contamination?

[Cultosaurus]

Fresh Air Exchange ... on a grow, you should do it anywhere from 2 to 6 or 7 times a day. Some strains like a lot, some only like a little. This has to come from experience however, I've never been able to compile a list. Basically, opening up the bag or tub and fan air in for a bit to exchange it. You want to leave some CO2 in once in a while though as CO2 is a pinning trigger.

I know, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Exchange the air, but while its resting CO2 will build up in areas. That's why you'll see pinning at the bottom of cakes and at the sides of tubs, that's where the CO2 collects. It's heavier than regular air and sinks. You can encourage it in the middle of a barren tub by putting down a sheet of wax paper or cellophane.

The cobweb doesn't like so much fresh air, that's why it's helpful.

 

[IJesusChrist]

interesting - how do you do FAE and still attempting to be sterile??

 

[Cultosaurus]

interesting - how do you do FAE and still attempting to be sterile??

You just have to hope that none get in. Fully developed myc is less susceptible to contamination and can fight it off for a while. However, if you have a 'bad' home, you're going to get some. There is always bacteria and molds in the air, but older, musty, mildewy homes will be more of a problem. If the air in the room is less contaminated, you'll have less of a problem. You can spray down a small room, like a bathroom, with disinfectant, and try it there. Kitchens will have lots of molds and dirty air. Just look what grows on the bread and fruit that is left out. Don't ever spray a disinfectant into the bag or tub, you'll get mutations. If it's possible or you can afford it, you can use an air cleaner, like one that has a Hepa filter to remove particulate matter from the air. Or do it in front of a Flow hood. If you have really bad air, take the output from an air purifier filter and blow it in.

I know, it's a bit of a double edged sword, you want to keep it clean and sterile, but you have to add fresh air. You just have to do the best that you can with what ever you have and hope that the myc can fight it off for a while, at least for a flush or 3.

 

[IJesusChrist]

well from a week ago when i looked at it, the guy said it was rapidly growing then stopped.

the cobweb formed, the mycelium slowed. i told him to spray h2o2, and that got rid of the cobweb.

i think that he allowed for FAE in a good manner, but only time will tell....

but yes, since it wasn't fully formed (maybe only 50% colonized) I'm worried he has lost it all if he did a bad FAE.

 

[IJesusChrist]

I was looking at liquid cultures and I don't understand it,

FAE is crucial to shroom growth, right?
How then , does mycelium grow fine in liquid culture, where oxygen is going to be nearly minimal?

Secondly, how can you tell what is a contaminant and what is mycelium in liquid culture?? It seems like it would be even more difficult than in grain bags?

 

[trick]

It even easier to spot contams in a liquid culture. healthy mycelium has a very distinct look, and common contams do also. its all just about learning to pick it out.

I used rye on my last go around, and it was pretty easy to spot. currently im using birdseed, and its slightly harder to tell. but generally speaking, contams arnt that hard to spot. the only thing you have to look out for is pesky cobweb contams. those seem to blend with mycelium somewhat well.

and that question about FAE is a good one. if you check out the neglect tek on shroomery, it misproves alot of theories about mushrooms light requirments. i think liquid cultures are just a sort of unnatural tweak to the growth characteristics of mycelium. we really know very little about how it all works, its quite amazing if you really think of the whole life cycle. I should deffiantly look into some sort of liquid culture as well. it saves so much hasstle.

right now ill be doing grain to grain transfers a good 80 to 100 times a month. liquid cultures make all of that SO much easier. just pop an alcohol soaked sponge on top of you innoculation hole, stab with syringe, and inject. easy as pie. and relitivly fail safe compaired to opening the jar every time.

one of the last few times we talked you had mentioned an interest in the art. hows that comming? i see youve been studying.

 

[Cultosaurus]

FAE is crucial to shroom growth, right?
How then , does mycelium grow fine in liquid culture, where oxygen is going to be nearly minimal?

Your answer is in your question. 'Mushrooms' require FAE, mycelium does not. In an LC jar, you never fill the liquid to the top, leave it half to 3/4 full. The oxygen in the jar is enough for the myc to grow. When the oxygen is used up, the myc stalls and remains where it is. I won't die. Not for a long time at least. At room temperature, it will last up to a year or more, longer in a refrigerator.

Myc growing in clean LC will look like a cloud or a cotton ball. For some photos, you can use google images or look here : http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showfla ... 9#15234219 . In the first post are some good photos. You can use the search function on Shroomery or Mycotopia for some more photos and info.

Contamination in LC will be any colour but white fluff. In fact, some of it you won't see until it is put into jars, as it will not grow while submerged in liquid. You certainly will not see cobweb in LC. Other contaminants will only show once they are on the initial sub or on the second sub stage, whether it's BRF or any grain. The most common ones are black mold, green mold which is trichoderma (http://nt.ars-grin.gov/taxadescriptions ... isited=yes) and a pink coloured one called lipstick mold. Cobweb is harder to tell in a jar, but will show almost like myc. On an exposed sub, cobweb is easier to ID. There are many kinds of contams that you can get. Here is a good list of some of the contams that you may encounter : http://www.shroomery.org/5276/What-are- ... om-culture

and that question about FAE is a good one. if you check out the neglect tek on shroomery, it misproves alot of theories about mushrooms light requirments. i think liquid cultures are just a sort of unnatural tweak to the growth characteristics of mycelium. we really know very little about how it all works, its quite amazing if you really think of the whole life cycle. I should deffiantly look into some sort of liquid culture as well. it saves so much hasstle.

Uuuhhmmm . .. no. We really do know how the mycelium works. It is no 'unnatural tweak'. It is part of the normal fungal life cycle. Here is but one description : http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showfla ... 35#8045435 . What happens in LC is just it's normal growth, however, since it is submerged in a food source, when it runs out of oxygen, it just stalls. Not all life is capable of such stalling. If humans could only be so lucky as to stop growing old at some age .. .. what a concept.

LC should be kept in the dark. Don't confuse the light needed for mushrooms with the darkness needed for myc in LC or in jars. If light is allowed into a jar of grain, BRF or LC, you will get some pinning. It is rare in LC, but in grain or BRF jars, it is called in-vitro. Remember, it is what happens in nature. The myc will grow underground or inside of decaying trees, when it reaches the surface and has the right amount of light and the right temperature, it pins and you produce a mushroom.

Again, any google search of 'fungal life cycle' or 'how mycelium works' will give you many sites that have the more advanced, long version, of how the shrooms start from spores, to myc, to fruits. http://www.anbg.gov.au/fungi/mycelium.html .

I hope that this helps to clear things up.
Peace
Cult

 

[trick]

I was meaning that were still developing new techniques to grow mushrooms easily at home. I havnt read up on the subject in nearly a year and theres already so many drastically different teks that people never knew about back then. Mushrooms respond so drasticly to slight variations that we are constantly learning and developing as we go.

If your trying to say that mankind already knows all there is to know about mycology, i can defiantly say your mistaken. You, may have extensive knowledge on the subject, but im sure you still learn new cool things with time.
All i was trying to say was that its interesting.

 

[IJesusChrist]

It is all pretty interesting. Some guy in the 'burbs is asking me all these questions and I don't know the answers to them. Shroomery is helpful but a lot of times they think everyone on there knows what every abbreviation is ever and all have been reading about it for years.

Few other questions though;

The guy doesn't want to buy a pressure cooker. He lives with his dad and I don't know, I guess his dad isn't cool with a big PC sitting around? He wanted to just microwave everything.

How is that for sterility? Microwave a jar for 5 minutes, microwave liquid culture for 10 minutes?

I was thinking if you put the LC in the jar to the top and microwave for 5-10 minutes it should be good. This will be vicious boiling. Keep the jar's cap in a little bowl of alcohol. Once the 5-10 minutes is up, air dry the cap for a second, and cap it on.

OR is a pressure cooker absolutely essenial

 

[Cultosaurus]

Trick ... No slight or insult was intended. I'm sorry if it seemed that way. You're very correct, I always need to learn more about my hobby. I have to rely on experts like Paul Stamets and others who are actual mycologists to teach me. There are many who grow better and know more than I do. I just try to advise as best as I can with the best information that I can find. There are lots of new TEKs being developed by the home grower, home farmer who just experiments and release those successful results for the rest of us try out.

Here's one that I found interesting :

IJesusChrist . .. . that complaint of the Shroomery and Mycotopia is a common one. They are not very gentle on noobies. That's one reason why a lot of people have found a home at Shroomotopia.

A microwave may work with LC. I've seen a lot of failures using a microwave for agar and LC. I've never used a microwave though. I've only ever PCed everything. I find it more reliable. It will be the actual 'wave' that will kill any contaminant, it will not be from the boiling of the LC. 212 degrees Fahrenheit does not kill all living things. That's why we use a PC to 15 PSI. That 15 PSI puts the temperature inside the PC to 250 degrees Fahrenheit which should kill all molds, bacterias, fungi and especially, destroy any spores of those contams so that they do not start to grow later on. A PC isn't needed for BRF, but is needed for any grain. Grains have endospores that must be destroyed before growing myc, otherwise you will get contams from that later on.

It's also important to remember that any time that you have open air getting to your work, it has a chance of getting contaminated. And microwaves will be dirty, in most cases. One way to avoid having the contents of the jar exposed is to use plastic lids. They are available for canning as well, you don't have to use the metal lids and rings. Using plastic means that you can keep the lid on. Also, do not fill to the top, you want only 1/2 to 3/4 full of liquid.

It's not usually from live contamination that you will get a problem after boiling or using alcohol, it's from the spores of the molds, fungi and bacteria that survive the cleaning process. Those spores survive alcohol. That's why we use bleach for most cleaning. I'm not a big fan of bleach either. I avoid it when I can, but that's what a lot of people use, as it will destroy the contamination spores.

Good luck with all your grows
Peace
Cult

 

[IJesusChrist]

Ok... clears some up but looks like microwave isn't used as much as PC.

I'll have to look up BRF and why it doesn't need a PC.

Spores are nasty - not really alive, but not really dead. The lab I work in actually is devoting its entire research to the removal of spores.

I was also going to look into plastic lids so I could put those in the microwave. I think if you microwaved a jar with a plastic lid (I'm assuming most would be able to handle 15 PSI) you'd be in good sterile conditions... Plus you could see through to the top of your container as well.

Maybe I'll do some experimentation on how well microwaves fair in sterility. I love microwaves - so much chemistry has become a breeze with them, and yet they are so cheap and easy to find.

I know they kill bacteria and cells, but endospores I'm not positive. I'll google that after... before!

"The results were unambiguous: Two minutes of microwaving on full power mode killed or inactivated more than 99 percent of all the living pathogens in the sponges and pads, although the Bacillus cereus spores required four minutes for total inactivation.

 

[Cultosaurus]

BRF does not need a PC because it is ground up, it is a flour. Rice flour has no endospore.

You can think of mold, fungi and bacterial spores like a seed. It has a hard shell and will grow once given moisture and allows the shell to crack open. That's why spores survive alcohol, the shell protects it.

 

[H2O2]

I think BRF would still need to be pressure cooked. Even more so because the 'shell' of the rice kernel has been cracked and is now exposed as an available food source to contamination. Maybe I misunderstood your post?

Or am just wrong?

And, isn't BRF kind of an outdated, troublesome technique? Grinding, mixing, all this extra work. A compact, less aerated substrate, than grain, no matter how much you 'fluff' it. So much could go wrong, then you sit and watch your jars stalling forever, gasping for oxygen. Obviously, that's my opinion and there's a million ways to end at the same place.
But, straight grains seem easier and less prone to contamination. Not sure why people still stick with the PF Tek.

To each their own!
Not trying to tear anyone down, just trying to help.

As far as how LC works in a liquid / with little air...isn't that why people buy these:

Magnetic Stirrer.

LC can be a major pain in the neck as well, though. Why not do grain, then shoot sterile water into the colonized jar, swish thoroughly, extract water with large gauge needle, viola! Cheap, no hassle LC. If getting grain to colonize without contamination is a problem, liquid culture will be a much bigger one.

Be safe, stay out of the newspapers, and
thanks for listening to a 'newbie' pontificate like he actually knew something.

 

[Cultosaurus]

I think BRF would still need to be pressure cooked. Even more so because the 'shell' of the rice kernel has been cracked and is now exposed as an available food source to contamination. Maybe I misunderstood your post?

Or am just wrong?

And, isn't BRF kind of an outdated, troublesome technique? [/b]

Sorry, yes. BRF is the only one that does not require a PC and it has to do with the Endosperms in grains. BRF can be steamed, grains require a PC

And as to using, it's because it doesn't require a PC that it's a good starting point. It can teach you the basics without having to get a lot of equipment at the beginning. And you don't have to move it onto a sub, you can just leave it as a cake. It has to do with how the whole indoor growing began. That was how PF started teaching himself, and it's kinda like the 'training wheel' version of getting into the hobby. And besides, I get my BRF already ground. but I have done my own too. Here's one, try finding Black Sweet Rice. It has a higher nute count than brown.

Certainly, there's nothing wrong with someone using grains on a first try either. It's just a matter of choice.

 

[H2O2]

Sorry, yes. BRF is the only one that does not require a PC and it has to do with the Endosperms in grains. BRF can be steamed, grains require a PC

Oh, okay. I didn't know that. Thanks.

And you don't have to move it onto a sub, you can just leave it as a cake.

Same with grain. Once the mycelium takes hold, it's solidifies nicely.

It has to do with how the whole indoor growing began. That was how PF started teaching himself, and it's kinda like the 'training wheel' version of getting into the hobby. And besides, I get my BRF already ground. but I have done my own too. Here's one, try finding Black Sweet Rice. It has a higher nute count than brown.

Cool, we're on the same page here, did you get the nute info from Stamets... or another source?

 

[Cultosaurus]

Actually, I found the rice at a store one time and then couldn't find it again. When I tried to find a store that carried it, I Googled, and found a nutrition site. I compared the lists of nutes in both and found that the Sweet Black was higher in some and about even with other nutes. It has more carbs and is why they call it sweet, it's more sticky than brown.

 

[H2O2]

Awesome, thanks for that.

 

[tinnycan]

thanks Cult for the link to the Paul Stamets vid.

 

[Heimsgard]

Alright first off I should start by saying I am not very good at these introduction things so, let me give this a shot.

My name is Heimsgard, Great, (though, not greatest!) Wizard of the frigged North! (though sometimes not so 'frigged').
I go by many names, though the one used most, I am not using at the moment; so this will have to do!

I have migrated... so to speak, from the Shroomery - as it seems to have gone missing. (I assure you, I have my minions refreshing those browsers constantly!)

ANYWAY. Enough about frost and magic.

Greetings!
----------

My infernal (BRF) spawns (cakes) seem to have little fruits!

And seem to loose their .... VEIL really early...

just tiny. Just what is going on with my not so.... mighty cakes?!

(NO thermometer yet, it was... quickly thrown together, but standard.
(flux temps, just got a space heater, use it when I can bear it, even during slumber!)
Dry air, so I mist often as possible.

(Ordered, aquarium thermometer, plus a hygrometer (pet one for lizards), a pet fogging machine for humidity,
and... uhhh.... a heating mat for the base of my tank to keep temp normal - as well as saving for a hygro/thermostat to keep it alllll maintained.


(I also have ... MOLD ISSUES I THINK! NOOOO!)

Gaze into my mighty crystal ba.... cube!

Voir la pièce jointe 7695Voir la pièce jointe 7696Voir la pièce jointe 7697Voir la pièce jointe 7698Voir la pièce jointe 7699


All these pictures are the same cake.

Just different angles, there is a blue.... spot there, it looks blueish, and such... but that is zoomed in as best as I could.

The mushrooms growing off the rest of the cake look yummy, but, are they safe to eat!?


Why are the viels breaking after only reaching about 2-3 inches long.


It's probably my shit climate consistency.

Anyway!
Thanks!

And hello again!

 

[Heimsgard]

Just some more pics of the rest of what is going on.

Voir la pièce jointe 7700Top view :S
Voir la pièce jointe 7701One looks good, the other is not so happy looking
Voir la pièce jointe 7702Just another cake.
Voir la pièce jointe 7703and ... some other view.



Thanks!