Something is off. -- Now its a convergence.

[ararat]

what I found the last few days was that delving into "spiritual realms" and cruising around in there feels more like getting lost in my own mind, rather than staying/being with the absolute immanent, here and now, which for me also contains much of the so-called physical, which comes from the same source as everything else, and as such posseses equal worth or worthlessness as anything else.
where do I want to go? I'm already here anyway.

 

[Schwanke668]

The way I look at it is everything, every 'plane' is a set of wavelengths that interact with each other and other wavelengths or other planes. As such there is a lot of cross over between planes and wavelengths.

I think that our physical bodies reside mostly in the physical plane but that our minds and our spirits can operate inside other plane. If we define ourselves as a 'person' then our entire 'person' can operate in all of the planes to greater or lesser degrees given enough experience and either learning or training. Sometimes takes training, practice, or experience to learn to enter into other planes that we dont normally operate in.

I think the physical plane is the most basic of planes and the easiest to percieve but the most limited.

Above that I have only cognitively discerned the difference between a spiritual plane where there are predominently spiritual beings and a psychedelic plane which may be collections of varieties of planes interacting in different ways.

In another way you can look at a 'plane' as merely a 'perspective'. A grouping of similar 'materials' that interact with a set of 'rules'. The materials are basically all of one kind of 'thing'. Physical plane is physical space, spiritual plane is spiritual things such as angels, demons, people's spiritual personages. Etc. Then you have other planes such as maybe an 'emotional plane' where interaction is done through emotions. Etc..

I think the hard part is the fact that because planes cross over so easily and you can 'translate' between 'wavelengths' so easily that people often when they interact with other planes slip in and out of different planer realities without realizing it and think they are in one plane when they are not. Which is also why people often try and do one thing in one plane and it doesnt do what they think it should because they were actually in a different plane and didnt know it.

Its also possible that people can push you around and move you from one plane to another. If you have ever been in a situation where you 'felt' someone else or 'something' else and couldnt put it but it felt like a presence and you felt something changed then that was probably an instance of something of a different plane either interacting with you or trying to push/move you possible in a plane you werent even aware of you were operating in.

I have been experiencing various planer realtions since I was a very small child and never understood them in any concrete way until about 5 years after i got saved about 6 years ago. It was when I started to really research inside the planer realities how they interacted that I began to develop a personal internal system on how to interact with them.

Personally I have never trusted outside sources of planer realities because I really do beleive that too many people try to hard to define the systems and then their system is entirely different then what i would use and so if I use their system I would just be confusing myself. I may not be going as 'fast' in my growth as I would be if I was using someone elses but I feel much more confident in what I have learned.

 

[Shamanomenon]

can you explain why "no one is immune from making a decision"?

i believe that making a decision of "what side to stand on" is foolish. that would be to say that there are actual, real tangible sides. but there are not. find me a physical side to stand on and i might be inclined to choose.

another way to look at it: there is no evil, nor good, apart from how we define it. and not everyone agrees.

things are more complex(simple) than that.

Good and evil can be defined universally and easily. That's what I did. Peace and freedom (Good) versus force and violence (Evil). I thought it was a very simple concept to understand. If you meet a random man on the street, do you have any valid reason to think that he is Evil? Maybe he is of a different color, or you don't like his hair, or maybe he is wearing a religious symbol of a faith to which you do not belong. Are these valid reasons to think he is Evil? No. The man is free to believe whatever he wants and to do whatever he wants. In fact, the only time that he becomes Evil is if he uses force or violence against you or someone else. Everything else that we use to define good and evil is nothing more than millennia of indoctrination and division.

One way or another, we will be united under peace and freedom or force and violence. One cannot dwell in a house with the other.

 

[ophiuchus]

while i agree that the fixed concepts of good and evil are very simple, i want to note, as you have done already for me, just how complicated they can become.

or maybe he is wearing a religious symbol of a faith to which you do not belong. Are these valid reasons to think he is Evil? No. The man is free to believe whatever he wants and to do whatever he wants. In fact, the only time that he becomes Evil is if he uses force or violence against you or someone else.

so, lets say this man does BOTH, as is often the case... is he then good, or evil? see my point? the world of fixed states becomes an arguement over semantics in the ever moving and changing of the real world... a distraction. a creation of the mind.

i can choose to label the man as evil, because i may have prejudices that i developed at an earlier time (age?) that made me think that "no matter what someones intent is, if they use violence to get their point across they are evil".
or
i can choose to label the man as good, because "even if the man is using violence, i still think that his goal is a very important goal to work towards, and more people will have died in pointless wars than by getting his point across"

taking the time to define somebody or something as one thing in a duality (good or evil) is pointless, and also is time-not-used on the causes that YOU believe in... somebody(give or take half) will always disagree


me:

that would be to say that there are actual, real tangible sides. but there are not. find me a physical side to stand on and i might be inclined to choose.

@ schwanke: "Not to hack anyone in particular" don't worry about offending me if you were more or less directing at me, i give you permission from here on out to address me personally even should you wish to call me out in a disagreement. actually i'd prefer it, so as to not create confusion. ill do my best to explain myself.

but if your holding on to the 'physical is all there is' mentality then either your wasting your time on psychedelic experiences or your going to have one thats going to blow your mind because you will finally see how wrong you were all along and at that point 'everything will change.'

&
@my quote: this was rhetorical, i know better than to try and choose a side, because i spent a good number of my younger years trying to find a side that satiated me. i still have not found one, but have also learned that i never will, and to stop tryingwith such effort to search for one. this was to hopefully get shamanomenon to look outside of this formal dual system, not a challenge to find me a side. i definitely understand a bit about subtle energies/higher(and lower) planes.

psychedelic experiences will always blow my mind, nonetheless because there is no "final state"

 

[itsscience]

I agree with Allusion on this one. Good and Evil are human constructs not universal truths, there is no good and evil there just is. Even if there was, describing them as peace and freedom v violence and force is far too simplistic. One can commit what mankind describes as evil by using no force or violence (eg criminal neglect - the failure to act to help when it is so clear that help is needed). If I find an innocent man being beaten by a group of thugs and I help him by fighting the thugs am I being good or evil, I'm using force and violence but I'm doing it to help an innocent.

We find force and violence all throughout nature but no one would argue nature is evil, it just is. Similarly with god, I don't believe he/she/it is good or evil, it just is. I think this is the way of the Tao.

 

[Schwanke668]

Well I often see someone writing something in particular then think of how my response can apply to a larger audience. I dont specifically remember what we're talking about and I'm not really worried about it.

As for the whole is good and evil real thing. I stay away from those conversations because its too easy for people to take stances that are generic and unfounded and use them to prove or disprove any number of arguments. The conversations inevitibly end up in a conversation hole where people go round and round in circles or get upset or both. Just not worth the conversation when 'good vs evil' is a topic that everyone has an opinion on and no one ever agrees on fully.

Some day we'll find out. Sadly most of society will have been convinced all along they were right and find out they werent.

 

[itsscience]

Aw schwanke, the existence of good and evil (mallum in deo) has been the topic of conversation of high end philosphers for centuries, don't tell me you're copping out of it. Disappointing.

 

[ophiuchus]

word 8)

 

[Schwanke668]

Aw schwanke, the existence of good and evil (mallum in deo) has been the topic of conversation of high end philosphers for centuries, don't tell me you're copping out of it. Disappointing.

Actually yes I am. I realized in prayer last night that those of us who are searching for 'The Way' walked away from the path to finding the way two or three posts ago and we are not encouraging those that are not searching for the way to search for the way by continuing it.

There comes a point in the Tao where you need to 'let go' and allow the rest of reality to solve the problem because there is nothing else you can do. This is known as when to 'bend like the reed' and 'when to break'. I am choosing to break.

I dont see any 'head changing' going on here. I dont see anyone in this conversation that isnt already set in their beliefs. So there is no spiritual profit for anyone to continue the conversation.

I will freely admit. I am not going to change my beliefs. If others were to admit that they would seriosly consider my beliefs as being more likely then theirs then there might be some spiritual profit for me continuing to speak on behalf of my beliefs so as those that might be interested in 'converting' to them might be able to.

But if no one is seriously considering the possibility that my beliefs are right and theirs are wrong then there is no benefit in my opinion for continuing it 'for the sake of conversation' in this case.

If anyone is willing to say "Yes schwanke, there is a possibility that what you say is correct and I am willing to believe you." then i would be willing to continue. But if all we are doing is discussing for the sake of discussing things that have been discussed for centuries, I see no point.

Just my opinion as allways. Dont feel its right to waste anyones time making no headway in a fruitless conversation.