Advice on where to go from here? Need help

[Caduceus Mercurius]

I don't understand why you have to refer to him as "uncle/aunty/granny Terry" all the time. Is it really necessary? I don't think so. You could of course take paragraphs from his books and show how they are faulty and misleading. That would be constructive criticism. From your current ways of talking about the man I'm not even sure if you really know the way he thought and spoke about his own theories.

 

[Meduzz]

I kind of agree with GOD, but on the other hand, I have never read any of McKenna's books... I did listen to some lectures but it didn't speak to me.

Can anyone tell me why Terrence was so important?
Shulgin and Hofmann are far greater "heroes" than Terrence imo. They provided materials and concrete knowledge that leaves plenty of space to explore and speculate... Terrence provided dogmas and thus narrowed down the experience right??

 

[Forkbender]

^Dude, seriously, 1 person cannot provide dogma. You need a community of insecure believers for that. I agree that too many people take him too seriously, though. What he says/writes is poetry and should be taken in that way.

 

[magickmumu]

^Dude, seriously, 1 person cannot provide dogma. You need a community of insecure believers for that. I agree that too many people take him too seriously, though. What he says/writes is poetry and should be taken in that way.

I Agree.

Menduzz
In what way do you think Terence Mckenna was being dogmatic and narrowing down the experience???

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Shulgin and Hofmann are far greater "heroes" than Terrence imo.

There is no need to compare psychonauts. It makes no sense to compare Alex Grey with Timothy Leary either. They have all contributed in unique ways. As much as I respect Albert Hofmann (indeed my first psychedelic experience ever was with LSD), his written or spoken words have had no influence on my enthusiasm for psychedelics, whereas McKenna (who is quoted and sampled all over the place) inspired me to start using mushrooms again, grow them, up the dose and go inward.

Can anyone tell me why Terence was so important?

1) What I liked about the very first lecture I heard from him was that whereas many psychonauts believe Indian gurus and methods of meditation can take you to the "same levels" as psychedelics, McKenna completely dismissed this. He utterly rejected the notion that India and Hinduism have much to offer to the Western seeker. I had come to the same conclusion, but never heard anyone speak about this as strongly as McKenna.

2) McKenna rejected all dogmas and didn't really believe any of his ideas should be accepted by anyone as final truth either. His speculations were never claimed to be final truths and he encouraged listeners to not accept any belief (whether religious or scientific) as permanent truths. McKenna often said that he didn't believe in or care about Atlantis, Lemuria, beings from a certain solar system etc., since none of these things can be proven.

3) McKenna was the first person to really speak and write at length about the cultivation and usage of Psilocybe cubensis mushrooms. He discouraged people from doing low doses ("dabbling with psychedelics") but instead encouraged them to take heroic doses. He suggested 5 grams was a heroic dose, which at the time of his writing and talking about it wasn't done by many.

4) He also encouraged people to go inward: to experience the mushroom trip in silence and darkness. That was new too, because up to that time the standard way of tripping was to get dosed and go to a Grateful Dead concert, or do something else outside (as shown in Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas, or as described in The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test, and still practiced by most teenagers and tourists in Amsterdam for example).

5) He spoke at length about language and culture, and how these relate to the psychedelic experience, especially mushrooms and ayahuasca.

6) Who has spoken more about DMT than McKenna? McKenna popularized DMT more than anyone else. And as far as the elves are concerned, McKenna always prefaced his description of the DMT experience with "My personal experience with this stuff is basically as follows. I know others have had different types of experiences, but this is how it usually is for me."

7) I had never heard a description of what a sitter should and should not do until I heard McKenna speak about it in one recorded conversation.

8] His stoned ape theory isn't that far-fetched, and it illustrates several important things about the role psychedelics have played in the shaping of human society.

These are just some of the reasons why the man should be respected, even though we may not agree with his words or style.

 

[druglessdouglas]

if you point and say "there is the moon" there are some people who will only look at the finger. Mckenna and the likes are fingers pointing at the moon

 

[Meduzz]

He gives the impression that he knows so much about psychedelic experiences that his way is the safe way, while it is probably just A safe way.
I actually meant that people who take him seriously live their experiences on his suggestion...

Personally I don't try to understand the psychedelic experience. I love the mystery and fantasy and those are actually the main reason I take psychedelics.
McKenna just keeps comming up with far-fetched theories that get on my nerves.

 

[Meduzz]

if you point and say "there is the moon" there are some people who will only look at the finger. Mckenna and the likes are fingers pointing at the moon

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
That's what I meant actually, thanks drugless

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

if you point and say "there is the moon" there are some people who will only look at the finger.

I could disprove that part of your theory this very evening. I could approach 100 people and point at the Moon. It's quite likely that everyone will look at the Moon rather than my finger. Similarly practically everyone listening to McKenna will one day go for a high dose.

Mckenna and the likes are fingers pointing at the moon

Whenever you say or write something, the same thing could be said about you. Should we therefore all stop talking and writing about psychedelics?

 

[druglessdouglas]

yes, i should. for the same reason. as it is i say as little as possible exactly because everyone is suggestable and i do not wish to interfere with anyones personal development. and i wasnt talking about you. its not you who resorts to insults when you feel threatened. i listen to what you have to say because you actualy have something to say

ps it was a metaphor

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

I understand it was a metaphor. And you accurately stated "some people", i.e. a small group. I don't understand why you included McKenna himself though (as in "McKenna and the likes") for he himself lived for the experience. He had some favorite authors and teachers (Marshall McLuhan, James Joyce, William Blake), but he wasn't a fanatic follower of any of them.

I wanted to point out that the "finger pointing at the Moon" problem is not so widespread amongst people who appreciate McKenna. You can certainly see it happening in groups worshiping a certain guru, or religious leader. The guru may talk about God and the divine, but all the disciples see and talk about is the guru.

But in the case of people appreciating McKenna, they ALSO appreciate Hofmann, and Shulgin, and everyone else. And in the end, they go through the psychedelic experience all by themselves.

its not you who resorts to insults when you feel threatened.

Some people will resort to insults no matter whose views they appreciate. McKenna himself never resorted to insults, and so he cannot be blamed for the rude behavior of certain fanatic individuals.

i listen to what you have to say because you actualy have something to say

Thanks. I appreciate your writings for the same reason.

 

[druglessdouglas]

i said he was a finger pointing at the moon, not that he was looking at the finger

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

i said he was a finger pointing at the moon

OK, but he also taught how to build a rocket to get there. :wink:

 

[druglessdouglas]

hehe. ive had an out of body experience on a big dose where i flew to the moon.it was very realistic. i didnt stay, there was no atmosphere.


JohnDoe_2012 we stopped talking about you ages ago and started bickering amongst ourselves.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

JohnDoe_2012 we stopped talking about you ages ago and started bickering amongst ourselves.

Not really. I agree that too much focus on one particular author or lecturer is not desirable, because they do put you in an extremely suggestible state while in the trip, so it is certainly possible that your trip is going to be negatively affected by that.

 

[GOD]

"From your current ways of talking about the man I'm not even sure if you really know the way he thought and spoke about his own theories."

I`m being ireverant , trying to destroy the blind faith that some people here seem to have...... in the bits that they picked out of some of his work . They seem to me to be ignoreing most of what he said and falling into the trap of having his trips again and not their own . They also seem to me to be taking to small doses sometimes . Thats why i have the T.M. quote under my posts . "If in doubt double the dose" . I have very much of his work , books , films and tapes and have listened / read and seen them all . The theorys about history / life and hyperspace he had were one thing , in my opinion things that should be split from what he said about the art of tripping .

T.M rejected all dogmas..... exept his own , didnt he get bogged down in it towards the end ?. But thats what i`m talking about . To many people think his ALL words were law / fact and dont allow themselves to have their own trips , they try to force themselves into their opinion about the small parts that they have seen from his work and thats why they often have strange trips .

I think he should be respected . But not worshiped and not seen as the be all and end all of psychedelics . We dont want a world full of T.M pseudo clones do we ?

" McKenna himself never resorted to insults, and so he cannot be blamed for the rude behavior of certain fanatic individuals. "

I can think of one time when he was in india sitting with two women tripping that he was in my opinion insulting and snobistic almost to the point of being rasistic . The one where he looks at his feet and trys to ignore the two indians walking in his direction . And no i`m not prepared to listen to all his tapes again to tell you wich one it was . If you know them you will know wich one i mean .

"JohnDoe_2012 we stopped talking about you ages ago and started bickering amongst ourselves."

Maybe thats positive and will give JohnDoe_2012 another perspective . Maybe it will help him to have his own trips and understand the conditioning part of set and setting . To meditate , forget everything and enter the trip as himself and not how he thought he should .

 

[JohnDoe_2012]

I've enjoyed reading the comments all the same, the good thing about disagreement is when ideas butt heads you seem to get a better understanding of the limitations of each.

I've only had 5 trips so I wouldn't pretend to be an expert on psychedelics who could prove or disprove anything Mckenna said. For me I find his work fascinating because just like Robert Anton Wilson or Dostoevsky I find him a kind of kindred spirit, someone who seems to 'get' things in a similar way I do or can articulate experiences I've had but which can be difficult to pass directly person to person due to the necessity for personal experience. When I find someone like that then it's only natural I will want to find out about their other thoughts, opinions or experiences to see if they also match up or will in the future.

I think there is a happy compromise to be found in the sense that while looking at the finger pointing the moon we miss the moon at the same time without a finger to point the way sometimes we can get lost or miss things altogether.

 

[GOD]

If you do that with people who are tripping they look at the finger . I dont , i just look at tits..........

 

[st.bot.32]

Maybe thats positive and will give JohnDoe_2012 another perspective . Maybe it will help him to have his own trips and understand the conditioning part of set and setting . To meditate , forget everything and enter the trip as himself and not how he thought he should .

Thats kind of why, being a relative newb to psychedelics myself (about 2 years of tripping) I just tended to expose myself to as many viewpoints as possible, as a way of understanding the basic effects of what I was getting myself into, without delving into personal interpretation. It didn't take me long to figure out that psychedelics can turn the world into a mirror that reflects yourself and your expectations (one acid trip actually )

I saw friends exposing themselves to the popular DMT literature these days and I know when they finally try DMT they will be taking it with very specific preconceived notions. (Of course if they were taking it with the proverbial grain of salt they should be, that would be a different story)

I actually purposely skipped reading McKenna before doing mushrooms just because I wanted to try mushrooms a few times first and see what I got out of them on my own. I'm definitely starting to find I have the very beginnings forming of my own take on things... but I'm still only scratching the surface after 2 years of psychedelic usage...

But I do understand why some beginners feel the need for the security of a shaman or guide, and McKenna can play that role I guess. Sort of like Leary could play that role with his writings on ego death.

...anyway I have really been enjoying this thread, diversions and all, much goodness in it and things I'm thinking about these days.

 

[GOD]

Throw someone who cant swim in a big lake with a book about swimming .

(My dad got told he was going to learn how to swim and was realy pleased untill his dad threw him in the wier........)

Baby birds on branches dont read books they just jump .