "yes, i'm one of those?"

Conditioning is part of the evolution. It is very natural. As a parent you want to give your knowledge, the knowledge and insight of your culture further. You teach the child what is good or bad, not because you are an evil devil...but because you give your insight further. It is part of the education.

you and i have different ideas about education
i'd rather be taught objectively - if you put your hand into fire you'll be burned and unable to function correctly (action: consequence) - than subjectively - don't touch fire (right, wrong)

 

[st.bot.32]

if the entire community is acting as the parent then why does it matter who birthed the child?, i see this as very superficial
every member of the community has an equal role and responsibility in teaching the child and preparing them for adulthood
nurture over nature = obviously i choose nurture

I would argue that this already happens in our society to some extent, and in fact, as nowadays both parents have to work and no longer really raise their child, it is increasing. We call it "daycare" and then later "school". Or in some countries we call it church or religion.

My biggest problem is that in a purely communal environment I can't help but see it inevitably leading to some sort of dystopic groupthink scenario, such as what happens inevitably in any large social structure. With everyone coming from the same background, there is no real dissent or differing opinions, and no learning how to deal with dissent. Things can be bad enough with just two parents, at least you can get out of the house!

you and i have different ideas about education
i'd rather be taught objectively - if you put your hand into fire you'll be burned and unable to function correctly (action: consequence) - than subjectively - don't touch fire (right, wrong)

Most moral education is about actions and consequences. it is people's assumptions about what leads to what that cause huge problems.

eg sex before marriage is bad because it spreads aids and causes unwanted pregnancy (it contains both an action and a consequence.. but based on faulty assumptions to begin with)

 

[GOD]

I think people who have never had a good loveing relationship often have doubts about monogamy .

 

[magickpencil]

come on over some time, GOD

 

[restin]

I'm not sure what led you to that assumption... ? The entire process of birth is an incredibly immense experience physically and emotionally. You could even use the word trip, as I did..

look, what I want to say is that parental love is something biologically "explainable" and that it is not something "whooooooooah magic".

Listen, you may think that I want to make love look dirty. This is absolitely not the case. The feeling of love is the most beautiful and painful feeling, I am not talking about true love, I never felt that. But what I say that it is biologically explainable. The kiss, love, have a bigger biological meaning.

my take is that it is the goal of the species to reproduce
an infertile human is not assumed useless, of course
maybe you see it otherwise?

And the individual is part of the species, not?

No, I would never say that infertile/homosexual people are futile! But they don't get the goal. Look, I don't say that we have to be born, fuck, raise and die. But on a biological level that is true.

if the entire community is acting as the parent then why does it matter who birthed the child?, i see this as very superficial

And the Ego?

you don't come across as more mature than me when you try to fit people in to categories
or were you actually expecting me to answer "yes, i'm one of those?"

What I want to say is that what you said (conditioning and mind control) sounded very negative. But as soon as two, yes, two human beings come in contact, they need rules to be able to communicate on an equal level Ethics, morals etc.

i'd rather be taught objectively - if you put your hand into fire you'll be burned and unable to function correctly (action: consequence) - than subjectively - don't touch fire (right, wrong)

I also thought like that. But education can't be objective.

What? Ok, so to find out if killing is good or not, it has to kill a man? Education is here to prevent children from making mistakes.

 

[st.bot.32]

look, what I want to say is that parental love is something biologically "explainable" and that it is not something "whooooooooah magic".

Listen, you may think that I want to make love look dirty. This is absolitely not the case. The feeling of love is the most beautiful and painful feeling, I am not talking about true love, I never felt that. But what I say that it is biologically explainable. The kiss, love, have a bigger biological meaning.

I invite you to reread my post, you are assuming motives that aren't there. I don't recall saying any of the above. If I had wanted to say the above, I would have said it. Actually I was pretty much agreeing with some of what you had been posting, and pointing out an example of an effect.

And BTW I agree with you on the latter part of that paragraph. I actually don't get why knowing that love is a result of chemical processes and biological imperatives would make it any less real or profound. after all everything in the brain is the end result of electrochemical and evolutionary processes, even thinking .

We can explain a lot of things that occur in the brain. That doesn't kill the beauty of it all.. including love. In some ways, it only adds to the greater mystery. As an example of this mystery: Anybody who thinks they can get a date with their understanding of the biochemistry of love is probably in for a slight disappointment. Unless possibly you're dating a chemistry geek with a sense of humor

 

[magickpencil]

No, I would never say that infertile/homosexual people are futile! But they don't get the goal. Look, I don't say that we have to be born, fuck, raise and die. But on a biological level that is true.

i agree, but this has no thing to do w love

And the Ego?

a powerful force that should be usurped to make way for clear thinking

What I want to say is that what you said (conditioning and mind control) sounded very negative.

to be honest, i hesitated before using the term "mind control"
plenty of room to be misconstrued there

But as soon as two, yes, two human beings come in contact, they need rules to be able to communicate on an equal level Ethics, morals etc.

i think i misunderstand you here
what do you mean by "communicate on an equal level?"

I also thought like that. But education can't be objective.

What? Ok, so to find out if killing is good or not, it has to kill a man? Education is here to prevent children from making mistakes.

i'd have bent to this argument about six months ago, but now i have more to say
i would teach my child "if you kill a person then you're going to run into a nearly infinite amount of opposition," rather than "killing is bad"
maybe a bit liberal for some, but i maintain that subjectivity is for emotions and art
supply facts, not morals

 

[st.bot.32]

how about, "if you kill another human being, you are going to cause indescribable pain and end another being's existence"

knowing yourself is the beginning of knowing others. knowing what it is to hurt is knowing how it feels to hurt, and how to deal with pain. and hence is the beginning of empathy.

without the ability to understand others you have a collection of people who merely fear how the consequences of their actions will affect themselves. this is not objectivity. really, religion aside, how is this any different than being afraid of doing bad merely because you are scared that the consequence will be burning in hellfire?

 

[restin]

I invite you to reread my post, you are assuming motives that aren't there. I don't recall saying any of the above. If I had wanted to say the above, I would have said it. Actually I was pretty much agreeing with some of what you had been posting, and pointing out an example of an effect.

I am very sorry then. :wink: I totally agree.

[Ego] a powerful force that should be usurped to make way for clear thinking

I agree and disagree.

On one hand, a world where everyone is without an ego, there is no violence, war etc and the commonwealth is central.

(little note: erasing the ego is also a part of education)

On the other hand, as soon as ONE has an ego, we are all lost.

And: every process is lost as everyone agrees and doesn't question anything.

And finally, liberty is lost too. You don't think yourself but accept what is told.

(or did you mean it otherwise, if yes, illuminate a stupdi idiot who didn't understand)

to be honest, i hesitated before using the term "mind control"
plenty of room to be misconstrued there

Yes, because authority of society can be used and abused...

what do you mean by "communicate on an equal level?"

Hm. ok. If we 2 only are talking, I accept you as a human being, equal to me, and so do you. If not, one of us may be harmed. You know the tricks of the governments during war? They are the "enemy/terrorists/animals etc.", they are dehumanized. Ethics amongst others allows us to "humanize" others.

i would teach my child "if you kill a person then you're going to run into a nearly infinite amount of opposition," rather than "killing is bad"

I partially agree, as a parent it is of course stupid to just state something. "It is bad".

But you know, I have a much younger brother.

And you can't say a 5- year old child, if it hits someone, that then his moral responsibility before society is harmed. Or that the other one is an equal being as he is. Or that he will come into an infinite amount of opposition.

It is just bad.

Later on, the child will ask why. And then, partially the parents but often the child too, will answer him/herself. It will understand why killing or stealing is bad. Or that something the parents told them is wrong.

But as a basis has to exist.

how about, "if you kill another human being, you are going to cause indescribable pain and end another being's existence"

That also needs a basis of education....

 

[magickpencil]

And you can't say a 5- year old child, if it hits someone, that then his moral responsibility before society is harmed. Or that the other one is an equal being as he is. Or that he will come into an infinite amount of opposition.

It is just bad.

it's not bad
this five-year old doesn't know what to do w his excessive energy
he doesn't understand how to empathize, put himself into others' shoes
it's not BAD, it's uneducated; it is natural and easy for a child to manifest energy physically

i don't think that's too punky

 

[restin]

okay, don't make it too punky

Actually we got away from the topic but I find this also interesting.

i presume that absence of ego doesn't necessitate absence of will

yes, it's true...my bad...I'll have to think about that...

 

[restin]

What I also wanted to say is, that I really admire your liberal thought. Until recently you could count me as a libertarian (libertarian= anarchist in newspeak). But recently I read a very interesting book where the guy said that
Authority and freedom are not two forces fighting against each other but two parts of one whole. When you make a fire, you have to guard it because if you don't, the whole forest will be on fire.

 

[magickpencil]

And you can't say a 5- year old child, if it hits someone, that then his moral responsibility before society is harmed. Or that the other one is an equal being as he is. Or that he will come into an infinite amount of opposition.

It is just bad.

it's not bad
this five-year old doesn't know what to do w his excessive energy
he doesn't understand how to empathize, put himself into others' shoes
it's not BAD, it's uneducated; it is natural and easy for a child to manifest energy physically

i don't think that's too punky

 

[Faust]

"In muslim world, love is regarded as an immoral act."


" that's why 'we're' usually not very faithful"

Who are you talking for ? Why are you saying that ?......Because you havent been in love .

I think what you all are talking about is ego , self love , vanity .

No no I'm not talking about romantic things. This is evolutionary. Men have a better chance of producing offspring if they're unfaithful. That's why they're not necessarily monogamous. Thats what I meant with 'we', simply 'men'. Its kinda quick to decide I haven't been in love aswell, maybe you rely on prejudice and stereotypes too much?

 

[GOD]

Predjudice and sterotypes my arse , your the one using them . Men fuck with women to make babys so its not just men that are unfaithfull or have use out of it . Did you know that 30 - 40% of children dont come from the person who thinks he is their father .

 

[lol*fan]

When I'm in love (and I still am) the world seems like a better place, and it doesn't matter if it rains or if it's sunny.

That's exactly what I experience whenever I'm in love with life itself... and luckily that's quite often!

I am in love with life.
By singing an laughing I make love to her.
I am servant and slave.

I feel love for a lot of people.
I feel love for animals, Jet I don't have sex with them.

culture plays a role in the whole sex thing.
There is always discussion inside society on sexuality.

Take phedhophilia, for example. Most people agree that this is wrong.
Jet in some cultures it is considered normal.

I don't agree that love between to people is a cultural manufactured.
The way we think about love and sex maybe cultural manufactured, but not love itself.
Love is a transcendental force. A force culture cannot control.

The world is full of love.
Sex is just a aspect of love.

If you focus on sex, everything is sex. If you focus on music everything, is music.
If you focus on love, everything is love.

I pretty much agree.

Love is one of the great drugs without a doubt, like any drug though if you act as though it's all that matters in life it can easily ruin that life.

Wisely spoken. Your nickname made me smile by the way.

the love of a parent for the child is absolutely unconditional. it is a trip in itself that reaches into deep, forgotten places in the psyche.

if you have felt it, or even seen it, you know what i mean

I had one mushroom trip that dealt with the relationship between my mother and me. It was very intense. I totally understand what you're saying.

 

[Faust]

Predjudice and sterotypes my arse , your the one using them . Men fuck with women to make babys so its not just men that are unfaithfull or have use out of it . Did you know that 30 - 40% of children dont come from the person who thinks he is their father .

I do now, I think people who can't spell 'prejucide' and 'stereotype' shouldn't be in a discussion.

 

[GOD]

"I`m think" ???

And i think nazis should be castrated .

One of the side effects for me of the interferon i have to take is that my eyesight has become realy shity Before i could read a newspaper from 1 - 1.5 meters away . Now i need a magnifying glass .

 

[Guest]

one thing that i've noticed is that all the threads that can be deeper, turns out in a fair of idiots.
if one fails to use reason to admit he/she is wrong (and all the dark benefits that can come from there), why is he/she wasting time on this forum ?
just a wonderful thread turned out in a big pile of shit/waste of time for who really wants to think once or twice per day. PM's are meant to be used in dialogues and not trashing threads!

 

[Faust]

"I`m think" ???

And i think nazis should be castrated .

One of the side effects for me of the interferon i have to take is that my eyesight has become realy shity Before i could read a newspaper from 1 - 1.5 meters away . Now i need a magnifying glass .

Better read the newspaper in the shade then.