Paying for Sex

[MichaelVipperman]

This is an essay I wrote based on Chester Brown's graphic novel, Paying For It. While not about drugs in particularly it's highly analogous in certain ways. Different modes of political action are discussed -- for that reason I could easily have put this in politics, legal issues & the media, for that's exactly the topic here... just that the subject matter is not drugs but prostitution.

http://michaelvipperman.wordpress.com/2 ... ns-burden/

Come to think of it, if you take a spiritual approach to sex, a prostitute could almost be seen as entheogenic...

Anyway, check out the essay. A lot of it is about magic, and you'll probably enjoy it.

 

[Sticki]

Come to think of it, if you take a spiritual approach to sex, a prostitute could almost be seen as entheogenic...

I beg to differ good sir, If your approach to sex is spiritual it should be sacred.

Using a person to release chemicals in the brain is nothing more then abuse. In comparison the prostitute is like cocaine and the nature in which 99% of cocaine is consumed, That being both the cocaine and prostitute are abused to fufill desires with minor respect.

The term entheogen denotes something more then abuse.

 

[MichaelVipperman]

As do I. There's no reason something has to be abuse because money is involved in it, just like you're not abusing the person you paid for the mushrooms.

 

[Guest]

I beg to differ good sir, If your approach to sex is spiritual it should be sacred.

So by definition nothing sacred can be bought?

 

[ophiuchus]

it's all in how it's used. i believe sticki's talking about the non-spiritual, non-ritualistic usage aspect. maybe im wrong in making that assumption, but that's the main difference i see.

 

[Guest]

BTW, I don't think I could manage to pay for sex, and not because I have a moral dilemma with this, but because I just *need* to feel like a share a "bond" with the girl I'm having sex with (and no, financials bonds don't count).

 

[MichaelVipperman]

Whether some things are "inherently" spiritual, or whether they only become spiritual when thought of as such, depends on your epistemology.

Tiax,
Paying won't necessarily preclude also forming some other sort of bond. Depends on the particulars of the situation. There's actually a large market for what's described as a "girlfriend experience." Many people will frequent the same sex worker and become emotionally close... sometimes without sex even taking place (at least at first). I recently read an ethnography about the gijichon clubs in South Korean and how "love" becomes both the objective and a site of agency... the women in the club are frequently looking for someone to marry, and will make the men "prove" their love (often with gifts) before there's any sex. The concept of "bounded authenticity" becomes relevant in certain cases here...

 

[Sticki]

Look up the definition of entheogen and then look at this topic again

 

[MichaelVipperman]

Believe me, I know what entheogen means... it's something that occasions a sense of the sacred or of God. If you have that happen through sex then why wouldn't it count?

 

[Sticki]

I do not disagree a prostitute could be compared to a "Drug" in regards to the release of chemicals in the brain but to go as far as say "Entheogenic" Is a step too far.

I just dont think this kind of experience is possible with something so impersonal like a prostitute.

 

[Guest]

If you have that happen through sex then why wouldn't it count?

It would definately count, and it does for me when I'm with a "special" someone (ie not the girl I ended up with just to have fun for a single evening, althought I try to avoid this precisely because of this lack of a stronger bond).

If you can feel it with a prostitute, then it is *by definition* an entheogenic experience, after all it is a subjective notion if there ever was one.

Hell, even listening to Britney Spears is an entheogenic experience for some people (I'm lieks, 99% sure).

All I know is I don't see how *I* could experiment such a profound feeling with someone I payed to have sex with (along other considerations).

 

[Sticki]

How do you tell the difference between a genuine experience and a fabrication of your mind?

 

[MichaelVipperman]

Now you're in REALLY murky philosophical territory... short answer: you can't.

I just dont think this kind of experience is possible with something so impersonal like a prostitute.

Again, your experience with a prostitute doesn't necessarily have to be impersonal. It might be very intimate and involve a lot of mutual affection. All depends.

 

[Sticki]

Micheal, As soon as you said "A prostitute is comparable to an entheogen" I considerd you in murky philosophical territory.

Brilliant reply Aemilius!

We could be talking about delusions, fantasies or idealisms after all... :lol:

 

[spice]

I don't have a solid opinion yet

:shock:


that's a very interesting line of thought Aemilius

 

[spice]

How about a little bestiality (sex with animals) to really spice things up and get in touch with your animal nature?



hey I see what you did there

 

[spice]

good analogies tho, I did seem to gravitate towards the line of reasoning he (MV) first expressed, namely, that the 'distant' aspect of any supposed relationship with say, a prosti is simply in the eye of the beholder, this exemplified in another way that I thought of- I have known many people who use psychedelics, but most of them have the type of relationship with entheogens that Sticki describes as 'impersonal' when talking about a prostitute

but I like this topic

 

[MichaelVipperman]

But if achieving an elevated spiritual state or some sense of sacredness is achievable paraphilically (paying a prostitute for sex), and if the validity of the approach to any spiritual discipline is wholly dependent on ones epistemology, why stop there?

How about a little bestiality ...

Well, if doing those things will give you spiritual fulfilment, then doing those things will give you spiritual fulfilment. That doesn't mean that they're ETHICAL things to do, or ultimately beneficial. There's more to life than spiritual fulfilment.

This is the same line of reasoning as for excessive fasting and the like... if you're hurting yourself, or scaring the people around you, that will probably outweigh the spiritual benefits you may think you're getting from the fast. The mystics agree on this... St Teresa of Avila cautions strongly against it, saying the Spirit of Evil can trick you into ruining yourself by making you obsess over one technique, leading you to use it excessively.

Similarly, sex can very easily be truly pathological. Apparently rape is very fulfilling... there have been ethnographic studies about this, how men who rape are happier, more content, have greater self-worth, etc after they rape than before. So if we judge by how fulfilling it is to one person, we have to conclude that evil acts are okay. If, however, we consider more people (which we always ought to -- after all, we're all interconnected), it becomes obvious that these acts are damaging to the community or the world around us and therefore to ourselves. And therefore it's bad to do them, even if it might give us some immediate spiritual fulfilment.

 

[mosaicmouse]

How would you define spiritual fulfilment? Is it an epiphenomene of our needs being satisfied?
I don't think so... It could be, but it would also apply to eating a sandwich, thus rendering the term semantically useless.

My idea of this fulfilment mostly covers the transceding of the self and the transceding of the perceptual and conceptual fragmentation/categorisation of reality (=dualism). Sex CAN do this, especially with focus on the transcendence of the self.

As for paying for it... you should both like it, so I guess you should pay each other.
Going to a hooker for yourself is just advanced masturbation.

[troll] Of course one could argue that entheogens can also be used as a form of advanced masturbation. [/endtroll]

:wink:

 

[MichaelVipperman]

How would you define spiritual fulfilment? Is it an epiphenomene of our needs being satisfied?
I don't think so... It could be, but it would also apply to eating a sandwich, thus rendering the term semantically useless.

Not needs in general, but spiritual needs. "Spiritual" is a tricky concept to actually pin down, but this:

the transceding of the self and the transceding of the perceptual and conceptual fragmentation/categorisation of reality (=dualism).

is a good a crack at it as any.

Sex CAN do this, especially with focus on the transcendence of the self.

Exactly.

Paying for sex could, in some cases, be equivalent to paying a spiritual guide. Timothy Leary and others warn against that exact thing, saying you shouldn't trust a guide who asks for money... so both are controversial, but quite possible to benefit from anyway! Sometimes.

As for paying for it... you should both like it, so I guess you should pay each other.

Well ideally both should like it, but I don't see how the second part follows. Let's say rather than vaginal penetration, what you're paying for is for a dominatrix to whip you (or something). She may very well enjoy doing this... but there are a lot more guys who would like a woman to hurt them than there are women who would like to hurt a guy (and know how to do so safely). So even if she might enjoy doing it, paying is going to lead her doing it with you, rather than with the other people she could also choose from.

Then there's the idea of focusing on one partner's pleasure. Personally, I'm all into mutuality and making sure everyone's getting everything they want. But some people will, on occasion, find that to become tedious or implausible... maybe they don't have the skill to please their partner, or maybe they usually do but occasionally they want to be really indulgent and not have to bother. When you pay someone, it becomes all about the person who paid. And the person you're paying may be much more talented than average, so that can be a nice, special treat.

Think of it as analogous to massage if that makes it easier to make sense out of. I may exchange massages for free with friends, but if none of my massage buddies is free on an evening my back is especially sore, and there's somebody who's really good at giving massages who has chosen to quit their job flipping burgers so as to do it full time, and I can afford to pay their rate, why not?