Buzzkill; what's happening in America right now......shit
- Auteur de la discussion Brewmaster
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Jahvisions
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people kill people, but guns makes it a lot easier. I would say that if I carry a gun, especially under influence of alcohol, in a moment of anger I would use it maybe. Most people have a too short tempor and a too big ego. It's like the cold war with americans against the russians.
Entheonaut
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UTHTURN a dit:
If those laws are so good, why doesn't this shit happen in my country?
UTHTURN
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the laws aren't good thats the point. The law takes away the right to carry from law abiding citizens. The only ones left with guns are the police and the criminals or both :wink:
"90 percent of violent crimes are committed without a handgun. Of those committed with a handgun, 93 percent of the guns used were obtained through unlawful means. Registration and waiting times are of little value in deterring criminals." -- Dr. Walter E. Williams
"90 percent of violent crimes are committed without a handgun. Of those committed with a handgun, 93 percent of the guns used were obtained through unlawful means. Registration and waiting times are of little value in deterring criminals." -- Dr. Walter E. Williams
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UTHTURN a dit:
Oh man, don't begin with this, the USA detain the world record of people killed by a gun and they have one of the most permissive law regarding weapons, don't you think this is SOMEHOW related ?
Man, no common people could detain a gun in an European country so easily, still I don't think they are defenseless against their government...
Wasn't democracry created to avoid this kind of thing anyway ?
UTHTURN a dit:
Yes, but maybe if the victim didn't tried to defend himself by pulling is own, legally obtained gun, the criminal wouldn't have shooted him in the first place...
Don't you think that criminals would be less inclined to use deadly force if they knew that common citizen have virtually no chance of having a gun ?
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now, i ask...what happened to the murderer to make him think that what he did was the best choice ?
i mean...what did people did to him ?
we as psychonauts should look at all sides of the problem. what cnn says certainly is not true. the victims were innocent, i agree.
is not the murderer a human like us ? what made the pressure inside of him ? why did he explode ?
better...
why did he killed that specific people ?
why so many?
shouldn't we see this as the trouble of our little society and not as the blame of a murderer ? we can put him in jail, if he isn't already dead. that won't solve anything, and never will. perhaps if one of us would live the experiences he lived, we would pick a gun and blast a couple of brains.
again, i hate murderers, but they are not the problem. the problem lies in our values. we don't preach non-violence! we don't live by ANY rules. humanity hasn't got a goal, an objective. that all reflects on this.
all that i'm asking is not to take this lightly, and try to see this as an alone event. this event has causes and consequences. the murderer, like anyone alive, is a victim of this giant plot. we just like to think that we are safe because we have built cities and are far away from the wild beasts. hey, we ARE wild beasts, remember ?
i mean...what did people did to him ?
we as psychonauts should look at all sides of the problem. what cnn says certainly is not true. the victims were innocent, i agree.
is not the murderer a human like us ? what made the pressure inside of him ? why did he explode ?
better...
why did he killed that specific people ?
why so many?
shouldn't we see this as the trouble of our little society and not as the blame of a murderer ? we can put him in jail, if he isn't already dead. that won't solve anything, and never will. perhaps if one of us would live the experiences he lived, we would pick a gun and blast a couple of brains.
again, i hate murderers, but they are not the problem. the problem lies in our values. we don't preach non-violence! we don't live by ANY rules. humanity hasn't got a goal, an objective. that all reflects on this.
all that i'm asking is not to take this lightly, and try to see this as an alone event. this event has causes and consequences. the murderer, like anyone alive, is a victim of this giant plot. we just like to think that we are safe because we have built cities and are far away from the wild beasts. hey, we ARE wild beasts, remember ?
UTHTURN
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the violent crime rate is higher in britain where there is a gun ban even a knife ban
http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html
"Don't you think that criminals would be less inclined to use deadly force if they knew that common citizen have virtually no chance of having a gun ?" yeah if criminals thought rationally no this guy knew that there was a gun ban on campus didn't stop him someone out to kill people would love to know the population will be defenseless
“A Well-armed Populace Is The Best Defense Against Tyranny
http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html
"Don't you think that criminals would be less inclined to use deadly force if they knew that common citizen have virtually no chance of having a gun ?" yeah if criminals thought rationally no this guy knew that there was a gun ban on campus didn't stop him someone out to kill people would love to know the population will be defenseless
“A Well-armed Populace Is The Best Defense Against Tyranny
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daytripper a dit:
That's exactly my point...
Brewmaster
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Tiax, keep in mind that we're also a big, fuckin' country. It's logical that more people are killed per year.
Like Uthturn said; 93% of all violent crimes committed with a gun, were done with a weapon that was obtained through illegal means. We have background checks and waiting lists for law abiding folks to get a gun. If you've ever been convicted of a felony or a violent crime then you're automatically out. You can't buy one.
So what do you do? Go buy a stolen one off the street for cheaper. Then if it comes back to that gun, it's not even registered in your name.
There's only so much that can be done. This country is full of crazies. If you try to take guns away from everyone, then the crazies are going to be the only ones left holding them.
Like Uthturn said; 93% of all violent crimes committed with a gun, were done with a weapon that was obtained through illegal means. We have background checks and waiting lists for law abiding folks to get a gun. If you've ever been convicted of a felony or a violent crime then you're automatically out. You can't buy one.
So what do you do? Go buy a stolen one off the street for cheaper. Then if it comes back to that gun, it's not even registered in your name.
There's only so much that can be done. This country is full of crazies. If you try to take guns away from everyone, then the crazies are going to be the only ones left holding them.
Entheonaut
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UTHTURN a dit:
Might be true yes, but what's the chance you die from a fist? And what's the chance that a bullit kills you?
UTHURN a dit:
It's because of the gunlaws in America that there are so many guns in the country. Anyone could get his hands on one because they are everywhere.
Over here in Holland I can get my hands on allmost any kind of drug, but I don't know anyone who has a gun, or knows how to get one...
Brewmaster
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And I agree with Daytripper; it's a much bigger problem than just one man.
And we are wild beasts but no other animal kills it's own kind like we humans do.
We're rapidly degenerating. We're coming to believe that war and violence is acceptable behavior.
And we are wild beasts but no other animal kills it's own kind like we humans do.
We're rapidly degenerating. We're coming to believe that war and violence is acceptable behavior.
UTHTURN
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"Over here in Holland I can get my hands on allmost any kind of drug, but I don't know anyone who has a gun, or knows how to get one..." thats not because there are less guns its because you are not a criminal that wants a gun. I don't know how to get heroin its not because there is less heroin its because i don't want it.
Entheonaut
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UTHTURN a dit:
No you don't get the point I'm trying to make :wink: , ask every dealer in the US if he knows where to get a gun in an illegal way? I bet allmost anyone of them even carries one... All the dealers I know (so also in the criminal cirquit), don't know how to get their hands on a gun. So guns are not available on the streets over here as they are in the US. So pretend I wanted a gun? I couldn't get one, and I'm not gonna kill 31 people with a 3 inch knife.
Entheonaut
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UTHTURN a dit:
To be honest yes, I have asked them about weapons before. I know them well so we talk about stuff like that sometimes.
UTHTURN
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thought this was interesting
Yesterday saw the publication of a report (PDF) by the Dutch Justice Department on guns and gun crime. (There's an English summary on page 173). It has been summarized in the newsmedia, with the key headlines being that it's easy for criminals to buy guns. For 250 euros you can get a basic gun. The most popular is the Browning Highpower while Glocks and Berettas are popular too. The more refined criminals pay 1500 euros for an honest-to-goodness Smith and Wesson. Machine guns start at 1900 euros, and hand grenades can be had for 7 euros a piece.
The total number of illegal firearms is estimated to be between 85,000 and 120,000 depending on various assumptions on circulation speed and extrapolations from the numbers of confiscated arms. It's also estimated that up to 20,000 firearms trade hands each year. Most weapons are single-use. The criminals get rid of the weapon once's it been fired. In some cases, they sell it on to clueless newbie criminals.
By European standards, it's easy to get a gun legally in the Netherlands. The requirements are that you have to have been a member of a shooting club for a year, be 18 years or older, prove that you can handle firearms safely, have enough shots to your name and you obviously can't have a criminal record. The actual procedure for buying a gun is arcane and requires approval from the shooting club and the police. You must keep the gun in a safe in your home (so it's no use for self-defense), you're only allowed to transport it to and from the shooting club, and the police will come inspect your home at least once a year to check on how you're storing the gun. There are about 80,000 people with a gun license in the Netherlands.
This report focuses almost exclusively on illegal gun ownership. It makes no mention of how many legal guns were used in committing crimes. The report does point out that going the legal route of obtaining a gun makes little sense for criminals, since it's long and cumbersome while they can get guns easily anyway in the illegal circuit. If there had been many legal guns used, I suspect it would have been mentioned.
The number of gun crimes has been relatively constant in the three years that the report covers (1998-2000). There have been 30 crimes with firearms committed per 100,000 inhabitants. There are huge regional variations. In Amsterdam the rate was 72 per 100,000 people, while in the rural provinces of Drenthe and Zeeland the rates were 14 and 13 respectively. The big cities have much higher crime rates than rural areas, so the higher incidence of gun crimes is no surprise.
How does this compare to America? The FBI's Uniform Crime Reports provide the answer. The UCR keeps track of gun use in three kinds of crime: murder, robbery and aggravated assault. There are 5.6 murders per 100,000 people in the US (page 19 of the linked PDF) with 63.4% involving firearms (table 2.9, page 23). Robberies run at 148.5 per 100,000 (p.32) with 42.0% involving guns (table 2.22, p.35). Aggravated assault occurs at a rate of 318.5 (p.36) with 18.3% gun use (table 2.24, p.38). This means that gun-related crime in the US runs at 124 per 100,000 people.
This is substantially higher than the 30 reported for the Netherlands, although the 72 rate in Amsterdam comes rather closer. But this is not the whole story. Does lower criminal gun ownership translate to lower crime rates overall? Looking at the FBI data in table 1 on page 64, the violent crime rate in the US was 504.4 per 100,000 inhabitants, while property crime ran at 3656.1 per 100,000 inhabitants. The Dutch Central Bureau for Statistics has crime numbers online, but not the crime rate. The table shows 101,143 violent crimes and 919,262 property crimes in 2001. With a population of 16,171,520 (September 2002), this works out as 625.4 violent crimes per 100,000 people and 5684.4 proprety crimes. Or, to put it differently, the violent crime rate in the Netherlands in 24% higher than in the US, and the property crime rate is 55% higher.
More guns, less crime. What a surprise.
http://qsi.cc/blog/archives/000144.html
Yesterday saw the publication of a report (PDF) by the Dutch Justice Department on guns and gun crime. (There's an English summary on page 173). It has been summarized in the newsmedia, with the key headlines being that it's easy for criminals to buy guns. For 250 euros you can get a basic gun. The most popular is the Browning Highpower while Glocks and Berettas are popular too. The more refined criminals pay 1500 euros for an honest-to-goodness Smith and Wesson. Machine guns start at 1900 euros, and hand grenades can be had for 7 euros a piece.
The total number of illegal firearms is estimated to be between 85,000 and 120,000 depending on various assumptions on circulation speed and extrapolations from the numbers of confiscated arms. It's also estimated that up to 20,000 firearms trade hands each year. Most weapons are single-use. The criminals get rid of the weapon once's it been fired. In some cases, they sell it on to clueless newbie criminals.
By European standards, it's easy to get a gun legally in the Netherlands. The requirements are that you have to have been a member of a shooting club for a year, be 18 years or older, prove that you can handle firearms safely, have enough shots to your name and you obviously can't have a criminal record. The actual procedure for buying a gun is arcane and requires approval from the shooting club and the police. You must keep the gun in a safe in your home (so it's no use for self-defense), you're only allowed to transport it to and from the shooting club, and the police will come inspect your home at least once a year to check on how you're storing the gun. There are about 80,000 people with a gun license in the Netherlands.
This report focuses almost exclusively on illegal gun ownership. It makes no mention of how many legal guns were used in committing crimes. The report does point out that going the legal route of obtaining a gun makes little sense for criminals, since it's long and cumbersome while they can get guns easily anyway in the illegal circuit. If there had been many legal guns used, I suspect it would have been mentioned.
The number of gun crimes has been relatively constant in the three years that the report covers (1998-2000). There have been 30 crimes with firearms committed per 100,000 inhabitants. There are huge regional variations. In Amsterdam the rate was 72 per 100,000 people, while in the rural provinces of Drenthe and Zeeland the rates were 14 and 13 respectively. The big cities have much higher crime rates than rural areas, so the higher incidence of gun crimes is no surprise.
How does this compare to America? The FBI's Uniform Crime Reports provide the answer. The UCR keeps track of gun use in three kinds of crime: murder, robbery and aggravated assault. There are 5.6 murders per 100,000 people in the US (page 19 of the linked PDF) with 63.4% involving firearms (table 2.9, page 23). Robberies run at 148.5 per 100,000 (p.32) with 42.0% involving guns (table 2.22, p.35). Aggravated assault occurs at a rate of 318.5 (p.36) with 18.3% gun use (table 2.24, p.38). This means that gun-related crime in the US runs at 124 per 100,000 people.
This is substantially higher than the 30 reported for the Netherlands, although the 72 rate in Amsterdam comes rather closer. But this is not the whole story. Does lower criminal gun ownership translate to lower crime rates overall? Looking at the FBI data in table 1 on page 64, the violent crime rate in the US was 504.4 per 100,000 inhabitants, while property crime ran at 3656.1 per 100,000 inhabitants. The Dutch Central Bureau for Statistics has crime numbers online, but not the crime rate. The table shows 101,143 violent crimes and 919,262 property crimes in 2001. With a population of 16,171,520 (September 2002), this works out as 625.4 violent crimes per 100,000 people and 5684.4 proprety crimes. Or, to put it differently, the violent crime rate in the Netherlands in 24% higher than in the US, and the property crime rate is 55% higher.
More guns, less crime. What a surprise.
http://qsi.cc/blog/archives/000144.html
Soulcatcher
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I don't like the way you try to justify the way thing are going over there, personally I don't like america at all.. On the other hand, i only watch the news and haven't done any research. You guys are fine lads and i'm sure there are a lot more like you. The image your country brings out iswrong for sure.
The thing is, I would feel a lot safer if i knew that 99.?% of the people around me is not carrying a gun. The numbers that are given here can be all kinds of shit. There is nothing said about the nature of those violent crimes. People can get guns, that is a fact. But if they carry it with them as 'protection' all the time, things can go wrong. What I'm trying to say is that here, in the netherlands, innocent people are less likely to die.
If i'm going out and get into a fight, i can be fairly sure that they will not be carrying a gun. And I'm happy about that because drunk people will have itchy fingers. So I'll wake up with some bruises or something..
The people that get guns over here, have a mission.. They prepare a long time and make the kill. I'm sure i'm not on someone's to kill list.. (well maybe one :twisted: ). Ofcourse, today's tragedy falls under this category as well, but I'm talking about the gun-use in general.
I hope someone can tell me how he/she thinks about this.
Greets, and good luck over there..
The thing is, I would feel a lot safer if i knew that 99.?% of the people around me is not carrying a gun. The numbers that are given here can be all kinds of shit. There is nothing said about the nature of those violent crimes. People can get guns, that is a fact. But if they carry it with them as 'protection' all the time, things can go wrong. What I'm trying to say is that here, in the netherlands, innocent people are less likely to die.
If i'm going out and get into a fight, i can be fairly sure that they will not be carrying a gun. And I'm happy about that because drunk people will have itchy fingers. So I'll wake up with some bruises or something..
The people that get guns over here, have a mission.. They prepare a long time and make the kill. I'm sure i'm not on someone's to kill list.. (well maybe one :twisted: ). Ofcourse, today's tragedy falls under this category as well, but I'm talking about the gun-use in general.
I hope someone can tell me how he/she thinks about this.
Greets, and good luck over there..
Entheonaut
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UTHTURN a dit:
It's not about the crime rate, It's about how many people die from firearms. You're talking about gun-related crimes. 63.4% Of the people die involving firearms in America, in the Netherlands thats 27% under females, and 41 % under the males. So less people are killed by firearms. (http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas...chief/2006/2006-2008-wm.htm?Languageswitch=on)
UTHURN a dit:
Not totally true, more violent crimes and more propertry crimes.
Edit:
UTHTURN a dit:
Hahaha :mrgreen:
UTHURN a dit:
We're just discussing something we disagree on, we have no problems in anyway mate :wink:
