Spoiler: It's a Bummer

[EewDefining]

This may sound like a bummer, but i think we all can agree conciousness is a good thing. I've been thinking alot lately about phsychadelics as cheating. We could be ment to find spirtiural peace and all that jazz, without the assisstance of phsychadelics. Discuss.

 

[Larry_Golade]

We could be ment

Meant by whom or what?

to find spirtiural peace and all that jazz, without the assisstance of phsychadelics

No one here will seriously argue that psychedelics are the only path to whatever revelation or spiritual peace one may be looking for. But no, the psychedelic experience is not cheating in itself. Here I will use a metaphor taken from Tom Verdier's novel Lucie dans le ciel (which hasn't been translated into English yet and probably never will): let's say you want to travel to Japan. You can fly there, go there by boat, you may even swim if you damn please. Of these three means of transportation, flying is the easiest. Does this mean that the people who travel to Japan by plane are cheating and have somewhat of a fake experience of this country?

It's the same with psychedelics compared to other means of exploring consciousness. I'll even say that to a certain extent they feature difficulties that for instance meditation (the stereotypical alternative to psychedelics, as if one had to choose) lacks. As Terence McKenna once said, no one ever sat down to meditate with shaking knees and in awe of what they might find in that state.

 

[mosaicmouse]

Psychedelics are only psychedelics because of the way we are built.
They amplify a circuit that plays an important part in experience itself.

let's say you want to travel to Japan. You can fly there, go there by boat, you may even swim if you damn please. Of these three means of transportation, flying is the easiest. Does this mean that the people who travel to Japan by plane are cheating and have somewhat of a fake experience of this country?

Let's say you climb a mountain, either by foot or by helicopter.

 

[Larry_Golade]

I don't really see the point you're trying to make, my metaphor was only here to suggest that psychedelics are tools among others. And at the end of the day they're not dirtier or faker than any other. I've grown weary of ignorant and self-righteous knobheads and their waffle about how it's so much better to gaze at the stars or meditate than take a psychedelic. None is better than the other, they're different activities with the same goal, and I'd expect any intelligent human being to acknowledge that nothing makes them mutually exclusive. Most people don't, that's a pity and mostly a matter of misinformation. But if we're to have the same sterile discussion – which I feel is driven by a crypto-Christian sense of guilt – even among users of psychedelics, then I'm afraid we're gonna be beating around the bush for a loooooooooooong time.

 

[KrispedKritter]

You're right there, Larry, and I myself found the citation quite beautiful: I ripped it off to my site in the book of faces directly.

Myself, I find psychedelics as another way compared to meditation or other "spiritual" practice. But, just because psychedelics can be used as a tool towards Enlightenment, doesn't mean that it actually is used for that reason. After having been to some of the local scenes here in Sweden, most of them rave-parties, I've yet to meet many people who, at least upon encounter, seem Enlightened beyond "hey man, shit is shiny and we're having a laugh, want another beer?" This isn't to say that they're not good peeps, I'm sure they are, and I know that many of them practice meditation and yoga on the side, but mostly psychedelics seem to be used during festivities and frolicking to music, and in the mean time between parties, taken while grokking on trance music or DJing, in order to party more, better, harder faster at the next meet.

Maybe it's just me being on top of them, or maybe I'm just being delusional. I'm sure it's not like this at other places, but I'm also sure that MOST of the users of psychedelics take them for a good time, a good trip, and not to break open the head to new experiences that ultimately lead to a more fulfilling lifestyle and Enlightenment. As such, I generally don't advocate the use of psychedelics as a lifestyle, but it definately has its place within the lifestyle of a person trying to live out his Enlightened-Self, together with, say, meditation and THC, of course.

 

[Larry_Golade]

I won't deny that I enjoy psychedelics on a recreational level, and even done this way they can be profound and meaningful: dancing while on psychedelics – among which I count THC – is probably one of the things that reconciled me the most with my own body and it gave me some confidence. I used to feel like my mind somehow inhabited the wrong human shell: this prison of fat, it simply wasn't me. Now I know that I don't have much of a choice and must live with it, but also that I can change it. And I've been engaged in that process ever since, resulting in the loss of about 15 kilos (33 pounds) in a few years. And I know that I owe this (the realization, not the process, obviously) to my recreational use of psychedelics.

? And I'm feeling good ... ? :lol:

 

[EewDefining]

I like the helicoptoper anaology, because it points out a prejudice we have( or at least i do) towards a more advanced society. The arguement could be made that we shouldnt take the helicopter because it uses fossil fuels and that would be bad for the enviorment. Another arguement could be made that we should climb because it is better to take the longer harder route. The first arguement is the only one with validity, because to take a longest and hardest (just caught the sexual reference) route, would be infinitently long and hard.... OOOOh YAaaaa. cause you could just run in circles.

Now, say we turned that helicopter into a kite fueled by heavy winds. Then we do not this delima of damaging the enviorment. It can be a hemp kite and string for any trolls out there.

So, do you take a kite to the top of a mountain or do you climb? I say the kite, but i would not judge someone for climbing.

 

[IJesusChrist]

ytou're completely right psychedelics is like cheating and now i completely am against them. I hope everyone on this site feels bad for their cheating !!

rretrngh

 

[EewDefining]

ytou're completely right psychedelics is like cheating and now i completely am against them. I hope everyone on this site feels bad for their cheating !!

rretrngh

Hey Now, I dont belive that!

 

[ophiuchus]

i dont think that psychedelics can be considered cheating in any fashion, it is like was said before, "no one ever sat down to meditate with shaking knees and in awe of what they might find in that state". my point being that, the places that one goes are so different, that an analogy to anything simply will not cut it. one can't tell a skeptic to sit down and meditate for several hours and have any kind of effect like that of giving a skeptic 5 grams of dried mushrooms, it simply will not happen. now, after the experience, one can discover that all experience is psychedelic experience; even so, the altered state still remains distinctly different from the unaltered state.

this is not to say that one is working towards different goals, meditation and psychedelics can go hand in hand with self-awareness and appreciation of experience. but psychedelics go much much further than that. at a sufficient dose of mushrooms, or especially dmt, the things one is experiencing appear to be external, and bring one to a level of astonishment. like :shock: . the feeling of "what is this? i've never seen this before, this can't be mine"

if there ever was one, the enemy of psychedelics would be taking too little. there is much more to be had beyond amplification of the senses, wavy things, colors, and patterns.

 

[sidefx]

life is short and shorter for others,
and the experiences humans can achieve with entheogens are unique like traversing a different land planet even.
also they can quickly dig to the surface deep thoughts ideas to be pondered.

"if your not happy were you are pack a backpack, travel on a level all over the map"
find a passion, direct.

 

[ararat]

try to trip everyday, try to meditate every day, notice the difference.

the two are not really comparable. the one is a skyrocket and the other is a bicycle. cut out the environmental question, but consider the speed, you can travel the earth with a flying thing, it'll not take very long and you'll arrive somewhere, but with the bicycle you meet lots of different people and you see all those landscapes in between as I said in the other thread I opened, that 10-day meditation course was much like an LSD-trip diluted onto 10 days, with all its ups and downs, its horrors and its bliss, with the difference that I could sleep quite well and I once actually sat down with somewhat shaking knees anxious about what I am going to find.. not comparable to the shaking you get before you ingest a psychedelic, but still...

I don't like the mountain analogy too much, because it implies that you can go up there by force and arrive at one point, which is a process of time, but enlightenment or whatever we are seeking is something apart from time. also it makes it seem that there is a definite end to all of it, but life is more like music, dance, or play: it doesn't go anywhere.

I've always thought of psychedelics as having inspirational value, you see what is possible, what is real and what is not, but after maximum a week you'll fall back into old modes of existence and perspective. at least it was like that for me.. this is where meditation comes in for me, it is a very good reminder. there's no harm in learning how to be aware without the aid of externally administered chemicals.

 

[IJesusChrist]

the internet is like cheating for communication.

just because something is better doesn't mean it detracts from an older way of doing something.

nostalgia was better in the old days.

 

[mosaicmouse]

I guess it would only be a cheat if there would be an absolute rule-book for living.
In a game without rules a cheat is just an allowed shortcut.

 

[EewDefining]

I dont think life is a game. Games are too light, they lack the substance that come with life.

If life was a game then, i would consider somethings cheating. Ex. killing someone in the wilderness for food instead of trying to find food together.

 

[ararat]

game implies that you can win, I prefer to say that life is play. (even though I tend to forget that quite often )

children can be very serious when they play (some gifted grown-ups too). or take music, it doesn't go anywhere, yet it can be serious and playful at the same time. or dance, same thing. dance doesn't go anywhere for sure :lol: yet it can be [s:i1oh8sfk]super serious[/s:i1oh8sfk] substantial.

 

[mosaicmouse]

I think the comparisson of life with a game is easily made because (most/all?) games are modeled after life. The play BananaPancake mentioned is also a "training" for life, especially in mammals.

If life was a game then, i would consider somethings cheating. Ex. killing someone in the wilderness for food instead of trying to find food together.

So it would be a matter of opinion or ethics. Going back to the original post: "are psychedelics a cheat?" = "is it ethically just to take psychedelics?"

 

[ophiuchus]

life is what one makes of it. games are what one makes of it. life and games aren't inherently "light", or any-thing for that matter. they "are" what we project onto them. for example some people take games very seriously. some people take life very lightly.

it is impossible to "cheat" in life, because there are no inherent "rules" written. the only semblance of any rules are physics, which cannot be cheated in any fashion, especially scientific, because nobody of real authority exists, who would imply that technology is cheating. :lol:

communication cannot be considered cheating in any fashion. each form has it's various drawbacks as well as advantages. cheating implies a "right way", and a "wrong way". they are different, that is all.

i personally like to view life as a game, because for me, it has the ability to make some instances extraordinarily fun, but i remember all the time that it is not truely a game, because never will there be a "game over". even the play has the ability to mislead, although it can make for a very poetic view. but ultimately, plays begin, and plays end. do you remember a distinct beginning, or can you be certain of a true end?

 

[BrainEater]

i heard that a sufficiently advanced technology could not be distinguished from magic... and this can probably mean many things and on many levels...a interesting perspective that i saw on youtube is also that technology could supposedly be seen as an extension of the nervous system instead of seeing the outside world as separate, however depending on your paradigm or so it could well mean that you possibly would create a more artificial self-image??? so i would suggest, you should better know what you do by yourself or who else is supposed to know that?? i guess just do what feels right to you... listen to your heart... something like that.. lol...

moreover interestingly enough, the human brain is supposed to be the most complex object in the known universe or so... a lot of people are seeming to do regression instead of evolution though... maybe they think they would prefer to live in the stone age lol... i think mental prisons are a good example for that. fear of illusion or the illusion of fear...
do you think violence is a solution?? should it be seen as one??
i think not... to me it seems that nowadays various forms of violence are mistaken for real authority. i just really can't see
violence as real authority. the thing is probably that violence can be present on more levels than just the material world. in my view real authority would be less primitive or so.. 8)


peace

 

[sidefx]

i believe anything that can help dissolve the notion of duality and sculpt thoughts of oneness is for the betterment of man-kind
in a world run by stress demanding you to take the physical.
gluttony.
control.
Violence is a stone-age-emotion.
"listen to your heart"
we are desperate for Peace.