Religious?

[Teonanacapilli]

in (probably ancient) china the universe is seen as something that grows, as nature, that which happens of itself, but is living - in contrast to the western view. in india it's viewed as a drama of the great self if I'm not mistaken.
both views resonate way better with me than the others. I like to think of reality as a rorschach-test see it as you wish

I really dig that idea that the universe is in growth, like a plant

I have to go and read your input Allusion and IJC and will comment on that in a bit! But I just want to add that we should differentiate between like biological, consciousness or societal evolution. Though they equate to the same thing... or is that what we are talking about, evolution as a whole? That could get tricky since biological and societal evolution behave differently in ways.

 

[ophiuchus]

Evolution will always be evolution; natural, undefined, and progressive towards a blank canvas.

i agree, but not not 'progressive toward' a blank canvas, it IS a blank canvas. which means you (society) can paint whatever you really want/need.

"There is a very, VERY deep and fundamental understanding of evolution I would argue NOBODY knows about yet, but we can see it; much like the confusion of dark energy."

could you expound upon that statement? because i believe that i very well might understand evolution at a pretty fundamental level, and would love to try to tackle the job of explaining it. and what do you mean its like the 'confusion' of dark energy? i dont get that reference...

However, there is no end result, biology is simply cause and effect, with no eventual 'perfect' as far as what we're talking about. There is no 'better' as far as biology is talking about - it is random tossing of the dice 10^100 times.

um, like i said already... "just because there is no "best"(in the objective sense) doesn't mean there's no "better" (in the subjective sense)"

The "game" (for analogy) gets more and more complex as we move from methan, to something like a fatty acid, to something like serotonin, to insulin, to a virus... and eventually to us or animals. Immensely complex, so much so we can no longer study the dice to see their effect on the game. The game and the dice seem completely seperated, but we know they are in-fact, one in the same.

"The game and the dice seem completely seperated, but we know they are in-fact, one in the same."

no, we know they are in-theory, one and the same. and that statement isn't true either, because we DONT know. we theorize these apparent connections, that never account for emotion or thought, and that is sciences why science does not draw facts, it draws theories. that is sciences inherent flaw.

"The reason I say there is no path, is because the game just goes."

that's not a reason for 'why there is no path.' you just said: the reason why you're wrong, is because im right. and then right after that, you said "There is only 1 goal in the game" that allows for a path! that path is, whatever path you make and/or take to get to that goal!

so, yes there is no ONE path. but there's definitely a path. and another. or another. there are infinite paths. this doesn't mean they are out of control. or that a path does not exist. that being said, i dont even think that my goal is 'trying to reproduce'. maybemore like reproduce my ideas, so my path may be a different path than yours, but they still converge on some level, because the ultimate goal is to create something functional/usable that wasn't there to begin with.


that's a textbooks perspective. the world is not words. the world has emotion, and feelings, and a dynamic perspective. something that a biology book never talks about.

 

[ophiuchus]

how much space is there, between an atom, and another atom? a vast empty distance in comparison to the actual size of the atom...
how much space is there between one galaxy, and another galaxy? a vast empty distance, in comparison to the actual size of the galaxy...

the distance between two things is not an indication of disorder. just because the universe is expanding, does not mean that the forces that act upon it are not expanding as well. just because there is space in between, does not mean that it is "empty" space.

the universe is a speck.

even though evolution really seems as a big trial and error thing, working solely through more or less random mutations, I do dislike that view. it makes it sound like a big machine that randomly mixes atoms and brings out

complex structures.

it is as much blind trial and error as it is our choice. it's our choice, always with an added element of surprise. you could look at it as a test, to see if that choice is versatile enough.

I really dig that idea that the universe is in growth, like a plant

me too

But I just want to add that we should differentiate between like biological, consciousness or societal evolution.

we could differentiate, as they are behaving differently (currently), but nonetheless, the operator (in the sense of the fractal "operator") is still the same. the same thing is going on. these are just examples of the different scales evolution takes place on. it's like a wave. the more you zoom in, the more waves you see, and the more you zoom out, the more you see that those little waves are what the big waves are made of, and that those waves make up more waves and on and on.

That could get tricky since biological and societal evolution behave differently in ways

in what ways do you mean specifically?

 

[IJesusChrist]

"There is a very, VERY deep and fundamental understanding of evolution I would argue NOBODY knows about yet, but we can see it; much like the confusion of dark energy."

What I meant by this is - we are fully aware of dark energies effects, and what the "Large picture" is of dark energy - the expansion of the universe...

But we know not what drives it; We know that the large picture of evolution is reproduction, survival of the fittest, and environmental issues, but we know not why it is there.

In chemistry, we learn that the universe strives towards greater entropy. All equations, or all events in the universe must increase the universes total entropy. If an event does not increase entropy, it will not happen.

However, the system of biology, of evolution continually decreases entropy to an amazing extent. This is possible, of course, by increasing the entropy of the surroundings (generating heat or disorder). This is fascinating though, because our order on planet earth is so immensely greater than that on Mars, any sentient being from any other planet will know that "Evolution" is taking place - that something far more complex than wind and rain is happening.

Evolution itself is something. It is an idea, a system of sorts,[ I know you guys don't like my vocabulary sometimes - I objectify things too much,] but it is plainly different than genuine chaotic motion. Instead of all reactions creating Disorder both in the system & the surroundings, we see the system DECREASING in disorder, while the surroundings increase, which is most definitely not the case in much of chemistry...

ijc you suck cause you don't encorporate subjective things :wink:

 

[Teonanacapilli]

Good points allusion!

"we could differentiate, as they are behaving differently (currently), but nonetheless, the operator (in the sense of the fractal "operator") is still the same. the same thing is going on. these are just examples of the different scales evolution takes place on. it's like a wave. the more you zoom in, the more waves you see, and the more you zoom out, the more you see that those little waves are what the big waves are made of, and that those waves make up more waves and on and on."

I agree with all of that. Like the mental/physical/spiritual self is all still the self.

That could get tricky since biological and societal evolution behave differently in ways

in what ways do you mean specifically?

I wish I had stated in what ways I meant when I posted that, to be honest I don't have a fucking clue!

IJC, I would put "think we" before the word "know" in your sentences. We did at one point, think we "knew" the earth was flat :wink:

 

[IJesusChrist]

... I said "we know not"...

 

[spice]

Religious?

No.

 

[BrainEater]

viewed from a certain perspective, the earth is flat. but if you fold it thru higher dimensions it will appear to be round. we are naturally connected to the higher dimensions, whether we are aware of that or not. we experience the world thru our own eyes and the other senses. apart of that we have the ability to emulate the experience of others within our minds. we can develop empathy for others, just like we can feel "ourselves".
we can show others who they are, if we know who we are ourselves and vice versa. to a certain degree that is also possible if we aren't fully aware of our own identity or supposed identity. so we are the creators or co-creators of our own realities and of others' realities. we are god and god is us. he lives thru us and we live thru him. from nothing to everything and from thought to matter... and vice versa...and everything in between...

peace :weedman: