Quoi de neuf ?

Bienvenue sur Psychonaut.fr !

Le forum des amateurs de drogues et des explorateurs de l'esprit

Psychedelics, Science and Politics

MichaelVipperman

Glandeuse Pinéale
Inscrit
1/8/11
Messages
226
Indeed. The John's Hopkins study has added more recent credence to the uses of psychedelics, the study has not gone away.

Here is another more active site with some excellent information : http://www.maps.org/
 
I realize I could look this up, but perhaps someone on here knows;

Are most of these psychodelic (success) studies done on participants who have previous history in their use?

I'd be curious to know this - to see if the setting of a clinic (I'm sure they take great effort to prepare a comfortable setting) is approachable to new comers of psychodelia, or whether people who are already comfortable with the drugs can accept the setting better.

I have mixed feelings about this research too, but I find it extremely important to our society as a whole... I will damn it, however, when they start putting values and labels on scenarios from ethnobotanical use.
 
Are most of these psychodelic (success) studies done on participants who have previous history in their use?
No. In fact, quite the opposite. They almost exclusively recruited "drug naive" participants, and the one person with a history of psychedelic use who was in one of the previous studies was excluded from this analysis.
I'd be curious to know this - to see if the setting of a clinic (I'm sure they take great effort to prepare a comfortable setting) is approachable to new comers of psychodelia, or whether people who are already comfortable with the drugs can accept the setting better.
As I said, the participants were almost all drug naive. They were, however, all people with some form of spiritual pursuit, so you may well be right that they were particularly suited to the arrangement, insofar as many of them were used to meditation or at least introspection of one form or another. The setting used is designed around maximum introspection, and as long as the participant does what they're asked to and goes inward (headphones and eyeshades on), it's highly effective. Full mystical experience in approximately 60% of participants, and that experience is correlated very strongly with the beneficial outcomes.

If you're interested in a description of the setting used, this is my article on it: http://michaelvipperman.wordpress.com/2 ... erapeutic/

Some of the therapists who've used it insist that until you've tripped this way, you haven't really tripped at all, so prior experience is largely irrelevant.
Cultosaurus a dit:
Here is another more active site with some excellent information : http://www.maps.org/
I hope you're not implying my site is inactive... I post a new article every Sunday at noon. Honestly, MAPS is far too corporate for my liking. I know they've done some good stuff in their time but there's been a lot of political compromise involved in that. Doblin's "Entheogen Corporation" and its habit of making and selling non-entheogenic versions of shamanic medicines is downright reprehensible.
 
No offense, but for some reason I just cannot read blogs... it is some kind of unconscious bias that I have. If it were a book, I would read it fine, but for some reason I just hate blogs... they piss me off.

It is actually a weird tick now that I think about it. :roll:

but you answered my question - none had real drug experience... yet still most had a positive experience. I'd say then, that we could safely assume that introspection without drugs parallels that with drugs.

at the moment I can't word how important that is, but I have a feeling that the implications of this are incredible. perhaps I am just tired.
 
Hm... actually the data contradicts that position. They had histories of introspection and meditation, but the mystical experiences occasioned by psilocybin were far more profound, meaningful and transformative than the spontaneous mystical experiences the participants had had on their own, for the most part. This is backed up by the personality data: regular meditation and introspection has never been shown to cause a significant increase in the domain of Openness. A single (!) session of Psilocybin now has.

Here's the PDF of the original study:
http://michaelvipperman.files.wordpress ... s-2006.pdf
 
As far as reading blogs, I consider mine to be "articles" rather than "blog posts." I mean that in the sense that they're more formal, more carefully written, etc. Some of them will eventually be reworked for use in a book. I'll likely do a first such book this December (more of a zine), and something longer next year.

Tentative title: The Post Apocalyptic Guide to Psychedelic Experience, to be published on Dec 22nd, 2012.
 
What I was getting at at first, where meditation and drugs parallel one another is that they are using the same form of thinking, the same brain processes, and ultimately compound one another;

those with experience in meditation are more likely to have a good experience, than perhaps those without.
 
Reasonable speculation but there's not currently any strong evidence for it. Certainly that was their logic in proposing the initial study... recruit people who, because they're used to introspecting, are likely to at least be amenable to the setting, and who will have a standard of comparison.

The most important factor seems to be a willingness to go inward... people with practice meditating are no doubt more comfortable with that, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily more likely to receive benefit than anybody else you can convince to lie down and close their eyes for the majority of the trip.
 
Very good article Michael.

and as long as the participant does what they're asked to and goes inward (headphones and eyeshades on), it's highly effective.

I just wonder why this form of set and setting is insisted on? Why not communing in nature? What is wil the demand to go inward as if to say that is the only means that makes psychedelic experience healing?
 
I am wondering why my question is being seemingly ignored?
 
zezt a dit:
Very good article Michael.

and as long as the participant does what they're asked to and goes inward (headphones and eyeshades on), it's highly effective.

I just wonder why this form of set and setting is insisted on? Why not communing in nature? What is wil the demand to go inward as if to say that is the only means that makes psychedelic experience healing?

No one is saying that psychedelic healing can only be achieved through the set and setting being employed. This is simply the methodology they have chosen to use and it seems to be working. You must also consider that set and setting need to be tightly controlled in a scientific setting in order to garner useful results (unless of course your were testing set and setting).

No one said communing in nature isn't a reasonable option. You're drawing logically fallacious conclusions. Using this particular set and setting does not imply that all other set and settings are "bad".
 
JimmyEulogy a dit:
zezt a dit:
Very good article Michael.

and as long as the participant does what they're asked to and goes inward (headphones and eyeshades on), it's highly effective.

I just wonder why this form of set and setting is insisted on? Why not communing in nature? What is wil the demand to go inward as if to say that is the only means that makes psychedelic experience healing?

No one is saying that psychedelic healing can only be achieved through the set and setting being employed. This is simply the methodology they have chosen to use and it seems to be working. You must also consider that set and setting need to be tightly controlled in a scientific setting in order to garner useful results (unless of course your were testing set and setting).

No one said communing in nature isn't a reasonable option. You're drawing logically fallacious conclusions. Using this particular set and setting does not imply that all other set and settings are "bad".

OPh God, ya know when i talk i talk like a freakin common person..? I am not thinking about 'logically fallacious conclusions" IF you talk like that to many real people they wouldn't know what your fukin on about. We just speak. OK?

Now Michael said: "The setting used is designed around maximum introspection, and as long as the participant does what they're asked to and goes inward (headphones and eyeshades on), it's highly effective. "

And I am questioning this set and setting. WHY is taking psychedelics in nature with eyes open and/or open and shut alternating NOT 'highly effective'? Who is decinding that 'introspection' is THE way. I know that Albert Hofmann in his 100th Symposium speech emphaszed trippin in nature so we would bond with nature.
 
zezt a dit:
I am wondering why my question is being seemingly ignored?
Sorry for the delay, I had a very busy weekend and didn't notice your question until now.

The answer for "who decided" is a network of psychotherapists, most famously Grof and Zeff. Many different approaches were attempted (combining LSD with hypnotherapy, conventional psychoanalysis, abreaction therapy, etc), and total introspection facilitated by music and eyeshades in a supportive, beautiful environment was settled upon as the most reliable. Since the people doing this deciding were pretty much all coming out of a therapeutic background, and were often treating people who were seriously disturbed in one way or another, they no doubt had biases to therapeutic modalities, and there are no doubt countless settings they never tried, certainly not in a systematic way.

Note that even as part of this setting, they would typically take the people out into nature towards the end of the trip... they'd go for a walk to a nearby lake or pond, that sort of thing. But only late in the experience. That's for LSD, of course, which lasts for long enough that you really can get a good variety without rushing... so there might be 4-5 hours of total introversion, maybe a couple hours of conversation, drawing or other activity (depending how the trip was going), and still time for another couple hours in nature before the drug was really wearing off.

For the purposes of the scientific experiment, Jimmy is quite right: they needed it to be reliable and reproducible. This is a problem in science, that certain modalities, even ones which might have more beneficial results, will not be considered because they cannot be replicated. The idea behind experimental procedure such as implemented at Hopkins is that if somebody in another country thinks they're full of shit or their data is wrong for some reason, they can run the experiment to the specifications described and see what happens. What happens is that ~60% of participants have a "full mystical experience."

That 60% number is very important, because it's stable. Do it in nature and some people might have a mystical experience who would not otherwise, or those that do have one might have a better one... but as the weather is different every day, or as different parts of forest vary, you won't get a stable figure, and thus can't do quantitative science on it. Again, that's a downside to quantitative methods: you can only do the experiment in certain ways, and certain types of questions will be excluded despite seeming important.

Outside of a scientific context and into personal practice, my take is that the psychotherapeutic setting provides the ideal first trip, because of its safety, reliability and intensity. Once you've had a couple trips that way and become more comfortable with psychedelic experience, doing other things like tripping with a lover or tripping in a forest can be pretty amazing and, if you want to make tripping a semi-regular part of your life, you should try them sooner or later. But not for your first time.

(remember on these lines that the Hopkins subjects were drug-naive; it was their first time. In this way I approve of their methodology, objecting only insofar as it gives the false impression that theirs is the only good way to do things, or that they were the ones to "discover" the effects/benefits)

Does that help?
 
Oh, and by the way: once they've gotten the n value a little higher (it's currently at 52 for the Hopkins experiments) and the 60% (or whatever it ends up being) becomes more accurate, we can then use that as a baseline and run experiments using other settings to see if they can produce a larger number. If some other setting can produce full mystical experience in 70% of subjects, that'll become best practices.

Although when it comes to a natural setting you're going to have confounds insofar as it's likely easier to get people to fill out the damn affect questionnaires in a clinic than in the woods. Hard to measure someone's blood pressure when they're up a tree.
 
You gave a good explanation there, but I have other questions. It is good to hear that they go for walks in nature

"What happens is that ~60% of participants have a "full mystical experience."" what is that supposed to mean I am wondering? You say that 60 per cent is im[portant but I wonder what is meant BY 'mystical'?

I have read Grof in the past, I've read quite a few books. I was always concerned with his psychoanalytically-trained emphasis on introspection. You know creating a seeming dichotomy between inner and outter. this reminds me about the spirit and nature divide, or mind/body problem. Also it seems to cut off the person...? ie., you got the eye shades and earphones

I have heard Grof is not ecologically-minded...? Leary wasn't either. He thought the Ecology movement was a hundrance to technological transhumanist space travel
McKenna also emphasized this cut off going 'inward' trip

What I am wanting to see is psychedelic healing healing our rift with the natural world, this is why I am asking these questions. I am just wondering what other healing ritual set and settings can be created?
 
Their definition of a "full mystical experience" is described in their 2006 paper. You should read them in their own words:
http://michaelvipperman.files.wordpress ... s-2006.pdf

Mysticism scale This 32-item questionnaire was developed
to assess primary mystical experiences (Hood et al. 2001;
Spilka et al. 2005). The Mysticism Scale has been extensively studied, demonstrates cross-cultural generalizability,
and is well regarded in the field of the psychology of
religion (Hood et al. 2001; Spilka et al. 2005) but has not
previously been used to assess changes after a drug experience. A total score and three empirically derived factors are
measured: interpretation (corresponding to three mystical
dimensions described by Stace (1960): noetic quality,
deeply felt positive mood, and sacredness); introvertive
mysticism (corresponding to the Stace dimensions of
internal unity, transcendence of time and space, and
ineffability); and extrovertive mysticism (corresponding to
the dimension of the unity of all things/all things are alive).
The items were rated on a nine-point scale (?4=this
description is extremely not true of my own experience or
experiences; 0=I cannot decide; and +4=this description is
extremely true of my own experience or experiences). For
the version of the questionnaire used 7 h after drug
administration, the participants were instructed to complete
the questionnaire with reference to their experiences after
they received the capsules that morning.

As for introspection and cutting off, it certainly doesn't cut off the individual any more than, say, meditation.

Leary's whole "turn on, tune in, drop out" seems relevant... the "tune in" is about the opposite of cutting yourself off.

There's an alchemical metaphor here that gets used by Jung and others, the idea of slow cooking in the dark, letting them reach full "gestation." There are significant advantages to this approach, as long as it's coupled with subsequent expansion into the world.

Contain yourself no longer//contain your self-know longer
 
Basically, they're not looking for people to get high and have a good time. They're looking for people's minds to be completely blown, for ego boundaries to disintegrate, and to attain Oneness with the universe. That apparently happens 60% of the time in their setting... hell of a lot more often than it happens in "recreational" use, although it occasionally happens there. In my experience, many people seem to have that kind of trip occasionally, and those are almost always considered their most profound and meaningful trips (what Shulgin calls +4). Serious users would often like to have them more often, but there's low predictability.

Introspection strengthens trips. There's no doubt about it. Their technique is to take that as far as they can, and it's highly effective, if what you're trying to do is to blow minds. Much smaller doses would probably be just as good for communing with nature or whatever.
 
MichaelVipperman a dit:
Basically, they're not looking for people to get high and have a good time. They're looking for people's minds to be completely blown, for ego boundaries to disintegrate, and to attain Oneness with the universe. That apparently happens 60% of the time in their setting... hell of a lot more often than it happens in "recreational" use, although it occasionally happens there. In my experience, many people seem to have that kind of trip occasionally, and those are almost always considered their most profound and meaningful trips (what Shulgin calls +4). Serious users would often like to have them more often, but there's low predictability.

Introspection strengthens trips. There's no doubt about it. Their technique is to take that as far as they can, and it's highly effective, if what you're trying to do is to blow minds. Much smaller doses would probably be just as good for communing with nature or whatever.

Well I wonder why you seem to assume I mean 'recreation' when I say about open eyed and/or open eyed/closed eyed experience in nature. I am gonna look up a definition of that term:

recreation Look up recreation at Dictionary.com
late 14c., "refreshment or curing of a person, refreshment by eating," from O.Fr. recreacion (13c.), from L. recreationem (nom. recreatio) "recovery from illness," noun of action from pp. stem of recreare "to refresh, restore," from re- "again" (see re-) + creare (see create). Meaning "refresh oneself by some amusement" is first recorded c.1400; abbreviated form rec is attested from 1929. Verb recreate "to refresh by physical influence" is attested from c.1560, but not now used, probably from confusion with recreate. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=recreation

I just feel that term is often used as a form of guilting by the psychotherapetic community. I know very well that some forms of psychedelic taking can be superifical---and the terms some use expose the mindset such as 'getting fucked up' etc. But as seen in that defintition, recreation can also mean exactly what psychedelic healing is about. So to continue

Has anyone done a study to compare the 'introspection' with the--what shall it be called 'exospection'? or the experience people have in natural surroundings, not with eye shades on, or headphones on do you know?
Introspection strengthens trips. There's no doubt about it.

Can you elaborate that assertion? I mean, say that I have eyes open in a psychedelic trip in natural surroundings, and I see a mountain, and the light is utterly aweinspiringly magical, and I walk towards this vision an feel spiritually embodied and connected to all the wild sounds of nature, the air, the scents.....and so on. Where is the data that must prove to me that that experience is less 'strong' than any introspective experience. I am just curious about this. Who is deciding that introspection is 'stronger'. I am not saying it isn't very powerful though of course :)
 
Retour
Haut