What is the Solution

[IJesusChrist]

Do you really want my answer? It's a long one.

 

[ophiuchus]

at least it's a nice shade of green. doesn't really get the message across to people on the fence imo though. i suppose at least the ones that don't like to think.

my abbreviated ver.: it's a statement to property owners that their building looks like shit, and if graffiti were legal, (people would probably be better at it) and the world would be a prettier place to look at, if not to deal with. down with anal-retentive people! long live flavor!

idk what pants is doing. being the annoying reminder... shit sucks

 

[ararat]

Please see

Exit through the gift shop - by Banksy
Bomb It

great movie! one that really showed me that a movie is about more than its storyline, or what it shows. took me surprisingly long to grok this, same for photography.
this movie says it is truthful, but then it gives you pointers that it is all staged, and you are left to decide for yourself. I choose the latter. the way the character of that guy was built in the beginning.. he talks about how he sells old adidas stuff with slightly different sewing as designer clothes and gets a ridiculous profit margin for that. some time later he stands in his insanely big gallery talking with someone about how much money he wants for the huge campbell soup/aerosol-can.
it seems to be a lot about the blind followership that takes place in art-circles, and how pseudo much of it is. sometimes I wonder how much of art appears just as a way of getting affirmation/a boost.


the only time I did graffiti they removed it and built a fence around the building afterwards :lol: a power transformer in the middle of nowhere. when I moved to Vienna I was thinking of picking it up again, but honestly I have no idea what I want people to see/read when they are walking through the streets.
there are a quite good ones at times. there is one that says in german that "live is beautiful", and right at that place most dog owners seem to let their dogs do their business.
http://www.matthiasaschauer.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/MABBLOG-52.jpg

sorry for all the offtopic I'm posting in here.

 

[IJesusChrist]

Allusion wrapped up my external points, and thank you for your wonderful input banana, I'm glad you have partaked in doing such good work heh. By the way - from a VERY reliable source, Exit through the gift shop is real. And banksy is a 45 year old over-weight man that is only seen once in the movie. the movie was also a joke on shepard ferry....

The point is that there are ideologies that are engrained in us very deep that are not natural laws - the idea of ownership, particularily without use. In example, that shop - someone owns that shop, but has not used it for some years. Why do they still own it? Well, probably because they want to make a profit from it for it's great location. I despise that type of thinking, and believe it is a very selfish way of going through life. Taking up ownership of land, particularily things the owner DOES NOT USE and labelling it as his own. Every chairman of every board of every company should be kicked right in the ass for the exact same thing.

Now, why I splash paint on a wall? It is a very complicated socio-geographical relationship. Where I am there are many college students. That shop is a very frequented corner - every college student that lives near me, 1000+ must see it. I solely left the green splash up there for about 2 months before I tagged it with Soap. The green represents my perception that the external property of a building that is to be used and facilitated by the public, will certainly be seen by the public eye. If there is no effore to entice, enlighten, or in anyway positively effect an individual when s/he enters this building, I take the idea that property ownership of a publicly facilitated building is up to the public.

I did green because it is my favorite color, it is bright, and it is very noticeable against a white, tan, beige and "egg shell" background of the city we all know. Every time someone sees more color they will regsiter (in a good or negative way) that someone is attempting to change the exterior of the visual world. That color will stick with them, however long, but it will change them, and like allusion said this is not enough to change someone's opinion on whether it is good or bad, but those who want to think, may. Those who are afraid will become more afraid, hopefully they will speak out, and a discussion can be made.

Why I tagged soap, and argueably why the other person tagged pants, is due to the completely seperate counter-culture of graffiti. There are two things you should see on that wall - street "art" (for lack of a better term) and graffiti. The soap is put there to increase my popularity within the counter culture - for me to be wanted, seeked by others. Those who know the feeling, who know what I'm talking about will understand. Those on the "top of the fence" or the other side will probably disagree, and label it as vandalism. GOOD. I hope graffiti is NEVER legalized on public property. Graffiti is vandalism, and I will continue to do it as long as it is such.

The splashing on the paint is a representation of the opression I feel within this system. It shows my contention and rebellion, and for those smart enough to look past the paint and into the eye of the painter, they will see a different story, a battle that has been going on since kings were kings and peasents were peasents. The Soap on the wall is for me, is for me and the proverbial "pants" writers, only. Graffiti will never die, and public property will always be contested.

It's not so simple is it?

 

[itsscience]

So many assumptions in that post it's hard to know where to start.

the idea of ownership, particularily without use. In example, that shop - someone owns that shop, but has not used it for some years.

Look into the legal principle of "adverse possession" it is a common law doctrine that is based on the belief that land is to be used an if it is not used then it should go to the person willing to use it. If that shop was vacant and you moved in there and used it like an owner or occupier would for 12 years then that land would become yours. Your little splash of paint is just that, a little splash of paint. I started this thread with a view to engendering discussion about how to actually replace the institutions of government with structures that will give us our freedom back. Throwing paint on things will not achieve that, if throwing paint on things speaks to anyone it speaks to those who don't have the power to effect change in any event. Once those who it does speak to develop more and more responsibilities 90% of them will be sucked into the mainstream and will forget about the "counter culture" you speak of.

I take the idea that property ownership of a publicly facilitated building is up to the public.

Well from a purely legal perspective it is not, whether you like it or not and throwing paint on things isn't going to change those laws.

The soap is put there to increase my popularity within the counter culture - for me to be wanted, seeked by others.

So you start off with seemingly purely altruistic aspirations but then reveal it's all about increasing your "infamy" (which probably stretches for a few blocks in your neighbourhood.

There are appropriate channels to contest property rights. Children write on walls and children rarely get listened to.

 

[Schwanke668]

Not entirely sure how to say what I want to say but I am about to attempt to say it anyway and hope that it gets said the way it should be said so that you can hear what I want you to see.

You guys are over thinking this.

The 'problem' as to why we cant find the 'solution' is about 'seeing' not thinking.

We (psychonauts) can see the solution because our veil is lifted or is in the process of lifting to greater or lesser degrees. The more your veil is lifted the easier it is to see the solution.

The problem is, like the matrix, 99% of society is not ready to be unplugged. They dont want to see the solution because they have become too dependent on the veil. You remotely lift the veil even a little bit and they flip out, get scared, smack down laws on psychedelics, etc.

If you want to help society reach the solution you have to find ways to get people to be willing to accept the lifting of their veil.

Again to the matrix, the scene where Mr. Smith talks about how the original matrix was a utopia and whole crops were lost. Beyond the veil is utopia. Pure understanding of Love and Thought. The problem is people are so afraid of what that means that if you force feed them Love and Thought they choke on it and die. I dont just mean dosing people which I think is a horrible thing but I also mean with political and religious views.

If anything I can see the idea of graffiti beng lead to lift the veil. But the langauge of the graffiti has to be in something that those with the veil can understand. You write the answer to the universe in german and the person only speaks english it will do them no good. With graffit that is geared towards lifting the veil if its 'too high' and 'too deep' it will get ignored. Too simple and too direct (Fuck the Man) and it will look childish and immature. It needs to reach into their minds and make them think, make them question their reality, make them wonder what they are missing.

This is why I wear my trippin hat. Plastered on my head is the solution. Everyone needs to be trippin! If more and more of society geared towards more and more understanding of the psychedelic then society would evolve in the direction of encouraging psychedelic exploration. If weed was legal everywhere there would be pot bars to smoke at, police on campus would take you home instead of lock you up, friends wouldnt be flipping out cuz your breakin the law they would come over and want some. Society would shift. Move that into the harder stuff like LSD and Mushrooms and you have the experience of people experimenting in safe environments in mass. 60s all over again.

But right now society is not ready to be 'unplugged' or 'loose the veil'. All we can do is encourage them and try and reach them and teach them and educate them and try and mess with their heads in just enough of a way that makes them wonder 'What does this person see that i am not seeing?" "Why is he happy doing that when it looks so boring yet I hate my life and I am dong what I always wanted to do as kid?" (What society programmed them to do yet they dont even know it.)

Anyway, my 2 grams.

 

[IJesusChrist]

I'm not going to respond to that, itsscience. If I saw your car I'd splash paint on it, too.

What does it accomplish? Exactly what I intend it to.

What does not splashing paint on that store do? Nothing. Stagnant. Lawful.

That reply pissed me off.

Schwanke made it all better.

 

[itsscience]

Unfortunately Schwanke we don't know what the solution is.

IJC, the truth can be painful sometimes.

 

[Schwanke668]

We dont know the solution at the literal level. The solution isnt something like do this do that do this do that, cut spending here, overturn laws there.

The solution is an experience of the process of navigating from a fucked up world to a utopian society and we CAN see it if we focus our minds and our thoughts ESPECIALLY during a psychedelic experience.

The pain in the ass part is bringing back a portion of it thats actually recognizble enough to be implementable.

The beauty of the psychedelic experience is that it puts you in touch with both yourself and the cosmos simultanously. God if you let it. And in this experience if you can focus your thoughts in the right direction you can 'see' into both space and time at a galactic level as opposed to just well 20 years from now we're gunna see a fall in the housing market blah blah blah.

Maybe I am speaking too much from my prophetic side and not the psychedelic side but when I close my eyes and focus my 'gifting' I can 'see' the solution as plain as day. Its nearly impossible to describe because it contains large components of time that has happened yet and decisions that people arent ready to make but if we could get the people to make the decisions as the time unfolds then the solution would be reached.

Shrug. Its something I've always been able to see and do just didnt know this was what it was until this conversation. Now that 'think' that I have seen for the last several years makes perfect sense.

 

[IJesusChrist]

Unfortunately Schwanke we don't know what the solution is.

IJC, the truth can be painful sometimes.

So can actually attempting to reply.

 

[IJesusChrist]

I'll try again. Here's my perspective.

You are a property owner. You own your house, or atleast are trying to pay it off. Did you buy the entire house? The land it sits on as well? I'm assuming that you are assuming that when you bought that house you signed a paper, and that you think you are entitled to that land which it sits on, and the house itself. They are yours because you payed for it.

Now, what backs up that paper? What if I don't agree with your paper - what if I think that you're sitting in ignorance, and your money was not worth the house, and other people need or would better use your house? What happens? Well, if I attempt to take action, you call the police - am I right? If I tried to steal your house from you, you would call the police immidiately and have me thrown in prison.

Ah, great - something far larger than you to mantain order. To maintain the possibility that you have a shelter in which you can return to after work. A place to make a meal to make you physically fit in order to maximize your work ethic. Good. Jeopordize that, and I'll get thrown in jail, and for good measure - I'm stealing your property.

What happens, say, if I splash paint on your house? What if, perhaps, I walk across your sidewalk every day of my life, every day - and your house is eggshell. It bothers me. Everything is eggshell. I don't like your eggshell house, I really don't like it, and I have to see it - every god damn fucking day. It hurts me - Every day, instead of being flaunted with beautiful trees, colors of flowers, a nice garden, nature - I get an off-white mass produced plastic coated house.

I splash your house. It makes me happy, my frustrations are relieved and every time I go to work or go outside I get to see a beautiful contrast of life and shit. Life, rebellion, plastered on a canvas of capitalism and a homogenized race. Instead of accepting your bullshit ignorance to what color does to the human brain, I have rebelled against it and put my own vision on your publicly viewed exterior.

What will you do now? Will you leave it up? No - this was an attack on you. A change to what you value as "yours". Someone has changed your house's exterior! How dare they. You bought that with money from your job. You signed that paper. You have an entire SYSTEM to back you up on that one, right? Right.

Now your neighbor puts up a giant "go home mexicans" sign in their yard. You have to walk past it every day. You have to see that sign every day. What are you going to do? Talk to the guy? Ask him to take it down? I doubt you would splash it... I wouldn't. He made that sign. He put his work into his sign, into that belief. I would speak to that guy, and ask him to take it down. If he did not I would refrain from further action - that sign is his property.

Your house? Did you make your house? Did you build that fucking house? Have you even PAINTED your house? If so, have you painted it a different color from what it was? Have you ever even thought of it?

If the truth comes out that you have painted your own house, or that you did build your own house, I would never even THINK of condemning it with pigment. You put your thoughts, your ideas, your passion into the building of that house - into it's exterior. But, if the truth is, that you bought that house, loaded it with your conspiciously consumed materials, and never painted it, nor thought of designing it yourself, I don't give two shits and I never will - you won't understand what SHOULD be yours and what shouldn't.

There is the question of ownership here. Do you own your ugly exterior, or does the community that has to walk by it every fucking day. "The Broken Window" idea applies here - more color, more vibrance, more acceptance. Ever been to a place where murals are everywhere, color is abound? It's a much nicer place, and the pedestrian leaves with a better image of the area, rather than white and tan houses.

Just because your grew up in the age of suburbia does not mean that the inner city kids with their paint and their cans are hoodlums. We aren't gangsters doing vandalism, we are expressing an art form, a rebellion, and an ideology that many of the older generation are not capable of seeing. The idea of the block-neighborhood, the nice fancy houses with plastic siding and perfect windows, trim that is impecable - disgusting.

Sometime the truth hurts! And if you can't see it, I don't care. If NO ONE can see it, I don't care. What I am doing, and many others are doing is always going to happen. It will never be accepted, and I like that. I like that I can always have something to fight against in this country. So . Suck a big one.

 

[itsscience]

You throwing paint on some obscure little corner of your world in no way makes me "suck a big one" and does very little, if anything, to the status quo that you think you're affecting.

To take your logic one step further, I come across you wearing clothes that I find aesthetically unappealling. You didn't make those clothes or design those clothes so therefore I should be entitled to throw paint on you and your clothes.

You're are taking a very childish and limited point of view to this whole issue. You're seeking, via your very limited recourses, to impose your personal view on the will of others. You presume to know the intent and circumstances of the owner of that house when you have no fucking idea about that person at all. For all you know that property has lain dormant because it belongs to someone who's been in a fucking coma for years or who is suffering some sort of debilitating illness or any other of a myriad of valid reasons as to why that person's property does not conform to your ideal.

I believe that there must be some way to change the current systems of government and corporate control. I do not believe, in my wildest imaginings that it will be achieved or even catalysed by urban grafitti. We are all entitled to exercise our will as we please and good on you for doing something that you think will achieve some sort of result but I will never agree with you that you are acheiving any sort of result.

 

[IJesusChrist]

Firstly- I would gladly accept your paint on my clothes. I accept my paint on my clothes. If you were so daring to do so, those clothes would be now a product of action, a product of a passion. A real ownership I would, or you would feel to them. Uniquely contributing to the structure, function, or appearance of a good is the ONLY way you can own something. Natives? Native's did not believe you owned the land - you were only entitled to it if you used it, made it, created it, changed it.

IF the person was in a coma, then the splash of paint on their house would in no way be an offense to that person in a coma - it would be a reminder that the property is being UNUSED and is DORMANT. Now it is the white european man that says he shall still own all his property even without use. To be extreme, the coma induced citizen, in their right mind, would sell that house, or atleast rent it to be of use to something. Not be lay dormant, take up space, and sight.

YOU are being childish here, for your refusal to see in the light of what is real. You are stuck in the urban scum of new york's yesteryears where graffiti was equal to vandalism. YOU need to grow up, and if you honestly cannot see the effects that graffiti have on the daily lives of the individual, SPECIFICALLY the youth, YOU are blind.

You will also have to contend with hundreds of professors who have all PROVEN the social CAPITAL that is given by graffiti. The social capital that is held by the arts on your door step.

You're being an ignorant old man right now, and I'm disliking your closed mindedness. All you are seeing is the paint - a negative action. You are not seeing the impetus behind the action.

Still, answer my question - have you painted your own house? Have you even thought about painting it a different color?

I have a thousand more arguements that bolster graffiti's right to your front lawn. Social capital, cultural capital, the neurology of color and vibrance, the neurology and psychology of the visualization of human action, the psychology of contrast, the psychology of CHANGE, the feeling of group integrity, community. What I am argueing here is the DEEPEST level of graffiti - property ownership. Who owns the facade of your house? The one who uses it the most. IT's not a black and white situation. Just because you bought your house and decorated it with your shiny dinglings doesn't mean the outside makes me feel good. I would never personally splash a house. I would a Hummer. And by the way, no "artist" (street or graffiti) would ever paint a house. A vandal would. I doubt you'd know that - you think we're all in the back alley, throwing rocks in windows and spraying "penis" on everything.

Your ignorance to the uprising of the underground movement of declaring visual medium on private and public property shows to me that you are not ready to find any TRUE solution. You are going to be forever searching for a self-righteous fix, atleast until you realize something about what makes and breaks community, what bolsters or hinders vibrancy.

If you STILL have some negative comment about graffiti use, I suggest you read a fucking book.

 

[itsscience]

I hope graffiti is NEVER legalized on public property. Graffiti is vandalism, and I will continue to do it as long as it is such.

The above is from one of your earlier posts.

You are stuck in the urban scum of new york's yesteryears where graffiti was equal to vandalism.

This is from your most recent post, so which is it?

Grafitti is not something new to your generation. 20 years ago I used to get stoned with mates and run around with spray cans spraying foolish slogans on public property. In the 80's grafitti artists became a fairly strong counter culture movement - to the extent that they used to make movies about grafitti and breakdance (see Electric Boogoloo, Gleaming the Cube etc). Unfortunately grafitti changed nothing about the system back then and won't do anything to change it now. Grafitti is not new, it's not something that belongs to your generation and is something that you will eventaully grow out of, usually because as you get older you realise that it is futile as a means of effecting change.

Now it is the white european man that says he shall still own all his property even without use.

Of course it is, whose regime do you think you are living in. You go to college or university, a college or university established and run by the white European man. Your garbage is collected using a system established and run by the white European man.

There are two ways to reform a legal/governmental system - by violent overthrow of the ruling elite or by using the current system itself to effect the changes. Graffiti is the resort of the disaffected youth and it serves its purpose in talking to some of those disaffected youth but while you continue to sit back in your armchair (probably in a house or dormitory owned by a white European man) thinking you're changing things by your "artistic" scrawlings you're preventing yourself from taking the sort of action that could lead to lasting change.

How many public lectures have you organised at your learning institution to speak to people who want change? How many signatures have you got towards starting a political party? How many leaflets have you printed out that detail your problems/solutions to "white european" man's world? You say you're trying to effect change, I say you're engaging in childish pursuits that will have little to no effect.

Now it is the white european man that says he shall still own all his property even without use.

I posted earlier on the legal doctrine of adverse possession - you have chosen to ignore that but if you hadn't you would have realised that the above statement is incorrect.

This was supposed to be a thread about how to effect serious change of the current political, legal and corporate institutions that bind us. Perhaps if you had have come along talking about doing away with the doctrine of separate legal entity and the corporate veil as it applies to company law then you could be engendering real discussion aimed at moving the movement forward or even come up with a method to remove finacial incentive from public office etc etc etc - these are the ways to effect real change, not throwing some paint around in a manner that could at best be described as dubiously aesthetic.

You will also have to contend with hundreds of professors who have all PROVEN the social CAPITAL that is given by graffiti.

Perhaps this comment would best be backed by some sources and a definition of "proven" - seems to me to be an impossible thing to prove.

I may be old, although one day I suspect you'll have the maturity to realise that mid 30's is far from old, but at least I'm being realistic.

 

[itsscience]

THE CORPORATE VEIL AND THE DOCTRINE OF SEPARATE LEGAL ENTITY

This is one of the biggest problems with our current systems.

The doctrine, in a nut shell, is that a company is seen as its own legal entity separate from the directors and shareholders of the company. The Corporate Veil is essentially a legal fiction that protects the directors of a company from liability for the actions of the company, despite the fact that it is the directors that make the decisions of the company. Whilst directors are not able to be held accountable for the actions of the company that they control and direct then corporations will continue to get away with their anti competitive and opressive behaviours.

If the directors of the truly large corporations were accountable for the actions of their companies then we would probably see much more responsible actions from those companies. After all, if Bill Gate's property and savings were liable to seizure by individuals wronged by the actions of his companies I dare say he would be more amendable to socially advantageous actions.

These doctrines are enshrined in the common law and in legislation in most western countries and one must use the current systems in order to be able to change the laws.

 

[IJesusChrist]

It is apparent that you have become too rusty to accept what I am trying to tell you.

The first two quotes you have posted - read them carefully.

" Graffiti is vandalism, and I will continue to do it as such. " You are the weilder of vandalism. Not I. I do not see it as vandalism - the old coots do. The people from the 80's who go around getting high and scribbiling shit on dumpsters think its vandalism.

"Graffiti is equal to vandalism in yesteryear" Yeah. It does. And thats why it is still vandalism in the eyes of those pre-80's born. You can't accept it because of your affiliation with it's old counter parts. Graffiti will always survive and it will always contest ideologies of people like you. Without contestation, society is stagnant. No matter how eutopian you reach, society will continually be contested. And to be honest, if that is really how you attempted graffiti - please do not go around saying that is graffiti - it hurts us really attempting to do something. What you are explaining is teenage vandalism, something far different. I can tell by your remarks you have no seen the real culture of graffiti, nor the culture of the contending socialite.

And you admit that politicians can change politics. Yeah, K. How is Obama's "change" treating you? You cannot accomplish jack shit with a 50/50 split, unless according to previous logic you can sum to greater than 100%...

How many public lectures have you organised at your learning institution to speak to people who want change? How many signatures have you got towards starting a political party? How many leaflets have you printed out that detail your problems/solutions to "white european" man's world? You say you're trying to effect change, I say you're engaging in childish pursuits that will have little to no effect.

I'm the president of the University's chemistry club. I talk every week about everything from big agriculture to big pharma to CO2 sequestering in rocks. Every time I speak my underlying theme is change is needed. How many public lectures have you given? Kids got you tied down, wife wants you at home. So tired after work.

Listen, man. I have nothing against you, but if your so indifferent to realizing the possibilities of what small actions can do, I'm not going to have respect for your ideologies and your assumed thoughts on "changing" anything. It ain't going to happen over night, and it's not going to happen by you writing your letters to your congress man.

Change will happen by social wealth - the eternal spring of social capital contesting that of currency capital. Abstract ideas like graffiti's place in society and vegetarianism's role in psychological implementation seem to just go through you. Keep writing to your congress man, keep watching CNN, keep driving your car on the freeway and getting mad at rush hour, it's not going to do shit.

I had an entire book which could enlighten you, however I seem to have recycled it.

Who do you think made that picture? Do you know where it is? It's in the white house.

Read:
In Place/Out of Place by Tim Cresswell

"Having neighbors who intervene in minor incivilities, such as kids skipping school or spraying graffiti lessens the liklihood of more severe crimes taking place" - Social Capital DAvid Halpern

"People with money can put up signs ... if you don't have money you're marginalized...you're not allowed to express yourself or to put up words or messages that you think other people should see. Camel (cigarettes), they're up all over the country and look at the message Camel is sending...they're just trying to keep the masses paralyzed so they can go about their business with little resistance." -- Eskae

"Graffiti writing breaks the hegemonic hold of corporate/governmental style over the urban environment and the situations of daily life. As a form of aesthetic sabotage, it interrupts the pleasant, efficient uniformity of "planned" urban space and predictable urban living. For the writers, graffiti disrupts the lived experience of mass culture, the passivity of mediated consumption." - Jeff Ferrell, Crimes of Style

Without a better understanding of why artists turn to graffiti, it is not surprising that the average person's image of a graffiti artist is far from accurate. A majority of people tend to associate graffiti with vandalism. They think most graffiti artists are hoodlums or gang-bangers with nothing better to do with their time. As this paper will show, vandalism and graffiti derive from very different motives and environments. Though there is sometimes a fine line between the two, this is what gives graffiti a more organic feel.

This can just keep going on and on...

 

[itsscience]

1. I have not said grafitti is vandalism - you did so yourself quite unambiguously and you went further to say it is the reason you do grafitti.

2. Yes grafitti will go on as it has done for pretty much the whole of human society. It may be a good social indicator but it will never be an instrument of change.

You have made so many assumptions about me that I'm not going to bother rectifying your misconceptions, I'd rather keep this discussion to it's original intent.

I have offered a couple of possible elements to the potential solution (removing financial incentive from public office and fixing liability of corporate entities on the individuals that control them) and you have offered your opinion on the ability of grafitti to influence people (we can safely agree that we disagree on that one). However I started this thread to try and find out if anyone out there had any practical ideas on what a replacement system should be or what elements it should have not on how to tell people that there is a problem that requires a solution.

Perhaps you're a right that I'm too old and rusty to get the point of a splash of green paint with a bar of soap and the word "soap" written on it. I actually think I just don't have the intelligence/lateral thinking to be able to understand what you meant by it without reading yours' and Allusions' explanation. In fact after reading the explanations I think the proportion of people who would understand it without the explanation would probably be only the top 25% (in terms of intellect) of the population.

I think it is great that you speak of these matters in your role as chemistry person and I apologise for assuming that grafitti was your only action plan. I believe it is high time that holistic solutions are proferred rather than mere rhetoric that there's a problem with the current system.

Lastly I'm not an American. America as a country and as a world power is in its death throes and I'm sure glad I don't live there. I agree that in a 2 party system it's very hard to effect change which is why I suggested starting a political party and it's also one of the reasons I started this thread, I won't be running on a platform of "it's broke and we need to fix it" I'll be running on a platform of "It's broke and this is how we fix it". In my country there are more than two political parties, yes it is dominated by 2 parties but we have others and over the last few elections some of those other parties, as well as independants, have been wining more and more seats.

 

[zezt]

I can tell you what I am doing to explore a solution.
I am interested in looking at propaganda.
I am aware that they--the 'management', the rich who wish to keep their power structure intact and not threatened by the 'irrational' and/or 'unwashed hordes of useless eaters'/slaves--not only build a prison on the outside, in the environment, but also inside each one of us via their 'education' system, etc. A good in-depth look how this is achieved checkout The Empty Child by John Taylor Gatto

Yeah, the whole point is they get us young! THIS is as much propaganda as the mass media which we are relentlessy subjected to throughout our lives also.

For me, entheogens are the sacred medicine that can help us see directly through this propaganda, and this is enlightenment also, but then we have to trust our visions and integrate it into our lives. But what the management do is they try and undermine the entheogenic experience.

Understand that in the timeline of history, it was the Christian church which demonized the entheogenic sacraments of native people. For many Europeans there was a long vast time when there was no knowledge of the existence of entheogens, and this was deliberate strategy. The powers-that-be do not want their slaves having knowledge and access to substances that can open eyes to what they are up to. The whole point of propaganda is that it must be un-known about, un-conscious.

But when the 'secret' really came out in the 1960s they had to use different tactics to undermine it. They couldn't then call it demonic which in the modern age is archaic, so using their pseudoscientific mechanistic dogma they claim that entheogenic experience has no meaning, and is just a 'chemical ride', and 'distorts reality' because we are just machines, and life has no fundamental meaning. So this is what I mean by undermine.
In my time online I have communcated with certain psychedelically experienced people who have reated the same toxic mantra. You will find many of this mindset at The Lycaeum forums particulary.
I find this the saddest encounter, because if sacred medicine dont wake em up what the fuk will? But this is an example of just how powerful propaganda can be, and how it can create the inner prison which the person may not even be aware of and will get very pissed off if you point it out---cause science told them so (in the past, and now for others, it was 'the Bible told me so'). So what is way out of this?

To have an eclectic interest in seeing connections. Being aware of feminist critiques of the patriarchal paradigm, of paranormal, of Ufology, of mythologies, of the war on drugs, of the myth of mental illness, of magick, of the corruption of the corporations and government, of the history of agriculture, of how you feel etc etc etc.

It is understanding that a big reason why past revolutions seem to just settle into the same old same old shit is because we are not looking deep into the myths surrounding us all.

For example in order to really feel at home in nature it is important to understand why we and many people aren't. This means understanding the myths/propaganda which have cut us off from our sense of feeling interelated with nature (which 'we' are). Christian authority did this by demonizing nature, and claiming it was the province of the 'Prince of Darkness', the 'Devil', and that we also had to be fearful of the pleasures of the 'Flesh'. So this was creating an inner prison---as in a divide and control--not trusting our very nature, and the natural world, our home, right?

Then when Science becomes the new dominator, the authority claims that we, animals, and nature, are machines and there is no meaning, and that the only thing worthwhile is being a dumb fuck consumer only concerned with material gain and believing the propaganda on the news and in their films etc.

So to begin--not takin my word for this--to explore all this for yourselves and in the very doing of this is the unlocking of the cell door. Yes the structures are still out there--there are prison cells waiting to lock us up if we are seen to be 'terrorists', and cops with electrocution devices to taser our arse, etc---but we have to be realistic and understand the CARE the management has given to building the prison we're in and that a very important part of it is making sure we police it ourselves on each other, and our children, by thinking what they want us to think! That is how they maintain it. So let us undo this and tell others as we explore this ourselves, and this will encourage radical changes of being and living...

 

[itsscience]

So to begin--not takin my word for this--to explore all this for yourselves and in the very doing of this is the unlocking of the cell door. Yes the structures are still out there--there are prison cells waiting to lock us up if we are seen to be 'terrorists', and cops with electrocution devices to taser our arse, etc---but we have to be realistic and understand the CARE the management has given to building the prison we're in and that a very important part of it is making sure we police it ourselves on each other, and our children, by thinking what they want us to think! That is how they maintain it. So let us undo this and tell others as we explore this ourselves, and this will encourage radical changes of being and living...

I agree with most of what you're saying here although we differ on one point. I don't see it as a matter of "they" who are doing this. I think that we are the victims not of our fathers but of everyone of our father's down to the dawn of civilization. We are stuck in a system not of the design of a few men in the last couple of hundred of years but of countless generations of ingrained "cultural learning" and practices. That which started out as Grok swapping a lizard for an apple with Gak has, over centuries, evolved into the complex and highly oppressive society we find ourselves constrained by.

Sure there's the Rockerfellers and their kind who wield huge influence and power on the government of some countries but not all countries. Yet no country is free of this oppressive system in some form or another. The system, the way of life is deeply ingrained in us from birth and for many (probably most) they'll never wake up. The fact that every little thing we take for granted (electricity, water, housing, cars, postal system, internet etc) is so intrinsically intertwined with this system means that changing it in any meaningful way is the biggest challenge the human race will ever face and is coincidentally the challenge the human race has faced for the last couple of thousand years - ever since some guy got nailed to a tree wandering around telling people just to treat everyone as you'd want to be treated.

It's a massive task and I agree with you zezt in that education, real education of the self, is the way to perceive the truths that I'm searching for. However, most people are lazy or just don't care enough to do it so that's why I believe an alternate system of ordering our daily lives needs to be invented that will take care of people and yet allow us the freedom to follow our true selves. I just don't know what the system could possibly be (other than everyone actually just treating everyone else how they'd like to be treated themselves - that would actually work exceptionally well (which is probably why the first guy who suggested it was called god).

 

[zezt]

I agree with most of what you're saying here although we differ on one point. I don't see it as a matter of "they" who are doing this. I think that we are the victims not of our fathers but of everyone of our father's down to the dawn of civilization. We are stuck in a system not of the design of a few men in the last couple of hundred of years but of countless generations of ingrained "cultural learning" and practices. That which started out as Grok swapping a lizard for an apple with Gak has, over centuries, evolved into the complex and highly oppressive society we find ourselves constrained by.

Actualy we agree then. I go way back looking at this too, but for simplicitiy sake I will often focus on ie., since Descartes, and his intro of philosophical mechanistic thinking and dualism. But of course the roots of this go to the dawn of civilization. A good example is the mythic Enuma Elish where the Babylonian god Marduk attacks Tiamat. This is one of first recorded accounts revealing the 'hero- warrior dissociated civilized mindset fightting nature which it considers feminine, the Mother.

Sure there's the Rockerfellers and their kind who wield huge influence and power on the government of some countries but not all countries. Yet no country is free of this oppressive system in some form or another. The system, the way of life is deeply ingrained in us from birth and for many (probably most) they'll never wake up. The fact that every little thing we take for granted (electricity, water, housing, cars, postal system, internet etc) is so intrinsically intertwined with this system means that changing it in any meaningful way is the biggest challenge the human race will ever face and is coincidentally the challenge the human race has faced for the last couple of thousand years - ever since some guy got nailed to a tree wandering around telling people just to treat everyone as you'd want to be treated.

Not sure what you mean 'ingrained from birth'? I dont believe that babies are born with this mindset, hence the need for their 'education'--pre-the enforced education system it would be warrior training and other forms of servitude.
I also think the Christian myth is part of the problem. Its a world-denying myth and its history is extremely violent and contradictory---you know, Jesus the man of 'peace'?!

It's a massive task and I agree with you zezt in that education, real education of the self, is the way to perceive the truths that I'm searching for. However, most people are lazy or just don't care enough to do it so that's why I believe an alternate system of ordering our daily lives needs to be invented that will take care of people and yet allow us the freedom to follow our true selves. I just don't know what the system could possibly be (other than everyone actually just treating everyone else how they'd like to be treated themselves - that would actually work exceptionally well (which is probably why the first guy who suggested it was called god).

People HAVE energy but because of propaganda and the oppressive nature of this system it gets suppressed, but if people can begin seeing through the propaganda which binds them energy comes.
When you take an entheogen what do you feel? without energy?