On killing the ego

[maxfreakout]

max freakout, schizophrenics don't just fall into this group of people tripping all the time.

My mother works with them all the time, and they are NOT experiencing any kind of ego death when they have an episode. I wouldn't speak for schizophrenics as mystical shamans or constantly enlightened, or even continuously experiencing ego death. Sure, there are some very intelligent schizo's, but the majority are not. The majority are very ill people who lose a great amount of touch with reality. You cannot label all schizophrenics like this.

the ego death experience is the most extreme psychotic break with ordinary reality, schizophrenic people only experience this in the fullest sense during the 'peak' of a psychotic episode, they are not experiencing it all the time. Schizophrenic cognitive processing and psychedelic tripping both have in common this essential 'break' from ordinary reality (ie the ordinary state of consciousness), the mind adopts a 'hyperreflexive' point of view which reveals the representative nature of mental constructs (it breaks apart the symbol-referent association). The reason schizophrenics hear 'voices' is because they are perceiving their own internal mental dialogue from this viewpoint.

 

[maxfreakout]

psychedelics do NOT have to have ANYTHING to do with ego death, ever heard of Buddhism? gnosticism? even Christianity preaching their "christ's body being crucified".

Psychedelics are the typical cause of ego death, you trip too hard and go insane, your most basic ontological foundations completely dissolve

Buddhism, gnosticism, christianity etc etc are all big arrows pointing towards the ego death experience, Jesus dying on the crucifix and being ressurected is precisely equivalent to Buddha's enlightenment under the Bodhi tree, these are two allegorical references to psychedelic mental transformation

tripping and being in those altered states can and usually will lead you to ego "death" eventually. but what your saying is that any psychedelic causes ego death and that for schizo's it just never goes away....

that's not what im saying, the ego death is the ultimate 'peak' mystical experience, which causes a permanent shift in understanding which remains after the trip ends. Psychedelic tripping and schizophrenic psychosis are both essentially characterised by this 'hyperreflexive' point of view in which consciousness is directed inwards, ego death is the peak insight that derives from this point of view (ie the insight that the ego is unreal)

your saying to experience ego death you must be "tripping"

Yes ego death is what happens when you trip too hard and lose grip of mental control

and that szhizos are Perpetually tripping.

No not perpetually, the schizophrenic mind oscillates unstably between the ordinary cognitive mode and the altered state mode, on a daily basis

 

[IJesusChrist]

Do you have a degree in psychoanalysis, or 10+ years of experience working with schizophrenics?

If not, I'm not going to read any of that...

 

[maxfreakout]

Do you have a degree in psychoanalysis, or 10+ years of experience working with schizophrenics?

i have a masters degree in philosophy of psychiatry, and im currently writing a PhD thesis on schizophrenic phenomenology, what im saying here has nothing to do with psychoanalysis

 

[IJesusChrist]

I take back my critical conjecture, I'll read what you have to say with a bit more validity now.

 

[EndlessEntity]

max. i cannot aggree with you
i've done crazy drugs all my life and yes sometimes you trip too hard and could experience ego death
but it IS possible to experience ego death WITHOUT drugs. as is encouraged by several cultures...

 

[EndlessEntity]

my uncle experiences ego death every day. he lives in ego death. this doesnt mean he doesnt have an ego
it means after years of spiritual searching and psychological practice he can voluntarily differentiate between his ego and his awareness. he can become his subjective (body, prejudices, emotions) or he can become his objective essential awareness.
i myself have been studying it with him for a few years now and can have brief moments of ego death throughout my day
even when im sober. but i dont live as lucidly as my uncle, hes had much more practice than i.

 

[maxfreakout]

max. i cannot aggree with you
i've done crazy drugs all my life and yes sometimes you trip too hard and could experience ego death
but it IS possible to experience ego death WITHOUT drugs. as is encouraged by several cultures...

i totally agree, without doubt some people do, rarely, profound mental transformation without the use of drugs

however drugs are the *typical* cause of these kinds of experiences, drugs are the only reliable, repeatable way to trigger intense mystical/religious altered states of consciousness (and concomitantly, their potential to cause permanent cessation of ego-identification)

any culture/group/religion or whatever which 'encourages' people to try and have these kinds of experiences without using drugs is invariably going to be considerably less successful (ie at getting people to experience the altered states) than another culture which actually suggests and encourages using drugs

To sum it up, it is *practically impossible* to trip repeatedly without taking entheogens, there is no practical alternative to the drugs

 

[IJesusChrist]

You should tell that to the 16 year old me... :roll:

 

[maxfreakout]

my uncle experiences ego death every day. he lives in ego death. this doesnt mean he doesnt have an ego
it means after years of spiritual searching and psychological practice he can voluntarily differentiate between his ego and his awareness. he can become his subjective (body, prejudices, emotions) or he can become his objective essential awareness.
i myself have been studying it with him for a few years now and can have brief moments of ego death throughout my day
even when im sober. but i dont live as lucidly as my uncle, hes had much more practice than i.

it seems there is some equivocation on what is meant by 'ego death'

I am using this term to refer to the peak mystical experience of mentally 'dying' during an altered state experience, the 'self' which is conceived of primarily as the author of the subjective stream of thoughts, becomes profoundly overwhelmed by the sheer intensity of the altered state and then 'thinks' that it has died. So in ego death the inner 'voice' which speaks the thoughts says something like "i must have died/gone permanently crazy/reached the end of the world etc", the person 'thinks to themselves' that the ordinary mode of experience has permanently finished, and that theya re therefore now 'trapped' in a perpetual altered state.

This is not something that anybody can experience 'everyday' and continue to live a normal life, the kind of experience you describe your uncle as having are not the same thing, he is not 'dying' on a daily basis

 

[ararat]

max, I appreciate your knowledge in these areas, but I think you emphasize drugs way too much. drugs may be able to trigger mystical states, but they are temporary, or at least I haven't heard of any person for whom it wasn't temporary.

you get big insights, which may well become very useful roadposts on your spiritual path, but it's not like you take drug x often enough and you will end up enlightened.
is there one enlightened sage who got there by the path of drugs? you can gather great knowledge, but to permanently merge the knower and the known you will need some kind of divine grace and/or great devotion and surrender rather than high doses of psychedelics.

there well are practical alternatives if you don't have a rush, such as any kind of yoga. bhakti, raja, jnana, karma yoga etc.. what about advaita, zen buddhism? you don't trip, but you can reach the states we are all after here. which, I think is not egodeath, but the relinquishing of the identification with the ego and the realization of the Self as a consequence.

most times ego identification had ceased and everything shone forth its vibrant liveliness I didn't take any drugs. there is a difference though, with drugs the revelation is a lot more radical than it is with spiritual inquiry. and I'm not sure if I'd be on this path if it wasn't for an egodeath experience.

 

[maxfreakout]

max, I appreciate your knowledge in these areas, but I think you emphasize drugs way too much. drugs may be able to trigger mystical states, but they are temporary, or at least I haven't heard of any person for whom it wasn't temporary.

Yes the intense mystical state is temporary, it lasts just until the drugs wear off. If this were not the case, ie so that the altered states re-occur uncontrollably during daily life, then the grip on reality is completely lost, the person is schizophrenic and will likely end up in a mental hospital. That's the great thing about drugs which makes it important to thoroughly emphasize them, I place central emphasis on the drugs because only drugs provide a means for anybody to *temporarily* dip into the crazy, zany world of schizoid (ie 'split', dissociated, hyperreflexive) mental processing

you get big insights, which may well become very useful roadposts on your spiritual path, but it's not like you take drug x often enough and you will end up enlightened.

the crucial, million-dollar 'insight' that tripping reveals is the illusory nature of cross-time self-identity (ie the ego-agent), when you come to fully acknowledge this, and retain this acknowledgement permanently in the ordinary state of consciousness, you are 'an enlightened sage', a hallowed saint, divinely chosen prophet, philosopher-king etc etc (choose your metaphor)

it has little to with how 'often' you take drugs, only a handful of intense experiences, combined with study of the relevant perennial philosophical themes, are required to effect the full mental transformation from egoic (ego-based) thinking to transcendent thinking.

is there one enlightened sage who got there by the path of drugs?

Practically every 'enlightened sage' owes their enlightenment to the drugs. The spiritual authority of a person is relative to the spiritual authority of their own teacher, and the entheogens are the highest teachers, they are the divine revealers of spiritual insight.

you can gather great knowledge, but to permanently merge the knower and the known you will need some kind of divine grace and/or great devotion and surrender rather than high doses of psychedelics.

Concepts such as 'divine grace' and 'great devotion and surrender' (also 'realising the non-dual nature of reality') are all, essentially, metaphors for transcendental cognitive dynamics, ie their meaning is primarily given by the kinds of things people experience when they trip hard on entheogens. So you are setting up a false dichotomy by attempting to distinguish these metaphors from 'high doses of psychedelics' - they are two sides of the same thing.

In other words, during an intense trip (ie a crazy, difficult, challenging powerfully emotional psychedelic session), the concept of 'humbly surrendering to an awesome higher power' can sudenly become a tremendously *important* (perhaps a 'matter of life and death' :shock: ) issue for the tripper.

there well are practical alternatives if you don't have a rush, such as any kind of yoga. bhakti, raja, jnana, karma yoga etc..

these are not 'alternatives' to drugs, because none of them can 100% guarantee that you will experience the intense mystical state of consciousness. Drugs are the only method that can make this guarantee, when you take drugs you will invariably trip, when you dont take drugs you wont.

what about advaita, zen buddhism? you don't trip, but you can reach the states we are all after here. which, I think is not egodeath, but the relinquishing of the identification with the ego and the realization of the Self as a consequence.

advaita and zen buddhism, in their original conceptions, are both highly sophisticated models of mystical state experiencing, all mythology and religion equivalently performs this central function, they model and allegorise the kinds of experiences you have when you trip. On their own, they do not make you trip, they are intended to be combined with drugs (ie tripping sessions interspersed by study of advaita/zen philosophical principles).

Ego death IS the 'relinquishing of identification with the ego' (or at least an essential 'part' of it), so again you set up a false dichotomy by distinguishing them from each other, in the ego death experience, you vividly perceive the illusory aspect of ego, and you canot forget the experience afterwards. This memory that ego death imprints on the mind serves as a constant corrective reminder that ego is ultimately unreal, so even after the trip ends, you are no longer able to fully identify with ego (your basic system of logic wont let you).

most times ego identification had ceased and everything shone forth its vibrant liveliness I didn't take any drugs. there is a difference though, with drugs the revelation is a lot more radical than it is with spiritual inquiry. and I'm not sure if I'd be on this path if it wasn't for an egodeath experience.

A vital quality that the drugs have is the intensity of the experiences they cause, the ego must be 'overwhelmed' by a very powerful force to coerce it into relinquishing its most cherished possesion (ie its cross-time identity)

 

[EndlessEntity]

Yes the intense mystical state is temporary, it lasts just until the drugs wear off. If this were not the case, ie so that the altered states re-occur uncontrollably during daily life, then the grip on reality is completely lost, the person is schizophrenic and will likely end up in a mental hospital. That's the great thing about drugs which makes it important to thoroughly emphasize them, I place central emphasis on the drugs because only drugs provide a means for anybody to *temporarily* dip into the crazy, zany world of schizoid (ie 'split', dissociated, hyperreflexive) mental processing


it has little to with how 'often' you take drugs, only a handful of intense experiences, combined with study of the relevant perennial philosophical themes, are required to effect the full mental transformation from egoic (ego-based) thinking to transcendent thinking.

is there one enlightened sage who got there by the path of drugs?

Practically every 'enlightened sage' owes their enlightenment to the drugs. The spiritual authority of a person is relative to the spiritual authority of their own teacher, and the entheogens are the highest teachers, they are the divine revealers of spiritual insight.

you can gather great knowledge, but to permanently merge the knower and the known you will need some kind of divine grace and/or great devotion and surrender rather than high doses of psychedelics.

Concepts such as 'divine grace' and 'great devotion and surrender' (also 'realising the non-dual nature of reality') are all, essentially, metaphors for transcendental cognitive dynamics, ie their meaning is primarily given by the kinds of things people experience when they trip hard on entheogens. So you are setting up a false dichotomy by attempting to distinguish these metaphors from 'high doses of psychedelics' - they are two sides of the same thing.

In other words, during an intense trip (ie a crazy, difficult, challenging powerfully emotional psychedelic session), the concept of 'humbly surrendering to an awesome higher power' can sudenly become a tremendously *important* (perhaps a 'matter of life and death' :shock: ) issue for the tripper.

there well are practical alternatives if you don't have a rush, such as any kind of yoga. bhakti, raja, jnana, karma yoga etc..

these are not 'alternatives' to drugs, because none of them can 100% guarantee that you will experience the intense mystical state of consciousness. Drugs are the only method that can make this guarantee, when you take drugs you will invariably trip, when you dont take drugs you wont.

what about advaita, zen buddhism? you don't trip, but you can reach the states we are all after here. which, I think is not egodeath, but the relinquishing of the identification with the ego and the realization of the Self as a consequence.

advaita and zen buddhism, in their original conceptions, are both highly sophisticated models of mystical state experiencing, all mythology and religion equivalently performs this central function, they model and allegorise the kinds of experiences you have when you trip. On their own, they do not make you trip, they are intended to be combined with drugs (ie tripping sessions interspersed by study of advaita/zen philosophical principles).

Ego death IS the 'relinquishing of identification with the ego' (or at least an essential 'part' of it), so again you set up a false dichotomy by distinguishing them from each other, in the ego death experience, you vividly perceive the illusory aspect of ego, and you canot forget the experience afterwards. This memory that ego death imprints on the mind serves as a constant corrective reminder that ego is ultimately unreal, so even after the trip ends, you are no longer able to fully identify with ego (your basic system of logic wont let you).

most times ego identification had ceased and everything shone forth its vibrant liveliness I didn't take any drugs. there is a difference though, with drugs the revelation is a lot more radical than it is with spiritual inquiry. and I'm not sure if I'd be on this path if it wasn't for an egodeath experience.

A vital quality that the drugs have is the intensity of the experiences they cause, the ego must be 'overwhelmed' by a very powerful force to coerce it into relinquishing its most cherished possesion (ie its cross-time identity)

my mom teaches yoga... she doesnt do any "drugs" which btw ANYTHING can be a drug.
after her workouts she "floats" and experiences ego death. she does this daily. she also teaches 8th grade math.
just because some people need the drugs doesnt make it true for everyone else.
ego death is purely attainable WITHOUT drugs
any time you would like
go on try it for yourself
experience ego death
if you cant and you "need" the drugs
then it is because you have too many attatchments to this world and your "ego"

 

[maxfreakout]

my mom teaches yoga... she doesnt do any "drugs" which btw ANYTHING can be a drug.
after her workouts she "floats" and experiences ego death. she does this daily. she also teaches 8th grade math.
just because some people need the drugs doesnt make it true for everyone else.
ego death is purely attainable WITHOUT drugs
any time you would like
go on try it for yourself
experience ego death
if you cant and you "need" the drugs
then it is because you have too many attatchments to this world and your "ego"

You are not talking about the experience of mystical death in the altered state, so it is pointless to talk in terms of 'ego death' since we both mean different things by this term. So dont think of it as 'experiencing ego death', instead think of it as 'experiencing temporary intense mystical altered states of consciousness' or 'tripping', you do not experience this from doing a yoga workout (under normal circumstances, for the vast majority of people). Psychedelic drugs make you trip.

And to be clear the only 'drugs' that i am talking about are the entheogens/psychedelics, the plants and chemicals that induce mystical experiences when they are ingested

 

[ararat]

Practically every 'enlightened sage' owes their enlightenment to the drugs. The spiritual authority of a person is relative to the spiritual authority of their own teacher, and the entheogens are the highest teachers, they are the divine revealers of spiritual insight.

can you explain this differently? I don't get it. the first sentence seems very senseless, and the following ones don't clear much of it.

these are not 'alternatives' to drugs, because none of them can 100% guarantee that you will experience the intense mystical state of consciousness. Drugs are the only method that can make this guarantee, when you take drugs you will invariably trip, when you dont take drugs you wont.

and even those won't guarantee 100%.


I gotta go, will reply later

 

[EndlessEntity]

my mom teaches yoga... she doesnt do any "drugs" which btw ANYTHING can be a drug.
after her workouts she "floats" and experiences ego death. she does this daily. she also teaches 8th grade math.
just because some people need the drugs doesnt make it true for everyone else.
ego death is purely attainable WITHOUT drugs
any time you would like
go on try it for yourself
experience ego death
if you cant and you "need" the drugs
then it is because you have too many attatchments to this world and your "ego"

You are not talking about the experience of mystical death in the altered state, so it is pointless to talk in terms of 'ego death' since we both mean different things by this term. So dont think of it as 'experiencing ego death', instead think of it as 'experiencing temporary intense mystical altered states of consciousness' or 'tripping', you do not experience this from doing a yoga workout (under normal circumstances, for the vast majority of people). Psychedelic drugs make you trip.

And to be clear the only 'drugs' that i am talking about are the entheogens/psychedelics, the plants and chemicals that induce mystical experiences when they are ingested

so your talking about "profound Psychedelic insight".... what your saying is that your not talking about ego death at all...
im not talking about the experience of mystical death in the altered state? are you sure?
think of it as "experiencing temporary intense mystical altered states of consciousness" (or tripping)
thats great until you said "or tripping"

 

[maxfreakout]

so your talking about "profound Psychedelic insight".... what your saying is that your not talking about ego death at all...

The psychedelic experience gives deep metaphysical 'insights', and the central, most profound and important insight is the illusory aspect of cross-time identity, - that is the insight which leads the mind inexorably into ego death

When the point of view of timeless unity is revealed in the altered state, the belief in cross-time identity is forcibly disproved by the experience, this is experienced as a 'death' of the self which conceived of itself as a cross-time (ie temporally continuant) agent. That is the ego death experience, you trip too hard and you unexpectedly fall into a time-vortex which permanently transforms/reconfigures the mind, this is the most profound, intense and life-altering experience in this life.

 

[ararat]

I'm getting a bit tired intellectualizing about these matters. I see that a great deal of the people involved in this discussion had their share of insights, and that, in the end, we are all talking about the very same thing. doesn't matter what egodeath "is", and what it "is" not, or what it "is" what people experience who do yoga, meditation and relentless self-inquiry.
watch out not to develop a spiritual ego.

 

[Jeniger]

watch out not to develop a spiritual ego.

:!: +1


[youtube]37krjIX55YM[/youtube]

Ram Dass - The I behind the I

At the moment i don't have a desire yet to bring it back into science, or to know I know, i am a student,a beginning student, in this whole process. And as i understand it finally:

"One teaches by one's being, it isn't what u say, it's the state of your own existence, because that's a whole level of interpersonal relation about vibrations and what u communicate to other people,

not what u say but what u are"

 

[EndlessEntity]

my uncle fasted in the desert for 4 weeks that was the most profound and powerful moment in his life.
didnt require drugs.