On killing the ego

[EndlessEntity]

exactly ego death can be a shocking slap in the face for some kid on lsd or dmt but it is still ego death if its just someone meditating and this distinction between subjective and objective is what defines ego death.

Ego death is ALWAYS a mega-shocking slap in the face, the kind of gentle, easy experience you allude to here is not going to cause ego to 'die', it is only going to reassure ego

and the distinction between subjective and objective has no relevance whatsoever, since ego death is a subjective experience

objectivity, like any word or thought, is a human creation.

the concept of objectivity is a human creation, but objectivity itself (if it even exists) is not

you can have a gentle happy ego death. on drugs and NOT on drugs. i've done it several times

sure there might be moments where have to get over fear but it can be a gentle joyous experience as well
your wrong about alot of your concepts as there are several methods of achiving altered states that don't involve drugs.

 

[Lazarus]

+1

Well said.Max has understood nothing.

 

[maxfreakout]

you can have a gentle happy ego death.

an encounter with death/ultimate doom is always going to be shocking and elicit a 'panic' reaction, simply because the human organism is innately programmed to try to cling onto life right to the very end. Death is something to be avoided at all costs, we do whatever we possibly can do to stay alive

It is the same situation as if a massive hungry lion suddenly walked into the room and started heading towards you, you would not feel 'gentle and happy' and allow the lion to kill you without resistance, quite the opposite, you would enter into panic mode and do everything you possibly could to save your own life, the raw instinct for self-preservation would completely override rationality.

The lion entering the room is analagous to the feeling of impending doom when you start to trip too hard

there are several methods of achiving altered states that don't involve drugs.

there are no other ergonomic means for triggering the intense mystical altered state temporarily besides the drugs, whilst altered states do occur sometimes, rarely, in people with non-typical brain chemistry without their taking drugs, this is to be contrasted with the fact that taking drugs ALWAYS, 100% guarantees an alteration of consciousness in everybody. No other method besides taking drugs can make this claim of 100% efficacy

Another way to put this, is to say that without drugs, altered states are a rarity or freak-exception, whereas with drugs, non-altered states are a rarity/freak-exception

The bluntest possible way to make this point, which is highly relevant to ego death, is to say that you will never have a 'bad trip' unless you take drugs. In other words, without taking drugs you wont experience 'control loss', while you are meditating you will always retain full control over yourself, when you want to stop meditating, all you have to do is will yourself to stop, but you do not have this luxury when you are on drugs, you have to submit your willpower for the duration of the trip, the only way to stop tripping is to wait for the drugs to wear off (and sometimes that can take eternity to happen :shock: )

 

[ararat]

 

[EndlessEntity]

wow.
its not always YOUR DEATH
its the death of YOUR EGO
will i go insane? will my mind travel back to my body? am i already insane? who am i? do i have a name?

of course i'd be more frightened to walk in a room with a lion rather than walk into a room with a drug.

Max: there are no other ergonomic means for triggering the intense mystical altered state temporarily besides the drugs, whilst altered states do occur sometimes, rarely, in people with non-typical brain chemistry without their taking drugs, this is to be contrasted with the fact that taking drugs ALWAYS, 100% guarantees an alteration of consciousness in everybody. No other method besides taking drugs can make this claim of 100% efficacy

theres several other ways and stop using that word wrong

and taking drugs doenst ALWAYS alter consciousness 100% gaurantee. lets think about Tolerance. and EVERYBODIES BODIES ARE DIFFERENT

my roommate Luke ate 4 grams of shrooms and tripped balllssss i ate about 2 oz's of the SAME SHROOMS and felt the air barely shimmer then was sober

so your wrong about that so quit trying to push it man. im sorry if im coming off as an asshole but you keep pushing that one.


Max: Another way to put this, is to say that without drugs, altered states are a rarity or freak-exception, whereas with drugs, non-altered states are a rarity/freak-exception

The bluntest possible way to make this point, which is highly relevant to ego death, is to say that you will never have a 'bad trip' unless you take drugs. In other words, without taking drugs you wont experience 'control loss', while you are meditating you will always retain full control over yourself, when you want to stop meditating, all you have to do is will yourself to stop, but you do not have this luxury when you are on drugs, you have to submit your willpower for the duration of the trip, the only way to stop tripping is to wait for the drugs to wear off (and sometimes that can take eternity to happen :shock: )

(will yourself to stop) ever eat just ONE potatoe chip?
on drugs like LSD theres a luxury like that called THORAZINE, wouldnt recommend it but im sure its easier than "willing" it to go away if its too HXC for one

 

[maxfreakout]

its not always YOUR DEATH
its the death of YOUR EGO

you ARE your ego ('ego' means the same as 'self'), it's the death of the thing that the word 'I' (or 'you') refers to

ego death is when you trip hard and the voice in your head (which speaks your thoughts) says something like "oh shit i'm dead". Ego always reacts to impending death in exactly the same way that it would if a hungry lion walks into the room, it triggers the fight-or-flight panic response

and taking drugs doenst ALWAYS alter consciousness 100% gaurantee. lets think about Tolerance. and EVERYBODIES BODIES ARE DIFFERENT

taking drugs will always alter consciousness if you take enough, if you take drugs and dont experience altered consciousness, it just means you havent taken enough

there are some rare cases where people are immune to certain drugs, for example some small percentage of people cannot trip off of Salvia Divinorum, but nobody is immune to all drugs. Generally it seems to be the case that some drugs work better for some people, so everybody needs to find the drug(s) that work for them

my roommate Luke ate 4 grams of shrooms and tripped balllssss i ate about 2 oz's of the SAME SHROOMS and felt the air barely shimmer then was sober

Generally the dose for psilocybin is around 40mg iirc, but different people have different tolerances. Again, if you take psilocybin and dont trip, it just means you havent taken enough.

on drugs like LSD theres a luxury like that called THORAZINE, wouldnt recommend it but im sure its easier than "willing" it to go away if its too HXC for one

Thorazine does not stop an LSD trip, as it says on erowid, after thorazine is administered: "Detailed retrospective analysis of this situation usually shows that the patient experiences the action of both drugs simultaneously, and that the combined effect is rather unpleasant"

Also thorazine is very physically dangerous (it has been referred to as a 'chemical lobotomy'), and stopping a trip early can cause psychiatric problems also (Grof has written about this), so it is not a 'luxury', also it is very difficult to get hold of, most people tripping out on LSD will not simply be able to 'reach for the thorazine in the cupboard' to stop the trip

 

[EndlessEntity]

its not always YOUR DEATH
its the death of YOUR EGO

you ARE your ego ('ego' means the same as 'self'), it's the death of the thing that the word 'I' (or 'you') refers to

ego death is when you trip hard and the voice in your head (which speaks your thoughts) says something like "oh shit i'm dead". Ego always reacts to impending death in exactly the same way that it would if a hungry lion walks into the room, it triggers the fight-or-flight panic response

no
you are not your ego
you are merely awareness your ego is a mental construct that takes place within you being awareness

 

[Jeniger]

are u sure you are the max from the podcast?

I expected another mindset afther all those podcasts

 

[itsscience]

I find it amusing that on a topic entitled "On killing the ego" there seem to be so many ego's involved.

I am new to this forum and to psychadelic forums in general. I'm not sure what an ego death is and I'm fairly sure I've never had one - at least according to the accounts of people on here. I have had a couple of evil trips where reality and my belief in it had become so warped that I convinced myself I was going to die - this did not lead to any feeling of euphoria or new awareness, I was just really glad when it wore off and I stayed away from that particular drug for a long time nothing more.

I came to this site thinking I'd find an inclusive, enlightened community whereas what I seem to have found is a group of people engaging in what I can only call "halucinatory one up manship."

Perhaps I really do need to travel to some far distant place and find a shaman/mystic to find what I'm looking for. All I seem to be finding here is a lot of ego.

 

[maxfreakout]

I find it amusing that on a topic entitled "On killing the ego" there seem to be so many ego's involved.

there are 2 distinct meanings of the word 'ego' which you are mixing up here ^. The ego which dies in ego death is the self-controlling homunculus which sits inside the head holding the personal steering wheel, in other words the agent who possesses the power of free-will. This is a different thing entirely from 'ego' as in 'arrogance'

I am new to this forum and to psychadelic forums in general. I'm not sure what an ego death is and I'm fairly sure I've never had one - at least according to the accounts of people on here. I have had a couple of evil trips where reality and my belief in it had become so warped that I convinced myself I was going to die - this did not lead to any feeling of euphoria or new awareness, I was just really glad when it wore off and I stayed away from that particular drug for a long time nothing more.

that is basically it, ego death is the experience of tripping too hard and freaking out, it doesnt necessarily lead to 'euphoria' but it does lead to a transformed perspective on life if it is integrated into everyday life (ie if it is taken seriously)

Perhaps I really do need to travel to some far distant place and find a shaman/mystic to find what I'm looking for. All I seem to be finding here is a lot of ego.

the 'distant places' are all locked up inside your head, you just need to eat the right keys......

 

[maxfreakout]

are u sure you are the max from the podcast?

I expected another mindset afther all those podcasts

there's only one Max Freakout :twisted:

i talked extensively about these issues on the podcast, listen to the 2 episodes i recorded with 'Peacekeeper'

 

[itsscience]

max, the ego comment was made tongue in cheek. The ego that is being referred to here in terms of "ego death" is what I know as the id.

 

[itsscience]

that is basically it, ego death is the experience of tripping too hard and freaking out, it doesnt necessarily lead to 'euphoria' but it does lead to a transformed perspective on life if it is integrated into everyday life (ie if it is taken seriously)

Well if that is it then you don't need drugs at all, a near death experience of any kind will do it.

 

[maxfreakout]

Well if that is it then you don't need drugs at all, a near death experience of any kind will do it.

yes ego death is essentially a 'near death experience', of a very specific and special kind (because it is mental death, a opposed to physical/bodily death), and it has the same psychologically transformative nature, people will say something like: "i had this experience where i came face to face with death and with my own fragile mortality, and it profoundly and permanently changed my life after i survived it"

but it seems very weird indeed to say that "you dont need drugs" to get this kind of profound transformation, after all which would you prefer, a bad LSD trip or a car crash?? A bad LSD trip wont leave you physically crippled, a car crash very likely will. The 'Saw' movie series explores this whole idea

The advantages of the drug route (as opposed to the car crash route) are obvious, you emerge from a bad acid trip physically unscathed. The problem with near death experiences like car crashes etc is that they are so incredibly dangerous, whereas psychedelic trips by contrast are very safe. That is part of the whole 'ergonomic' advantage that the drugs have over all the non-drug methods, ie the safety of the drugs. You can starve yourself for days on end and maybe experience ego death, but that is very (physically) dangerous compared to just taking acid and freaking out for a few hours

and another obvious advantage that the drugs have is their controllability, it is practically impossible to control a near death experience via a car crash for example, whereas tripping is very easy to control

 

[maxfreakout]

The ego that is being referred to here in terms of "ego death" is what I know as the id.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Freudian 'id', and generally speaking, Freudian psychoanalytic theory is not very helpful for understanding these psychedelic ideas (Freud was a million miles off of an understanding of mysticism and mystical psychosis)

the ego is very simply the self-controller, ie the origin of your power to control your thoughts and actions from moment to moment (in particular your thoughts).

Descartes was zeroing in on this specific concept of 'ego' with his famous statement that "i think, therefore i exist", ego is the thinker, ie the source of the thoughts that pop into your mind when you are engaged in thought. when the thought that "I am dead" pops into the mind during a strong trip, that is ego death, because the thinker (the ego) is thinking that it has died. Why would you think you have died when you are actually just harmlessly tripping?

And of course, the same exact principle applies to near death experiences like car crashes, in that instant when your car collides with the car in front, the ego (ie the thinker, the internal mental 'voice') would no doubt be saying something like "this is it, im going to die now"

the drugs are by far the safest, and most reliable (ie the most ergonomic) way to elicit this profoundly transformative experience of 'thinking that you have died, but then subsequently realising that you havent'

 

[Lazarus]

Max do you claim to have experienced ego death?
If so how many times?
Under what circumstances?
Exactly what happened?

 

[maxfreakout]

Max do you claim to have experienced ego death?
If so how many times?
Under what circumstances?
Exactly what happened?

it is necessary to distinguish between two different senses of 'ego death' in order to answer these questions.

Firstly, you have 'ego death' as in 'thinking that you have died/gone permanently crazy/reached the end of time etc'

Secondly, you have 'ego death' as in 'the permanent psychological transformation which results from the transient/temporary ego death experience, in which the mind permanently switches from believing in the literal existence of the ego entity, to believing in a higher power (God or timeless determinism) which effectively disproves the literal existence of ego (although ego remains as a convenient, stabilising illusion)'

In the first sense of 'ego death', this has happened to me a number of times, i have tripped hard and felt profoundly destabilised during the experience, to the extent that i entertained paranoid thoughts that i might have pushed my mind too far into the psychedelic vortex

in the second sense, this can only ever happen once, and it has happened to me, I experienced one trip (and a subsequent period of mental destabilisation which lasted for a few months) which permanently transformed the way i think about life/existence/the world etc. Before that trip, i used to take it for granted that the world which appears before my eyes was simply 'real' (including myself, a little man in that world), i no longer think this way, now i recognise that there is a higher perspective, from which the world (and, crucially, myself within that world) is revealed to be merely illusory.

What happened was, i tripped too hard one night, i was on my own at the time, and during that trip i died and went to hell, i became utterly convinced that i had gone permanently insane and that i could never possibly return to the world of ordinary existence (ie the ordinary state of consciousness)

 

[Lazarus]

Where do car acidents fit into that?

What about near death experiences?
Have you ever had any?
How many?
Under what circumstances?

EDIT

What were you loke before yout ego death experiences?
What are you like after those experiences and what changes did they make in you?

 

[EndlessEntity]

I find it amusing that on a topic entitled "On killing the ego" there seem to be so many ego's involved.

there are 2 distinct meanings of the word 'ego' which you are mixing up here ^. The ego which dies in ego death is the self-controlling homunculus which sits inside the head holding the personal steering wheel, in other words the agent who possesses the power of free-will. This is a different thing entirely from 'ego' as in 'arrogance'



There is only ONE EGO

it is NOT YOU

It IS a part of you

EGO does NOT mean arrogance
this is the mistake Ayn Rand Writes for
Selfishness is normally considered "bad" but no ones gunna breathe air into your lungs for you
might as well be selfish enough or arrogant enough to breathe wouldnt you think?

yes society has givin Ego the same negative connotation thats been givin to "selfishness"
Egotism and Selfishness are NOT bad things. try living without them. who would you be living for?


EDIT* Also Itsscience some people on here are 'trolls' but looking down our noses at them only acknowledges that our heads are high. This website and its people have its flaws
BUT!!!! I love all you guys. i sleep easy knowing theres a community of like-minded people arguing the semantics of ego death. living in a city of thugs where reading is looked down upon and life is about money and bitches, a website where alike intellects can congregate is a breath of fresh air

 

[Lazarus]

EndlessEntity could you please mark the quotes that you make clearly as i often have dificulty understanding wich parts of your posts are quotes and wich part are your replys.Thank you.