self-love?

[sopor]

the shit is getting deeper and deeper...

in the past i have been messing with the idea of killing the ego. not only killing, but also seriously molesting it. things didn't get the way i expected. i ended up being hated and despised by myself. while "loving" (having high opinion of) everybody else. it can be quite difficult functioning with such framework. especially in social situations. most common reaction in interacting with others is retreat. "justified" by feelings of not being worthy (of their time, love, attention). i have traced this model of behavior back through most of my life, since early adolescence. result of a childhood trauma. it used to be bearable, but now things are getting harder. instead of shutting the ego, i ended up with this mutilated thing inside my head, not allowing me to function the way i think i should. it is time for me to get my life together, to accept who i am and above all: i must learn how to love myself.

i started exercising. think it helps a bit. i also meditate (not as often as i should though). i am aware of my thoughts and where they come from. but i obviously got stuck in this passivity zone. cannot force myself to change the way i think. it could have something to do with my cannabis abuse during last years. i don't smoke so much any more. i would stop completely, but it really helps me function in non pleasant situations. it kinda distracts me from feeling like shit. and it's a strong habit.

i am just not good in dealing with this love yourself thing. anyone familiar with this kind of situations? any advices would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Forkbender]

tough spot you are in.

I think it will be good to stop trying to change the ego for a while, not even force it to love yourself, just look at it and see it for what it is. You probably are a good person despite your ego, so don't worry too much about it. If you continue to put pressure on the ego, it will just grow out of resistance.

 

[viljo]

feel the same way!

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Trauma's are indeed what shape the 'ego' that needs to be destroyed eventually, but one should not attempt to kill the ego artificially, or one might mistake the genuine self for the ego, bringing harm to oneself. Do not try to experience ego-death while in the ordinary state of mind, and don't do psychedelics without proper guidance.

Regarding childhood traumas, very rarely are they the root cause of one's problems. Simply focusing on these events (consciously reliving and integrating them) might help, but not completely. In most cases childhood traumas were preceded by a significant birth trauma, or traumas from other lifetimes. It's a question I've been asking a lot of people lately: what was your birth like?

 

[Forkbender]

I'm sorry CM, but it seems to me that you mindlessly accept a dogma from the psychedelic church of birth trauma. I know you have been reading a lot of Stan Grof lately and that he talks about it a lot, but is there any objective proof for these matters? Couldn't they have been observed by a prejudiced observer or projected by a therapist who wanted to develop a theory? Can you explain why birth is a traumatic experience? Can you explain how it influences our lives? This has been bothering me for a while...

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Of course I can answer those questions. Regarding proof, hm, I'm not interested in proving anything. Better if we wait for sopor's answer and continue the discussion from there.

you mindlessly accept a dogma from the psychedelic church of birth trauma.

Rephrase please, or reconsider.

 

[Forkbender]

I'm not asking you to proof anything, I'm asking if such proof exists. All I ask of you is to explain to me why you think the birth trauma is so significant and if there is no other way to see it.

The sentence you quoted is preceded by 'It seems to me' when I wrote it, it's just that I don't see you putting a lot of thought in it, which you undoubtedly do, and that I would like to hear your motivation for saying it in a lot of discussions on this forum lately. I hope that reality isn't 'what it seems to me', so I respectfully ask for your point of view, perhaps in a separate thread.

 

[restin]

sopor, I see you realized that the "love" you feel towards others is not love. Love is always a two-way street, one end cannot exist without the other, not only that, but the love to yourself and the love to the others influence each other more than we think. I think meditation is a good start but I don't think that it works well with forcing yourself. You must find a balance between "working on yourself" and "going with the flow" - if you are too tense, nothing will work, if you are too relaxed you will lose initiative.

Changing yourself is hard. I have been trying for a long time as well and I think the best you can do is going on in small steps. You will not see the change in real-time but after a while you will see your progress. As I say, you should not force yourself to think differently. Because you can't and when you see that you can't you will be even more depressed. I think that by analyzing yourself you are on a good parth.

Your final goal should be to clean your "street" of communication and love. Your goal must be to treat your nearest with the same respect as yourself. It may be cliché if I quote the bible here but I really like this quote: "love your nearest ones as you love yourself." This basically sums up what I try to say.

Regarding proof, hm, I'm not interested in proving anything.

That's not the point...

 

[sopor]

well, regarding my birth: it was quite normal, hospital and all, no major complications, had jaundice (maybe i just didn't want to leave the womb so soon). my birth could be related with some stress from my parents although they rather don't talk about it (unplanned baby, reason for marriage). i was also born with situs inversus (internal organs being in mirror position), but it was discovered like 23 years later.

i don't pay much attention on my birth, although it could tell a lot about my previous life(s) if one believes in reincarnation and choosing the conditions of future incarnations to live in. when i think about it, if i chose this life, it had to be for a reason. kind of a test i have to pass to evolve. this and Fork's advice makes me think. maybe i should just accept the given situation and go with the flow. respect and trust in the Will. and CM, you re right, trying to kill the ego can result in just restructuring it and even giving it more power if one doesn't know exactly what he is doing. messing with occult rituals and stuff if not properly educated can push you into the abyss. but then again, could this weird place be chapel perilous as raw calls it? a kind of a tomb i have to rise from? (maybe i should put my interest in occult aside at least for a while, face the world as it is, even boring as it seems...)

@restin: exactly. i realized that i don't know how to love. i just don't feel it. what i feel towards others is more kind of duty (or sth) which is clearly result of my feelings of being inferior.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

I'm not asking you to proof anything, I'm asking if such proof exists.

Well, the proof is in the pudding. Psychologists administering high doses of psychedelics noticed their patients kept regressing into experiences that were clearly related to their birth experience. Very often these people had no knowledge of their birth, but would remember all kinds of things during their psychedelic sessions. Subsequent discussions with the parents of these patients, or consulting the medical records, would confirm what had been experienced. In the books I read Grof mentions a couple of examples, but he actually collected hundreds of such examples, which can be found throughout his books. So that's sort of proof. Unfortunately psychedelic research was banned around the same time that the psychological significance of the birth trauma was rediscovered.

As far as birth being traumatic, yes, even the best deliveries are extremely frightening and uncomfortable to the child. Remember that the child has been floating in a more or less peaceful environment for several months, just chilling out and being content. Suddenly THE WORLD starts squeezing it, pushing it, strangling it, not knowing if it will ever end, and how it will end. I've already written/cited much more about this. Even Otto Rank and Freud came to the conclusion that generally nothing is more traumatic in the life of an individual than birth itself. But because the birth trauma can not be talked about, and can thus not be treated by verbal therapy, it was never accepted by mainstream psychology.

Couldn't they have been observed by a prejudiced observer or projected by a therapist who wanted to develop a theory?

No one developed a theory prior to the patients spontaneously having these experiences, and being healed in the process. It became self-evident, and transpersonal psychologists like Grof simply wrote down what they had observed. They actually had to rid themselves from many theoretical frameworks to acknowledge this (as well as many of the other transpersonal phenomena on the archetypal or entheogenic levels).

Can you explain how it influences our lives?

Yes. But I would have to write a lot to adequately explain it, and I've already written quite a bit in other topics which I believe did answer this question. Moreover it's a commonly accepted (and I think proven) idea that traumas in general change the way you perceive and interact with the world. Traumas shape the ego, or the false ego. By nature no being is really fearful, but because of a significant trauma a person may end up claustrophobic, agoraphobic etc. which will significantly influence where that person goes, whom he interacts with etc. So traumas affect who we 'are'. The question then remains: can birth be traumatic? And that has already been answered.

All I ask of you is to explain to me why you think the birth trauma is so significant and if there is no other way to see it.

It's especially significant because it's probably one of the scariest experiences we're ever going to experience (in fact many babies don't survive the ordeal, or come out blue due to asphyxiation, or even need CPR), and because it happens right at the start of our lives, and on a pre-verbal level.

It's extremely interesting stuff, and there's no need to blindly accept it. Simply ask people the question what their (or another person's) birth was like, and you'll be astounded!

I forgot who, but recently someone on this forum wrote about a family member who had committed suicide. The story initially sounded like just another acid casualty, but it turned out his birth had been extremely difficult, which explains why he was depressed for years and why unsupervised use of psychedelics didn't cure him, but caused him to take his own life. So not only is this information interesting, it could also save lives. And to go a little off-topic: it could help save the planet.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

well, regarding my birth: it was quite normal, hospital and all, no major complications

Good to hear that. It cannot be considered an ideal birth however (which I think would be a water delivery, or one in which the mother squats or stands up), and I hope I didn't give the impression that only deliveries with medical irregularities can be traumatic. It's always a scary experience. Much depends on how we are received by our parents when we come out.

What you describe, namely feelings of inferiority, may be linked to BPM II, or the second perinatal matrix, which marks the first stage of the delivery. The cervix is still closed, but the crushing contractions have started, giving rise to a terrifying no-exit situation. This stage is generally not subject to the birth complications characteristic of BPM III and IV. It's also something we've all gone through, except those born by non-labor cesarean.

i don't pay much attention on my birth, although it could tell a lot about my previous life(s) if one believes in reincarnation

I don't necessarily believe in it, but I also don't rule it out. It turns out that reliving memories from previous lives (whether real or psychedelically 'imagined') can be extremely healing. In psychedelic therapy, no theoretical restrictions were put on the experiences of the patients. That's why I said I'm not interested in proving any theory or method. Much more important is whether people were healed.

 

[Forkbender]

No one developed a theory prior to the patients spontaneously having these experiences, and being healed in the process.

Well, you already mentioned Freud and Rank, who were talking about this birth trauma before psychedelic therapy existed. Stan Grof himself was schooled in a Freudian school prior to giving therapy and this may color his view on what people will experience. Moreover, just because the ideas of Freud are very well known throughout the world will give people the idea that they have an unconscious aspect within themselves that is traumatized.

I doubt to what extent a baby will actually feel the birth as traumatic, because there is no such thing as individuality before birth and even in the first few months/years of a person's life (oceanic consciousness), so how does this work? Maybe injecting/projecting current egoic structures into an imagined re-experiencing of the birth is the cause of the experience of pain/trauma instead of the actual birth being traumatic. Maybe a psychedelic session is a rebirth, often accompanied by an experience that is a combination of current egoic experience with old memories.

The idea that birth trauma is accountable for current pain and suffering takes the attention away from the present and into the past, like there is some sort of karmic field that needs to be dealt with before we can reach enlightenment. But then we can just go on and on and on and on and there will never be an end to it.

 

[Proteus]

Loving and liking can be different. I like a lot of people, have a high opinion of them, but I might not love them. I can also love people I dislike. They might piss me off but I feel love for them. I'm sure you do not have to like yourself to love yourself.

I think sympathy is crucial because it turns self-loathing into sadness. No one wants to be in pain so being sympathetic, being sorry for yourself – letting feelings of sadness you have come up is a good thing.

If those feelings are coming up for a while, is there a desire to heal, to reach out for help? If I sense that, I know it as love. There are many types of love but that one – it is very dynamic. It might seem weak & pathetic but if I listen to it carefully it is very beautiful and can tell me what I need to do.

Take what is broken & lost, feel the sadness of it, and listen carefully to the sound behind that sadness so it can move you. It can move mountains.

 

[restin]

@restin: exactly. i realized that i don't know how to love. i just don't feel it. what i feel towards others is more kind of duty (or sth) which is clearly result of my feelings of being inferior.

yes, we can differ between three types of love: compassion (general love towards others), erotic love and self-love and all of them are equally important. There is no easy solution for your situation and in the end you must cure yourself, there is no other who can do that for you...I hope you will get well. I don't think that you should just let go everything, as I said in my previous post.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Stan Grof himself was schooled in a Freudian school prior to giving therapy and this may color his view on what people will experience.

I just explained how Stan Grof arrived at these conclusions, and he describes this himself at the start of every lecture he has given and every book he has written, which I have already linked to.

 

[Brugmansia]

Stop using cannabis regulary if you feel it's sedating your Good Spirits.

I'd say self-love is an almost indispensable foundation if you're riding the higher spaceships, it's unconditional and independant. It's the steering wheel on both sides, unbiased for as long as it swims disconnected from mind contraction or any analyzing observation.

It may or may not imply that you'll feel cellibate throughout your life-time, not because you won't be with someone else (you'll be in able to experience true compliant love) but because you also might get aware how each human being has an own ego which has the last words in any of it's individual decisions. "Love makes blind" as it has been said. Yes, only if you temporarly sell out your ego without even knowing how this construction works internally. Hence why celebrities in Hollywood go sky high (a sort of ignorant ego dissolution) in no time and make a downfall just as quick (a sudden ignorant ego revival which causes an exorbitant boost). They do not truly love themselve and depend on the visual orientated world, a constant need for external stimuli, as well as narrow-minding drugs to keep disconnection with their deepest inner Self. It is typically a good and bright example why mankind should regulate it's love for it's Self, since it's inherently and unconditionally tied with our appreciation towards life. Ego is a nice and pleasant addition for a secondary cover around the Self, but should not make up the core.

A psychonaut may get aware of our collective consciousness just as much he gets aware of our individual ego. Captivity = freedom, and freedom = captivity, but what keeps the existence of both sides a conscious living dream = the Self. Learn to love your Self, whatever side you choose, you'll always determine with honesty and a comprehensible perception of what is going on, whether it's through lannguage or intuitive nerves is irrelevant.

Maybe we should have a topic about how to love the Self.

 

[Psyolopher]

I feel the same way, sopor!
But I am slowly learning to love myself.

Just remember, you cannot live without an ego.

 

[Forkbender]

I just explained how Stan Grof arrived at these conclusions, and he describes this himself at the start of every lecture he has given and every book he has written, which I have already linked to.

Yes, you said he wrote down what people experienced. But what happened before the experience? Did he tell people anything about what they might expect? Did he prepare them in any way? And what people underwent this therapy? The same people that have had years of unsuccesfull Freudian analysis?

In my view Grof has done a lot of great work and has helped a lot of people solve some of their traumas, but I also think that the way he interprets the process of psychedelic healing is rooted in his education in the western psychological tradition. The way he interprets and explains phenomena aren't necessarily right and I think that we need to be careful considering everything he says as fact.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

And what people underwent this therapy? The same people that have had years of unsuccesfull Freudian analysis?

Artists, authors and other intellectuals, as welll as nurses, psychologists and psychiatrists in training.

 

[IJesusChrist]

First, you must realize your emotions are abnormally strong - excercise is good, will use up some of this extra energy.

I understand where you are, and the though processes accompanying your position. What I would say is, and I don't want to scare you, but you're going to need time, and a lot of it. You have to focus on a way you want to be, a way of not caring.

What I have learned is that hating one's self is quite the opposite of ego death. Ego death in my terms is actually the destruction of a specific type of consciousness. My goal of ego-death: never care. I don't exist. I am a voice to other people, where I can hear their responses, their lives, I watch, listen, touch, smell and taste, but I do not see myself. This is ego death in my terms.

How I reach this? I don't. It's a pathway. You go along this path and you will become ever closer, but you're not going to reach this. Thats why I tell you it takes time to become uncaring of the self, while able to express love, and involvement to others.

Sorry if this makes no sense. You will be fine, this will heal, UNLESS. You dwell on the fact that exists. Paradoxes will resume, like you said, the deeper you go... the more apt to confront paradoxes, the more apt to get stuck. These will only impede your tread.

Ahhh. This post was completely unable to get to m y point - sorry.