What is the best candy to put LSD on? (not taste-wise)

[GOD]

"I think it's best to drop on a womens nipples, you have to consume it right away though, but this is (till now) my favorite"

What a good idea !!! I`m drooling . But it wouldnt be so good for long term storage though !!!

 

[Guest]

I wouldn't have any problem consuming it right away

 

[GOD]

You would if i got there first !!!

 

[Guest]

Hmmmm, some drops on 2 perfect full b or c cups

OMG, I'm killing myself :retard:

 

[GOD]

"OMG, I'm killing myself "

I hope you dont get blisters on it !!!

 

[Guest]

Hahahaha, nutcase!

 

[Roeligan]

Now that is an interesting LSD consuming method, would like to try it for sure

"How about understanding the neurological effects a drug like LSD has on a rapidly developing brain? Predispositions or even full blown psychological disorders don't often show till later in life. How do you know the drug might not act as a catalyst? Furthermore, how would you like full blown ego-dissolution in a young person who hasn't even had the time to develop a complete identity to begin with?"

What a stupid argument . It aplys to everyone who takes drugs . Those predispositions you are fantasising about mostly , if not all , come from education and experienes made later in life . Kids arent born with mental problems they are gven them by people or society or inheritthem from their social and family backgrounds . Maybe you should start to think . Look here and see what i think :-

http://www.psychonaut.com/index.php?opt ... d4&lang=en

On this I don't agree with you GOD, experience can indeed cause psychiatric phenomena, but most psychiatric disorders are also genetically predispositioned.. anyway I don't think children should be given any (hallucinogenic) drugs, they can achieve a state of euphoria and connectedness with the world by other means than drugs, they don't need the drugs (yet)

 

[Forkbender]

experience can indeed cause psychiatric phenomena, but most psychiatric disorders are also genetically predispositioned..

Reductionist!
I don't think that either genes are static nor that genes can tell anything will happen in the future with 100 % probability. Genes are a reflection of your mind, which is largely formed through social structuring.

anyway I don't think children should be given any (hallucinogenic) drugs, they can achieve a state of euphoria and connectedness with the world by other means than drugs, they don't need the drugs (yet)

I agree that they have other means of achieving a special kind of state.

 

[GOD]

High Roeligan .

Did you read all i said in that thread ? I didnt say that children "need" psychoactive drugs anywhere . I am saying that it should not be totaly ruled out . That it should be possible in a responsible set and setting , especialy with profesional theraputicaly skilled experts .

"but most psychiatric disorders are also genetically predispositioned.."

Definately not most of them . Thats a theory . I thought that that was nazi theory from people like mengele that had been proved wrong and totaly rejected by modern science ??? Genetics proves that to be false , two mentaly ill people dont nesecerely have mentaly ill children . And name two people throughout the whole of history who have never had some sort of mental problems ? Some psychiatric disorders might be genetically predispositioned . But personaly i think that that is just an excuse for scientists that cant realy explain why some people have psychiatric disorders . Maybe a few percent are genetic , but by catching them and treating them early enough there would be more chance of helping someone than waiting untill their character / personality was fully formed when the chances of curing them have been proved to be next to zero . As you know most of the people in the world with psychiatric disorders are destined to spend their lives as psychiatric patients , they have a psychiatric carear , Lots of them are talked into it by their own psychiatrists . The point was not to "achieve a state of euphoria and connectedness with the world" , it was to keep all avenues of possible therapy open and not to fall into the same old fatal trap "Doctors know best" . The best way of describing what i mean is to use 4 analagys .

! :- The human mind / brain as a street map of a city . The more a road is used the more it grows and becomes a sort of main road and some become motorways . This is what makes the charakter / personality of a person . Catching that person before the wrong streets become motorways , that cant be removed or reprogramed at a later age , when they are building those roads at an early age , would be a much more sucsessfull way of solving their problems .

2 :- Think of Lions example . Some indigenous peoples around the world have given some of their children psychoactive drugs throughout the ages and have less cases of mental illness and social problems than us "civilised" ( syphilised ) people . They also had no "civilised Doctors" doing egoistic experiments with them and telling them , just because they have no idea how to help them , that they are incurable . Today modern psychiatric help mostly comes down to prescribing patients drugs wich only hide symptoms , and / or sedate the patients and / or make the patients more problems than they had in the first place . A lot of those patients become even more ill or are killed by the drugs that they have been prescribed by their own doctors to help them .

3 :- Look at the world today , the damage that doctors have done . Egoists who know better , gods in white jackets as they are called here , that have caused one of the biggest medical problems that we have today , totaly resistant bacteria . They thought that they were right , that they had a new magic tool called anti biotics to play with and gave it to people , and even new born babys , for every thing that a person can think off . They gave it to people for things that anti biotics can not cure , they gave it to people just to shut them up , just to fullfill patients wishes for a prescription or for their own egos . They gave them in to big or to small doses . They didnt fill the standards of hygene in their workplace . Because they knew better , because they didnt think enough about the concequencys of what they were doing . Now we have multi resistant bacteria , and most of them are at home in hospitals . People have a bigger risk of becomming infected by them in hospitals than anywhere else .

4 :- In the world now many children with social problems are branded with the psychiatric mode diagnosis ADS ( Atention Deficiensy Syndrom ) , they are said to be hyperactive . When the real problem is not that they are not atentive enough , its that they dont get enough atention from their parents and / or teachers and / or society . Or at least not the atention that they as individuals need . And look how many egoistic , helpless , hopeless , ignorant doctors prescribe those children Ritalin or Prozac . Drugs that have had no real long term tests to prove their efectiveness or safety for treating children . Drugs that dont solve any problems , they just mask the symptoms . Sxmptoms that often break out at a later age . Did you know that most of the children that have done the masacers in american schools have been previously prescribed those drugs by their doctors ?

" experience can indeed cause psychiatric phenomena"

Yes it can , but personal experience and how those people have been trained to deal with it is one of the main reasons that posible predispositions become magnifyed to become full blown mental illness . If the situation is so helpless as you describe , that its mostly genetics , what do you think we should do . Stop all treatment for people with psychiatric problems because there is no cure ? Castrate or kill all mentaly ill people ? Kill babys with theoretical dispositions ? = Every time a doctor proves his ignorance , the limits of his knowledge , his helplesness and cant help someone just declair that person to be incurable because of their genetics ?

Love GOD

 

[thadivine]

4 :- In the world now many children with social problems are branded with the psychiatric mode diagnosis ADS ( Atention Deficiensy Syndrom ) , they are said to be hyperactive . When the real problem is not that they are not atentive enough , its that they dont get enough atention from their parents and / or teachers and / or society . Or at least not the atention that they as individuals need . And look how many egoistic , helpless , hopeless , ignorant doctors prescribe those children Ritalin or prosac . Drugs that have had no real long term tests to prove their efectiveness or safety for treating children . Drugs that dont solve any problems , they just mask the symptoms . Sxmptoms that often break out at a later age . Did you know that most of the children that have done the masacers in american schools have been previously prescribed those drugs by their doctors ?

Hmm, once got a paper with what ADD (-in dutch- i think its the same as ADS? its with the hyperactivity of ADHD turned inside), i nearly got all the things mentioned there...(except i DO like to play sports ^^).
I have never gone to a doctor with it or whatever...Anyway, i don't like to put it into a box so much, but it was really something for me like: so hmm, thats whats "different" with me...
Anyway, no way i will touch prozac or anything when they would subscribe it to me... Its seems like psychedelics is a far better "medicine"...

By new age type of ppl i was called indigo child, seems quite similar too.. i DO have a past too with ghosts and stuff...at a really young age and things, i was "diffferent" cause i knew ghosts exist..(now im not so sure anymore but oh well-i think in an interdimensional kind of way they do, but i wouldnt call them ghosts). Have got a long time fear problems with this all.

I also seem to be "naturally high" and "naturally trippin". Many people think im stoned when im just sober and i ALWAYS have CEV's, in a more or less failed aya trip a friend of mine told me he did really see patterns while he usually just see's black when he closed his eyes..well I dont, I always see shit with my eyes closed, thats probably why weed gives me CEV so quick too (theyre really recognisable patterns then, even more on shrooms, and more colored.)

Also when i close my eyes i can see whats around like 10 seconds after i close my eyes..

Got obsessions in the past too: Butterflies, Mushrooms (just mushrooms, nothin to do with trippin) and fossiles, and ive always been around aduult people as well as kids from my age from time to time, always been a "nature kid", loved to walk through nature everywhere (usually with adults coz kids mostly dont like that...).

Heh quite a biography here...just needed to get rid of it i guess ^^

grttz

 

[Roeligan]

Reductionist!
I don't think that either genes are static nor that genes can tell anything will happen in the future with 100 % probability. Genes are a reflection of your mind, which is largely formed through social structuring.

I can tell you genes don't change from the moment your fathers sperm-cell fused with your mothers egg-cell. You are right in the opinion that genes can't tell everything but they can tell some things with 100% probability, the colour of your hair and eyes and your gender for instance.
And to be precise, I didn't say genetics say wether you will have a psychiatric disorder, but they predisposition, so some genes can raise the chance at some genetic disorders

High Roeligan .

Did you read all i said in that thread ? I didnt say that children "need" psychoactive drugs anywhere . I am saying that it should not be totaly ruled out . That it should be possible in a responsible set and setting , especialy with profesional theraputicaly skilled experts .

Neither do I want to rule anything out, but in the lifetime of you and me humanity will not know enough of the mechanisms of thought to rule out every danger and I don't think we should put a young life willingly in a place with any danger..

"but most psychiatric disorders are also genetically predispositioned.."

Definately not most of them . Thats a theory . I thought that that was nazi theory from people like mengele that had been proved wrong and totaly rejected by modern science ??? Genetics proves that to be false , two mentaly ill people dont nesecerely have mentaly ill children . And name two people throughout the whole of history who have never had some sort of mental problems ? Some psychiatric disorders might be genetically predispositioned . But personaly i think that that is just an excuse for scientists that cant realy explain why some people have psychiatric disorders .

You have a Freudian way of thinking and Freud has at quite some points been proven wrong. He believed that (almost) all behavioral traits are the result of traumatic happenings in ones early life or driven by (sexual) lust.
Again this is about predisposition, two mentally ill people don't necessary have a mentally ill child, just because there are other factors, and hallicunogen use could be one of them. Again more research needed

Maybe a few percent are genetic , but by catching them and treating them early enough there would be more chance of helping someone than waiting untill their character / personality was fully formed when the chances of curing them have been proved to be next to zero . As you know most of the people in the world with psychiatric disorders are destined to spend their lives as psychiatric patients , they have a psychiatric carear , Lots of them are talked into it by their own psychiatrists .

You wan't to genetically screen the entire population of this world for psychiatric predispositioning?? would you want to know that your chance of getting a psychotic episode was two, three or 10 times greater than the average human? THAT would be a way of talking people into a psychiatric career.

! :- The human mind / brain as a street map of a city . The more a road is used the more it grows and becomes a sort of main road and some become motorways . This is what makes the charakter / personality of a person . Catching that person before the wrong streets become motorways , that cant be removed or reprogramed at a later age , when they are building those roads at an early age , would be a much more sucsessfull way of solving their problems .

It could be, but blowing a hole in a street that leads in the right way and is about to become a motorway would be a waste of a "beautiful" x) future-motorway. And again noone knows how administration of a hallucinogen will work out, it can lead to the construction or destruction of any straat/motorway.

2 :- Think of Lions example . Some indigenous peoples around the world have given some of their children psychoactive drugs throughout the ages and have less cases of mental illness and social problems than us "civilised" ( syphilised ) people . They also had no "civilised Doctors" doing egoistic experiments with them and telling them , just because they have no idea how to help them , that they are incurable . Today modern psychiatric help mostly comes down to prescribing patients drugs wich only hide symptoms , and / or sedate the patients and / or make the patients more problems than they had in the first place . A lot of those patients become even more ill or are killed by the drugs that they have been prescribed by their own doctors to help them .

This is a point, but I would like to see prove that people then (or there) were (are) saner than modern-day people. (for the rest of this point I will asume that we are talking about early(ier) civilisation)
Early civilisation consisted of much fewer individuals than our modern 6-billion-people-world and there were no databases or whatever to keep track of mental illness and an eventual link to hallucinogen usage.
By the way I don't think hallucinogen usage causes any illness if done proper by a non-predispositioned full-grown person, and I have got at least one scientific articles supporting this believe.
And the point about only hiding symptoms, why would anyone with for instance very frightning or angring visual hallucinations as symptom of his schizophrenia want to live with these symptoms if not necessary? If he can't be cured a doctor can at least take away some of the negative symptoms..

3 :- Look at the world today , the damage that doctors have done . Egoists who know better , gods in white jackets as they are called here , that have caused one of the biggest medical problems that we have today , totaly resistant bacteria . They thought that they were right , that they had a new magic tool called anti biotics to play with and gave it to people , and even new born babys , for every thing that a person can think off . They gave it to people for things that anti biotics can not cure , they gave it to people just to shut them up , just to fullfill patients wishes for a prescription or for their own egos . They gave them in to big or to small doses . They didnt fill the standards of hygene in their workplace . Because they knew better , because they didnt think enough about the concequencys of what they were doing . Now we have multi resistant bacteria , and most of them are at home in hospitals . People have a bigger risk of becomming infected by them in hospitals than anywhere else .

I totally agree with you on the point that way too many antibiotics are given for small illnesses, this COULD lead to omni-resistent bacteria, but it hasn't yet. I know of some multi-resistent bacteria strains, but these bacteria DO react to some antibiotics we have left. But to put this point back in our original discussion: these doctors would be the ones that would administer the drug to our children and the ones that would guide them through their psychedelic experience, should we want that..?

4 :- In the world now many children with social problems are branded with the psychiatric mode diagnosis ADS ( Atention Deficiensy Syndrom ) , they are said to be hyperactive . When the real problem is not that they are not atentive enough , its that they dont get enough atention from their parents and / or teachers and / or society . Or at least not the atention that they as individuals need . And look how many egoistic , helpless , hopeless , ignorant doctors prescribe those children Ritalin or prosac . Drugs that have had no real long term tests to prove their efectiveness or safety for treating children . Drugs that dont solve any problems , they just mask the symptoms . Sxmptoms that often break out at a later age . Did you know that most of the children that have done the masacers in american schools have been previously prescribed those drugs by their doctors ?

I agree with you on the point that children shouldn't be given any drug except when diagnosed with a serious illness, I think this is lazyness of the parents: "our childs costs too much time, let's make it somewhat slower" and this can't be a good thing.
About the schoolshootings and prescription-drug usage, this can be seen in two ways:
Or the drug makes the child into a violent killer, but I think it is much more likely that the illness that the child got the medication for causes it to be violent.

" experience can indeed cause psychiatric phenomena"

Yes it can , but personal experience and how those people have been trained to deal with it is one of the main reasons that posible predispositions become magnifyed to become full blown mental illness . If the situation is so helpless as you describe , that its mostly genetics , what do you think we should do . Stop all treatment for people with psychiatric problems because there is no cure ? Castrate or kill all mentaly ill people ? Kill babys with theoretical dispositions ? = Every time a doctor proves his ignorance , the limits of his knowledge , his helplesness and cant help someone just declair that person to be incurable because of their genetics ?

Love GOD

You are right in the mechanism of a predisposition becoming a full-blow psychosis or another illness, but to bring this back to the hallucinogens and especially in children: I don't think they should be given anything, because nothing is known about eventual predispositions the child can have and no need to take unnessecary risks is there?

Anyways, RESEARCH is what I mostly mean by this awfully big piece of writing. This whole dicussion is theoretical and I think more research should be done on any of the subjects discussed.
Please, don't feel offended by what I've written here, as I said most of what I've written is theoretical and needs prove by independant scientists.

Love,
Roel

PS if anyone has any scientific material in any corner of the neurological/psychiatrical and any other medical sciences, please PM me, maybe we can exchange some things
PPS This thread is really beginning to get out-of-hand off-topic

 

[GOD]

Thadivine ,

Sounds like ADD and ADS are the same thing , kids that cant sit still , cant concentrate and are trying to do 10 things at once.........i`ve still got it now !!! , and you sound happy and tripy enough not to need drugs . What is CEV please ?

Roeligan ,

"so some genes can raise the chance at some genetic disorders "

Yup , and the operative word is "can" , sometimes .


"Neither do I want to rule anything out, but in the lifetime of you and me humanity will not know enough of the mechanisms of thought to rule out every danger and I don't think we should put a young life willingly in a place with any danger.. "

What do you mean , lets stop having kids and kill all the ones we already have to save them from theoretical danger !!! Life is full of theoretical dangers , matches , bycycles ....blah , blah , blah ......If we make a list of possible dangers in life and then order them in order of most dangerous first and then work down there would be zillions of them and psychedelics responsibly used would be nowhere near the top .

"You have a Freudian way of thinking"

Are you trying to say that i`m a wanker ???? ( It was a joke ) . Maybe some of what i say could be interpreted as freudean but i dont agree with him about traumatic experiences , other than birth itself , or sexual drives beeing a big factor in causing problems in later life . I think that the sex bit was probably more of a projection by him , reflecting his own personal problems and guilt complexes , and those of his clients . They were mostly middle class german speaking jewish women . I am nearer to Jung .

"there are other factors, and hallicunogen use could be one of them. Again more research needed "

That research would have to involve giving kids hallucinogens !!!! And to make any sense it would probably have to involve deliberatly caused difficult experiences in some children and their effects . Or just to do it properly , like i said and see how many have a good time and how many had a difficult time . And see the effects on them in their later lives .

"You wan't to genetically screen the entire population of this world for psychiatric predispositioning?? would you want to know that your chance of getting a psychotic episode was two, three or 10 times greater than the average human? THAT would be a way of talking people into a psychiatric career. "

I didnt mean that , that would be stupid . But the chances that a kid would have a psychiatric carear in its later life would be diminished by the responsible use of psychedelics in early life . That was your weakest argument up till now .


"It could be, but blowing a hole in a street that leads in the right way and is about to become a motorway would be a waste of a "beautiful" (Mad) future-motorway. And again noone knows how administration of a hallucinogen will work out, it can lead to the construction or destruction of any straat/motorway"

Its starting to look to me like you are projecting your unfounded , or at least your own personal fears of hallucinogens on children and you have been conditioned and they havent . Who is talking about blowing holes in kids heads , do therapists do that ? And no one knows what would happen if one didnt do it either . But the fact that adults and young adults that do it now without any profesional help mostly dont have a difficult experience inspite of their conditioning speaks for itself . So does the fact that people who do hallucinogens with curanderos and in scientific tests have even less of a chance of having a dificult experience .

"This is a point, but I would like to see prove that people then (or there) were (are) saner than modern-day people. (for the rest of this point I will asume that we are talking about early(ier) civilisation) Early civilisation consisted of much fewer individuals than our modern 6-billion-people-world and there were no databases or whatever to keep track of mental illness and an eventual link to hallucinogen usage.
"

We are the proof , we are the databank . There used to be less people , less tabus about "drug" use and probably a bigger percentage of people using drugs in past times .


"And the point about only hiding symptoms, why would anyone with for instance very frightning or angring visual hallucinations as symptom of his schizophrenia want to live with these symptoms if not necessary? If he can't be cured a doctor can at least take away some of the negative symptoms.."

Most pschizophrenics dont get cured , as i said , they get their symptoms masked with psycho pills . I`m talking about helping them to acept their condition and helping them to learn to live with it instead of pushing it under the carpet with pills , thereby giving them a guilty conscience about being "ill" and them not being able to function as well as if they were not sedated , and them knowing that if they stoped taking their pills the problems would come back . I know two people who had pschizophrenic problems , voices in their heads . The doctors could only convince them that they were sick , give them a guilty conscience , make them think that their position was uncurable and hopeless and make them feel even worse . I taught them how to live with it and how to keep it under controll and not let it get the upperhand and both got much better .

"COULD lead to omni-resistent bacteria, but it hasn't yet. I know of some multi-resistent bacteria strains, but these bacteria DO react to some antibiotics we have left."

Not true !!! There are multi resistant bacteria that no known anti biotic or combination of anti biotics can kill . Some can be killed by new a generation of drugs , but they arent anti biotics , and some can be treated with phages . With some its a case of isolation , praying and disinfecting everything with very hard chemicals .


"But to put this point back in our original discussion: these doctors would be the ones that would administer the drug to our children and the ones that would guide them through their psychedelic experience, should we want that..? "

No . We would have properly trained people , people like Timothy Leary , and curanderos and their sucess has been proved over thousands of years .


"I agree with you on the point that children shouldn't be given any drug except when diagnosed with a serious illness"

I`m not saying that either . Personaly i think that it should / would be possible to have trips with some children , but its not a must . As i said it didnt hurt my daughter or any of the kids i have had tripos with or any of the kids that i have heard about that have had trips .

"I don't think they should be given anything, because nothing is known about eventual predispositions the child can have and no need to take unnessecary risks is there? "

So lets kill them then to save them from posssible dangers !!!!

"Anyways, RESEARCH is what I mostly mean by this awfully big piece of writing. This whole dicussion is theoretical and I think more research should be done on any of the subjects discussed. "

Thanks for agreeing with me !!! Thats `part of what i`m sying , but that would mean giving children psychedelics !!!

"Please, don't feel offended by what I've written here, as I said most of what I've written is theoretical and needs prove by independant scientists. "

I dont feel offended , i like a good discussion , i feel backed up in what i said by the things that you have said . If you read what you have said and think about it i think you will see that you have said more for my argument than against it !!!!


"This thread is really beginning to get out-of-hand off-topic"

But it sure is fun . I must admit i think i have come out of this discussion with the over hand . I`m sitting laughing and rubbing my hands !!!!

Love GOD

 

[Roeligan]

Hmm, we'll see about that overhand
I'll gove you sometithing to read for the rest of the week
This time with references, if you had some, I would like to see your points supported (or proven faulty) with scientific evidence, not anecdotal..

Rest of this post is coming (probably this afternoon)

 

[thadivine]

Thadivine ,

Sounds like ADD and ADS are the same thing , kids that cant sit still , cant concentrate and are trying to do 10 things at once.........i`ve still got it now !!! , and you sound happy and tripy enough not to need drugs . What is CEV please ?

In holland we have two different things named ADHD and ADD. ADHD is with the hyperactivity part, ADD is hyperactivity turned inside, waht it actually means is a little hard to describe but i guess you get it ^^ ?
Anyway, many people say im really "zen" and i guess thats cool, i always am the guy who stays calm and tries to fix things between people, when someone walks at the back, i go back a little to let him stay with us too, and stuff

Perhaps i sound happy and trippy enough without drugs, but the thing is Psychedelics absolutely fascinate me, and Id like to experience inner, as well as outer life and learn as much about both as i can. Psychedelics is a good way to experience inner life fully and learn much out of it too.

I think its the fascination for the unknown and spiritual ive always had that finally found his home. As i learned more about psychedelics and experienced it some times now I really found that this has future for me. Its omething idd like to explore fully and i think i will continue with it for a long time untill ive learned truly what i must learn and learn to enjoy life fully, in all its ways.

Anyway, so i perhaps don't really "need" drugs, but still idd like to use em once in a while when i find the need to or like to.

CEV= closed eye visuals. Sometimes flowing into the outside world and back too So im actually continuosly trippin a little... But thats ok ^^ as long as it doesnt get too intense ^^. I actually get pretty intense body rushes all the time without anything that triggers them..

grttz

 

[Roeligan]

ok GOD, here it comes:

Yup , and the operative word is "can" , sometimes .

True, but then we are back in the sense of: should we put children in the position where they CAN get experiences which way be a trigger for predispositioned psychiatric illnesses

What do you mean , lets stop having kids and kill all the ones we already have to save them from theoretical danger !!! Life is full of theoretical dangers , matches , bycycles ....blah , blah , blah ......If we make a list of possible dangers in life and then order them in order of most dangerous first and then work down there would be zillions of them and psychedelics responsibly used would be nowhere near the top .

Yes, there would probably be not very much danger of giving a child a psychedelic drug, but NOT giving the drug would be even less dangerous. Why give it?

Are you trying to say that i`m a wanker ???? ( It was a joke ) . Maybe some of what i say could be interpreted as freudean but i dont agree with him about traumatic experiences , other than birth itself , or sexual drives beeing a big factor in causing problems in later life . I think that the sex bit was probably more of a projection by him , reflecting his own personal problems and guilt complexes , and those of his clients . They were mostly middle class german speaking jewish women . I am nearer to Jung .

Well I don’t like Jung very much, his theories are a bit scary in his Nazistic thinking. But now we start talking about opinions, which are not provable and thus can’t be arguments in a discussion

That research would have to involve giving kids hallucinogens !!!! And to make any sense it would probably have to involve deliberatly caused difficult experiences in some children and their effects . Or just to do it properly , like i said and see how many have a good time and how many had a difficult time . And see the effects on them in their later lives .

I really hope you are joking, why not first experiment on mature people. If that proves to be absolutely without risks and with benefits which can be pointed out clearly, then we could start THINKING about testing on innocent children.

[quote}
I didnt mean that , that would be stupid . But the chances that a kid would have a psychiatric carear in its later life would be diminished by the responsible use of psychedelics in early life . That was your weakest argument up till now .
[/quote]
Thank GOD you didn’t mean that :wink:
And I would really like to see the evidence (scientific please, not anecdotal) of psychedelic use diminishing chances of getting psychiatric illnesses.

Its starting to look to me like you are projecting your unfounded , or at least your own personal fears of hallucinogens on children and you have been conditioned and they havent . Who is talking about blowing holes in kids heads , do therapists do that ? And no one knows what would happen if one didnt do it either . But the fact that adults and young adults that do it now without any profesional help mostly dont have a difficult experience inspite of their conditioning speaks for itself . So does the fact that people who do hallucinogens with curanderos and in scientific tests have even less of a chance of having a dificult experience .

And it looks to me that you are projecting YOUR unfounded believes that psychedelics are magical cures for any mental illness and have never done any harm to anyone ever in this world.
I would like to add that I don’t think therapist blow holes in children (don’t hope so anyway) but every untested therapy can have unpredicted outcomes, like destroying some good (or bad) thinking pattern of a child (no reference, pure hypothetical).

We are the proof , we are the databank . There used to be less people , less tabus about "drug" use and probably a bigger percentage of people using drugs in past times .

What do we prove then?
You say that psychedelic usage is not harmful because mankind still exists. I could say the same about drinking for example Datura tea, people have done that for quite some centuries now, but mankind did survive that. I assume that you wouldn’t say Datura should be given to children.

Most pschizophrenics dont get cured , as i said , they get their symptoms masked with psycho pills . I`m talking about helping them to acept their condition and helping them to learn to live with it instead of pushing it under the carpet with pills , thereby giving them a guilty conscience about being "ill" and them not being able to function as well as if they were not sedated , and them knowing that if they stoped taking their pills the problems would come back . I know two people who had pschizophrenic problems , voices in their heads . The doctors could only convince them that they were sick , give them a guilty conscience , make them think that their position was uncurable and hopeless and make them feel even worse . I taught them how to live with it and how to keep it under controll and not let it get the upperhand and both got much better .

Schizophrenia is indeed not cure(d/-able) in most cases, but if using the right medication, people can live again without the fear of being taken over by a demonic voice telling them to slaughter their family or jumping in front of a train. If these patients would be thought to accept their condition, they would eventually start to accept the voices and maybe even act like the voices tell them to. That wouldn’t be helpful for them..
(But I don’t see the point of this argument in the bigger discussion on children and hallucinogens)

Not true !!! There are multi resistant bacteria that no known anti biotic or combination of anti biotics can kill . Some can be killed by new a generation of drugs , but they arent anti biotics , and some can be treated with phages . With some its a case of isolation , praying and disinfecting everything with very hard chemicals .

True! All known bacteria are at least sensitive to gentamicin, only problem is that that causes deafness in the user..

No . We would have properly trained people , people like Timothy Leary , and curanderos and their sucess has been proved over thousands of years .

Where do you think to find hundreds if not thousands of Timothy Leary’s?

"I agree with you on the point that children shouldn't be given any drug except when diagnosed with a serious illness"

I`m not saying that either . Personaly i think that it should / would be possible to have trips with some children , but its not a must . As i said it didnt hurt my daughter or any of the kids i have had tripos with or any of the kids that i have heard about that have had trips .

This point was about the prescription of Ritalin and Prozac if you would read it a little better :wink:

So lets kill them then to save them from posssible dangers !!!!

I think death is mostly a cause of exposure to a UNNECISSARY danger, read careful, possible and unnecessary have distinct meanings

Thanks for agreeing with me !!! Thats `part of what i`m sying , but that would mean giving children psychedelics !!!

Not so fast! It would mean testing on full-grown people and if that would prove harmless and even beneficial THEN start testing on children

I dont feel offended , i like a good discussion , i feel backed up in what i said by the things that you have said . If you read what you have said and think about it i think you will see that you have said more for my argument than against it !!!!

I’m not sure, I absolutely say NO hallucinogens for children unless scientifically PROVEN to be harmless and even beneficial.


[quote}
But it sure is fun . I must admit i think i have come out of this discussion with the over hand . I`m sitting laughing and rubbing my hands !!!!
[/quote]

Glad you’re having a good time there! But don’t be too hasty claiming victory :wink:

Love,
Roel

 

[GOD]

" I would like to see your points supported (or proven faulty) with scientific evidence, not anecdotal."

Me to , scientific evidence to your anecdotal reply would mean doing tests !!!!!. Thanks that you agree with me again . I`m smiling even more now !!! As i said i had the over hand i was being diplomatic !!!! Up till now you have done as much for my argument and as much against your argument as i have done . Thanks . Smile please !!!!

"i always am the guy who stays calm and tries to fix things between people, when someone walks at the back, i go back a little to let him stay with us too,"

Me to . I help the weeker ones and fight the bullys if thats the only way to stop them pushing people around .

"CEV= closed eye visuals."

Thanks , now i understand .

 

[Roeligan]

" I would like to see your points supported (or proven faulty) with scientific evidence, not anecdotal."

Me to , scientific evidence to your anecdotal reply would mean doing tests !!!!!. Thanks that you agree with me again . I`m smiling even more now !!! As i said i had the over hand i was being diplomatic !!!! Up till now you have done as much for my argument and as much against your argument as i have done . Thanks . Smile please !!!!

I'm not sure you've read my tekst, don't think so, you would see why I don't agree on doing tests on children.. But if your point isn't giving psychedelics to children, then you might be right, but then I would have misunderstood you the entire thread..

And I'm smiling aswell, I love an intellectual challenge

Love

 

[Monochromatic_Knight]

What a stupid argument . It aplys to everyone who takes drugs . Those predispositions you are fantasising about mostly , if not all , come from education and experienes made later in life . Kids arent born with mental problems they are gven them by people or society or inheritthem from their social and family backgrounds . Maybe you should start to think .

Thanks Roeligan, I'm glad I didn't have to go through all that typing to demonstrate to "GOD" that my argument isn't "stupid" and that I've "started to think".

"GOD": I share much of your disdain for modern psychiatry and psychology, but I wouldn't be so hasty to throw out the 'baby with the bath water', so to speak. Modern neurology and biological psychology can reveal much about the pharmacological action of psychedelics which currently remain somewhat unknown to us. [1] Why else support such studies as Amanda Fielding's, who is looking at "dose-related changes in consciousness using electroencephalography (EEG). Investigating the hypothesis that LSD induces increased synchronization in the electrical activity between neurons, and that this enhanced neural synchrony, plus increased integration of activity between cortical regions, will be linked with changes in cognition."

[1]The reason why we lack so much information about psychedelics, as you know well, is because they are scheduled as having "no scientific and medical value" in the USA, which used it's power and influence to convince other nations to adopt similar drug policies. Although the government played a strong role in this, it would be difficult to deny Timothy Leary's unintended influence on bringing this about. Early in his career as a "psychedelic guru" he advocated the use of psychedelics to everyone (of all ages) and gave up on many of the ethical and scientific guidelines we need to abide by. I do not blame him for being so overzealous when it came to understanding the power of these substances, but his approach led to the banning of research into psychedelics world wide. In a letter sent by MAPS a few days ago, addressed to several thousand psychiatrists from around the world, John Cloud of Time Magazine 4/30/07 writes "MAPS has learned from the mistakes of Timothy Leary and others."


Oh, and although I didn't take any offense by your choice of words... you may want to reconsider the way your express yourself sometimes. You come off sounding much less like a grounded person searching for the truth and more like another Timothy Leary. And we really don't need any more of them.

 

[GOD]

I did read and understand your anecdotal reply . I was pointing out that I HAVE WON THE DEBATE because YOU said several times

that :-

" I would like to see your points supported (or proven faulty) with scientific evidence, not anecdotal."

Me to , and the only way to get scientific evidence would mean doing tests with KIDS !!!!!. Smile please !!!!

 

[Roeligan]

I did read and understand your anecdotal reply . I was pointing out that I HAVE WON THE DEBATE because YOU said several times

that :-

" I would like to see your points supported (or proven faulty) with scientific evidence, not anecdotal."

Me to , and the only way to get scientific evidence would mean doing tests with KIDS !!!!!. Smile please !!!!

sorry to say this, but I think this reply is really childish..
Read my posts again and you will find:

I really hope you are joking, why not first experiment on mature people. If that proves to be absolutely without risks and with benefits that can be pointed out clearly, then we could start THINKING about testing on innocent children.

and

Not so fast! It would mean testing on full-grown people and if that would prove harmless and even beneficial THEN start testing on children

Not enough evidence of benefits and harmlessness has been given

I've said my last point in this thread, here's my smile

Take care and love,
Roel