Terence Mckenna's stoned ape theory in a nutshell

[MindAstronaut]

Yes, I agree. Food of the Gods is an excellent book. His timewave theory on the other hand, although very interesting, is a little hard to digest and grasp it in its totalarity.

This timewave theory Mckenna tells about, thats in the book the Invisible landscape right? cause i just start reading it and it's allready so Mindboggling as hell

 

[petfles]

Not to say i don't support this theory but to let some other voice be heard:

"Some scientists have suggested that the danger of heat-stroke in this environment are significant enough to have driven the tendency toward larger brains by itself: they argue that the initial advantage of bigger brains was not greater intelligence, as we have long believed, but having "redundant circuits" to protect us from heat stroke"
Bigger brains, in this view, created the opportunity for intelligence, but that was only a by-product of their initial advantage to our ancestors.

http://www.wsu.edu/gened/learn-modules/top_longfor/phychar/culture-humans-2two.html

I can understand mushrooms played a kickstart role in evolution.. But soooo many other things helped us to become us... Bigger brains need protein, lesser rainforest means large groups of animals to eat, losing our hair meant us being able to travel big distances etcetc. Coincedences or pieces of a puzzle? Just to say, evolution needs a LOT of luck not just mushrooms...

 

[HeartCore]

Read carefully:

Increases in brain size would therefore drive changes in early human diets, because of the need to increase the intake of protein

Diet changed was THE reason for it all to happen according to the stoned ape theory, not the other way around.


I never heard of that heat stroke argument, I find it hard to believe but ok at least there seem to be other possibilities

Its not just mushrooms, I never said that and Terence certainly never said it. It only argues a solution for the mystery of the emergence of human consciousness as we know it on the planet. Ofcourse there are many factors in play, its not like a mushroom came down from heaven and magically arranged it .. Seems that people find the idea that some psychoactive molecule can have played some role in our evolution prepousterous beforehand...

The big difference in thinking is the factor diet and the impact it can have on evolution, not the other way around. The link about heat compensation doenst really win me over. Its talking about 'waking erect is not the best way to walk'. Well, this is also the other way around I think. Sure for a wolf, tiger whatever predator its much more convenient to walk on four legs. However, two legs makes more sense for human beings.

So the question is, do you believe human being evolved by pure chance and some extremely uniiklely coincidences? Or, is there the remote possibility that some mushroom containging a molecule that closely resembles an important neurotransmitter in humans, can have had an impact on the evolution of consciousness.

So far I've not seen this intelligently debunked by anyone

This timewave theory Mckenna tells about, thats in the book the Invisible landscape right? cause i just start reading it and it's allready so Mindboggling as hell

Yes it is. Its the only book I cant really finish from cover to cover and understand everything he writes (or think I understand)

Bigger brains, in this view, created the opportunity for intelligence, but that was only a by-product of their initial advantage to our ancestors.

To me this sounds like a very wild guess but I'm not a evolution biologist

 

[petfles]

I remember bone marrow was supposed to help our evolution and found this: (Hope it is not just old news repeating, it just seems a logical explanation of brain growth)

The "discovery" of tools for scavenging for the brain and bone marrow and for killing prey was the major amplifying factor that "exploded" human evolution within a few hundred thousand years

Stone tools allowed early Homo to get at a food source that no other creature was able to obtain - bone marrow. Bone marrow contains long chain fatty acids that are vital for brain growth and development. This helped further fuel the increase in brain size, allowing our ancestors to make more complex tools.

Because meat is relatively easy to digest and rich in calories and nutrients, early Homo lost the need for the big intestines of apes and earlier hominids. This freed up energy for use by other organs. This surplus of energy seems to have been diverted to one organ in particular - the brain. But scavenging meat from under the noses of big cats is a risky business, so good scavengers needed to be smart. At this stage in our evolution, a big brain was associated with greater intellect. Big brains require lots of energy to operate: the human brain uses 20% of the body's total energy production. But the massive calorific hit provided by meat kick-started an increase in the brain size of early humans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/prehistoric_life/human/human_evolution/food_for_thought1.shtml
So this does link diet to evolution i believe...? Not saying mushrooms didn't have a part in this process but why is this theory not good enough?[/url]

 

[HeartCore]

Very interesting article Petfles and it seems completely valid. Whats also interesting I think, is to note that the stoned ape theory nicely fits into this article.

See Terence never claimed that the mushroom was all there was to human evolution and he saw his theory more of a complementation or additive to the entire theory of evolution.

It may even be that a psychoactive set the chain reaction in motion:

From the article:

Chimp test

Yet even this crude form of tool-making required our ancestors to make a cognitive leap. When researchers at the Yerkes Primate Center in Atlanta showed an intelligent chimp called Kanzi how to strike a suitable flake from a stone core in order to cut a cord tied around a box containing food, Kanzi soon grasped the general idea. But after many months of trying, Kanzi had not managed to produce anything as deliberately crafted as an Oldowan flake.

Kanzi couldn't seem to comprehend that useful flakes are only produced if a hammerstone strikes the core at the right point, at the right angle and with the right force. By contrast, even the earliest Oldowan tool-makers understood this principle.

So what was the initial spark that initiated toolmaking?

Maybe something like:

- long term activation of more parts of the brain due to ingestion of psychedelic plant that accidentally entered the diet (because of neccessary dietary changes).
- This stimulated the brain and induced toolmaking
- Bone marrow entered the diet due to new tools and allowed the brain to grow

The question is, I think, was there a spark or did we happen on toolmaking by accident?

I think its the first, or maybe I want to believe that, something initiated us, selfreflecting humans, from coming into being.

And thats what I've always liked about the stoned ape theory, it is completely in line with general science and doesnt need some flakey or mystery assumption and presents an in my opinion, valid argument for such an event..

I've always wondered what sparked those early humans to start using tools you know and to me a psychedelic seems an extremely viable candidate for that particular effect. Its very hard to proof hard, especially if you lack any background into these areas as I Maybe its possible to research those ancient fossils for traces that point to mushrooms in the diet, like they found proof for eating marrow. But I guess that wouldnt proof anything since all kinds of mushrooms have probably be eaten at sometime by our ancestors. And fungi fossils are limited since the softbodyness, there are just not very old fungi fossils availble.

Still. questions arise, like why do we have certain receptors in our brain for certain psychoactives. Where does the incredible reaction come from when we put psilocybin into our system. Could it be a trace of a prior long term relationship with a plant halluginogen sometime in human history? And if not, how would you explain the amazing similarity with psilocybin and serotonin? Coincidence? Some sort of strategy of the mushroom (which would raise many more questions about plant consciousness I think) or did we just forget the happy stoned ape we once where? (free Terence quote here

You tell me, science will opt for coincidence, I find the other options much more interesting and not farfetched at all


I can't really believe that we humans became this way by pure chance. And thats the only problem I always had with science, even as a kid I never believed this all just happened by pure coincidence 'just because it can happen'.

I guess thats why I like this story so much, its completely in sync with science but at the same time adds to the mystery of it all, without becoming some leap of faith in some corky argument. Not at all, its a complete rational, well thought out theory in my opinion

Thanks for that link Pet!

Something else that may be food for thought, is that early human civilization seemd to worship cattle. As the article Petfles shared tells us, many species died out when jungle turned to grassland and where replaced by animals that where grazing. This are the undulates Terence talks about in his book as well. Somehow, our ancestors found cattle important enough to worship. What was the reason for that? There are many possibilities and the possibility that this was because were these animals lived, dungloving psychoactive mushrooms grew, is as valid as any.

I'll dig up some more information from the book that I dont have very clear in my head about the evidence in later time which very convincingly shows that at some point, mushrooms where an important aspect of human religion or culture.

Thanks for inspiring me to read a book again, has been months ago

 

[petfles]

I've allways been in doubt about the evolution and was fascinated by Terrence. I listenend mostly to all his tapes while walking around. It works fine with me and for some strange reason i like his way of speaking

These books were quite interesting too, fiction not science:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Marie_Auel
It is about the Cro-Magnon and the Neanderthalers,
One species lives on collective memories and the other uses creativity.
One is male dominant and the other is not.
I was surprised to find out they use a lot of herbs and psychedelics in ceromonies in this 'popular' story.
A human girl is raised by Neanderthalers and is forced to live on her own. She gets sparks out of nothing. Like she 'knows' how things are supposed to be... And on her own she creates novelty, even other humans could not forsee.

So maybe there could be a combination between collective memories and the new information psychedelics and extreme situations put inside.
Then it's just waiting for the right kind of person to combine information into an invention...
This can explain why novelty is allways at multiple places at the same time. And it gives hope that our dreams and visions are never lost but just waiting to be found :wink

Maybe its possible to research those ancient fossils for traces that point to mushrooms in the diet

They do talk about traces of C4 Carbon in early humans. Found in grass etc. Maybe, and i am no expert at all, this could point to eating fungi too?

Something else that may be food for thought, is that early human civilization seemd to worship cattle

I do think that this is found everywhere. Animals are the link to god or the 'mother. They provide everything to survive and they kill
I think the main reason to suspect mushrooms to be important in evolution is because it is our heritage. Think about amanita muscaria..

 

[HeartCore]

Jean Marie Aeul...I have lived 20 minutes driving from the caves that inspired those books in South France I never really could get into the books myself but my dad loves them.

I do think that this is found everywhere. Animals are the link to god or the 'mother. They provide everything to survive and they kill Wink
I think the main reason to suspect mushrooms to be important in evolution is because it is our heritage. Think about amanita muscaria.

So tell me, when was the last time you saw a cow killing somebody? I mean, predators ok but cows. But you may be right. On the other hand, there is evidence pointing to mushroom use as far as 4000BC if I remember correctly but I'll post more on that later.

Some info:

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/ ... ory1.shtml

he oldest archeaological of mushroom use discovered so far is probably a
Tassili image from a cave which dates back 3,500 years before the birth of
Christ. The artist's intent is clear. Mushrooms with electrified auras are
depicted outlining a dancing shaman. The spiritual interpretation of the image
transcends time and is obvious. No wonder that word "bemushroomed" has evolved
to reflect the devout mushroom lover's state of mind.

In the winter of 1991, hikers in the Italian Alps came across the well
preserved remains of a man who died over 5,300 years ago, approximately 200
years later than the Tassili cave artist. Dubbed the "Iceman" by the news
media, he was well equipped with a knapsack, flint axe, a string of dried
Birch Polypores (Piptoporus betulinus) and another yet unidentified mushroom.

Well I dont know if you ever saw the Tassili painting but too me this cant mean anything but a psilocybin state or something very similar. i will lookup a picture. Point is, yes Amanita use is widespread, maybe due to the extreme recognizabilty of that mushroom whereas psilocybin mushrooms are very different from eachother in how they look.

Stoned ape is not like a fantasy novel where someone gives an idea of what may have happened. Instead, its a well thought out set of ideas that, in my opinion, really make sense.

Even if there is only the slighest chance that this theory can be true, wouldnt that be a big argument for more research?

I dont know Petfles, are those arguments really so far fetched and not interesting enought for psychonauts to dive in deeper to see if we can find some major flaws in it? I've yet have to see convincing explantions about the similarities of psilocybin and serotonin (and dmt for that matter), It seems you guys just sweep those issues away. That I dont understand, here it is, a very nice thinking quest for psychonauts, this is one for us. But instead you guys want to talk about a 10th planet and discuss some novel.

Fine with me then I guess

 

[Pazusu]

I dont know Petfles, are those arguments really so far fetched and not interesting enought for psychonauts to dive in deeper to see if we can find some major flaws in it? I've yet have to see convincing explantions about the similarities of psilocybin and serotonin (and dmt for that matter), It seems you guys just sweep those issues away.

But I allready know this, what's there left to discuss? I didn't sweep anything away. I only mentioned a story I once read. And even if this story would be true, that wouldn't mean your story to be not true. Don't feel so attacked, it was not my purpose.

Btw - I just read some new research on Psylocin. That it might be a good medicine for OCD (obsessive neurosis) patients. See this link. Not that it has anything to do with this topic, but I was glad to see there is still some research going on about entheogens.

 

[HeartCore]

Paz I dont feel attacked, not at all. Apologies if that didnt came across...

But I allready know this, what's there left to discuss?

IF psilocybin played a role, even a small one, in sparking human selfreflecting consciousness, there is a lot more to discuss I tnink.

Where does it come from? What does it mean for us as a species? I could spend the rest of the day writing up questions here

Why is it that the psilocybin molecule is so unique on the planet? Why are spores best kept in deep space for preservation (scientific fact that a lot of spores can be kept good for milions of years in conditions that are common in deep space). What does the similarity mean between psilocybin and serotonin? And DMT for that matter? Does it mean anything or is it pure chance. Does the mushroom have a consciousness and, since our consciousness evolved out of a symbiosis between monkey brains and this mushroom, what are we exactly?

Questions enough I would think, not questions that can be answered easily but in my opinion they can fuel some interesting conversation. And I didnt feel attacked by the 10th planet story, I just felt you put it there without thinking really. I mean, its not something you really know by heart, believe in and are able to defend right? So you could as easily just have copied/pasted Genesis from the bible. I'm also not attacking you personally but you of all people should know that

So yes, I think there is a lot to discuss about this, and thats why I really started the topic I think. This place seems the best place to do so

And I think its safe to assume at this point in the discussion, that the theory is not debunked meaning, yes there are other possibilities but in general, we seem to agree that 'it may be possible', at least, thats the impression I get

Btw - I just read some new research on Psylocin. That it might be a good medicine for OCD (obsessive neurosis) patients. See this link. Not that it has anything to do with this topic, but I was glad to see there is still some research going on about entheogens.

Yes indeed. Also on erowid there are a lot of new psilocibin docs from 2006. Very interesting

 

[HeartCore]

So I stumbled across this page about the history of early christianity and the supposed con job of the church fathers on this link:

http://www.jamesarthur.net/mm_01.html

Interestingly, I found some 'evidence' about the involvement of human civilization with mushrooms:

Figure 30. Huge mushroom shaped pillars

The pillars that are at every temple in Egypt are shaped like giant mushrooms. These are shaped like the Amanita some are shaped like Psilocybe. Others look like tree fungus and are decorated with pictures of an incredible variety of plants. As the ultimate Alchemists, the Al Khemitians revered thousands of plants in their artwork.

More hints:

No direct evidence, surely not. What I found interesting though, is the Egyptian pillars where some look like amanita's and some look like psilocybe's. The question is, how long where these mushrooms used by humans? How far back does it go? Answering that would comfortable either prove this theory or make it obsolete right away.

This dates back 3500 years BC:

As I'm sure everyone here is aware of. And even if you dismiss circumstantial evidence like mushroom shaped Egyptian pillars, I doubt ANYONE without a psychedelic experience, experience, could understand what was meant by this pic as where for us it makes perfect sense, what is depicted here.

So I wanted to drop this in the mix for the simple reason that this proves humans have a historical background on the use of psychoactive mushrooms. Even more so, it seems now, and you won't see this on prime time news, basically all great religions, seem to have evolved out of the use of psychoactives. Naturally, at least for me, this raises the question, when did we start to do that? Where we completely developed self reflecting monkeys before that first contact happened, or did it kickstart us on the way so to speak.

I dont think we will be able to prove that otherwise than asking the mushroom

 

[HeartCore]

I just keep talking here

Found two interesting passages in the Archaic Revival. Scientific findings that help argue for at least the possibility that hallucinogens would be kept in the diet, once found.

The first passage tells about Gome National park in Tanzania where chimpansees would walk for 20 minutes or longer, to find a certain species of Aspilla. They would keep the leaves in the mouth, hold it for a few moments, and then swallow it. Aspilla contains thiarubrine-A, which supposedly is good to kill bacteria in the gut. Four species of Aspilla grow in Africa, three of them are used by chimps. The same three species, are used by African natives to threat wounds and stomachaches.

Terence: These findings show clearly the way in which a beneficial plant once discovered by an animal or a person, can be indluded in the diet and thus and thus confer an adaptive advantage. This animal or person is no longer threatened by certain factors in the environment, such as diseases tat may have previously set constraints on the life span of individuals or perhaps upon the growth of the population as a whole.

This type of advantage is easily understood. Less easy to understand is the way in which plant hallucinogens might have provided similar yet different adaptive advantages. These compounds do not catalyze the immune system into higher states of activity, although this maybe a secondary effect. Rather, they catalyze consciousness, that peculiar selfreflecting ability that has reached its greatest expression in human beings. One can hardly doubt that consciousness, like the ability to resist disease, confers an immense adaptive advantage on any individual who possesses it.

The second passage tells about an experiment where a large group of monkeys where given access to a device which could administer DMT to them. Basically the monkeys liked it soo much they often prefered the DMT above food.

To my mind, this indicates that monkeys are not put off by the effect of a powerfull hallucinogen but are really into the effects. So when the initial use started, they may have just used them for pleasant effects, like many animals do.