Money, $

[Guest]

Thank you Avatar for being much more patient than I am.

 

[Jeniger]

Who says i am a hippy, and who says i am not labeled mentally unable to work.

In this discussion we're assuming you're mentally and physically able to work. If you were not, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Your position is "I will refuse to live as a slave and encourage everyone to do the same..." This discussion is based on that statement.

The goverment is the one who judged that i am not able to work mentally according the dsm:v standards

As long everyone goes to work everyday and follow the sheep

Going to work has nothing to do with following the sheep, but being realistic about human necessities.

I am not against working, i am against the unfair way, that people work for small wages and its the big companies who take the profit of the labour we do, u can compare my goal with a strike

we maintain this unfair divided monetary system.

I don't think that's relevant to this discussion, because your living off welfare doesn't change anything about this. It's even unfair to those who do work, and can make things more difficult for those who actually need and deserve welfare (see below).

Offcourse its unfair that is the whole point and why its relevant

All the money i get i try to spend it as much as possible on organic local fair trade items, so that the money doesn't return again in this unfair devided monetary sytem that easily.

That's very noble, but there are thousands of people who do the same thing with the money they earned by working. In fact I know quite a few psychonauts who have regular jobs and do all or most of their shopping in health food stores.

Good to hear, but i wrote it just to ellaborate my ideals.

What u see as a devided duty and a convient way,.. i see as slavery, don't forget the third world.

That's not the division that I was talking about. And besides: two wrongs don't make a right. Just because there is slavery, injustice and war in the world, doesn't mean your decision to live off our tax money is right.

Off all the jobs i have had...i indirectly exploited poor countries, thats why i got so frustrated when i became aware of this

Not everyone has the luck to be able to make money with his or her passion

It's not a matter of luck, but of self-determination and perseverance. But actually, I never said everyone will be able to make money with his or her passion. What I said was: "...if you're intelligent and enthusiastic you will start earning more and more, especially when you find your passion."

With some passions it is just not possible to make money, especially if your ideal is not making money with your passion to maintain the art true

Many people end up with heavy boring jobs were its not easy to be enthousiastic

Well, I'm not talking about all people. I'm specifically talking about psychonauts and those in the psytrance scene.

I just tell you what i have seen around me. I am not familair with the psytrance scene

besides of that i am not the person who wants more and more money, i am the person who cares more about time, time to explore myself

We're not talking about more and more money, we're talking about paying for your basic expenses: food, drink and shelter. That should be your personal responsibility, not that of the state and its tax-payers (me included).

the part from your taxes that goes to social benefit is so small, really check the statistics, if everything was divided fairly, everyone could work less and live without money problems.

what u claim is really narrow minded and not true. :roll: People with opinions like this make me very sad.

I'm just expressing what most tax-payers are thinking about the position you're taking. Aside from this general opinion, I'm particularly disturbed that this attitude has pervaded the psytrance scene.

Too bad it's pervaded in the psytrance scene, i come from the punk/crust scene :finga: And by the way, i pay taxes too, i did for years and i still do

I think that everyone should be able to do what he wants in life without doing any harm to any living being on this planet. And the welfare institution gives me space(in the way they agree with me) to live my own life without conforming so why should i feel guilty.

But it is because of people like you that governments have to become more strict and controlling with regards to welfare. Because of people like you those who really need welfare have a much harder time getting and maintaining one. In the US they are now considering random drug testing for those who are on welfare. With so many hippies "encouraging everyone to live off welfare, because the system is so bad and there are wars and slave labor" you'll eventually have such random drug tests in your country as well.

Who are you to judge if i need welfare or not, if the welfare institution gives me welfare based on everything i have said to you now, why would the goverment become more strict,.... i thought psychonauts were without pre-judgements

Actually i feel sorry for u closed minded folks ...especially tiax... dont be so rude!!!

 

[Mescaline]

I have one question: what actual use is there to working? (assuming that it is NOT your hobby)

Non-valid answers, that i can think of right now (imo; i'll explain below):

-For new discoveries
-Distribution/Availability of goods
-To make money -> To be able to survive/live

I don't considers these valid answers because (1) new discoveries, if they truly are important (and/or effective), will be made anyway, maybe a bit delayed.. but who cares, I'm not in a hurry anyhow, and apart from that.. there will always be people who will do their own little research as a hobbie; (2) distribution of goods, is not a necessaty, everybody could be able to grow they're own food.. all this distribution is a useless luxury; (3) you don't need money, you can grow your own stuff. Money, imo, is just some tool used to keep people inside this slavery system, whether you're on welfare or not, doesn't matter, we're all slaves, some conscoius of it, most not..

One valid answer I could think of was proffesions that actually help other people with their problems and/or injuries.


In sum, my opinion of working is just, that I do not like the idea of people working 'so they can live/survive', that's just utter total bullshit****. I'm all for 'working' (if you can still call it that, in this sense; I certainly don't) just to help, or just to discover soemthing (personally interesting), or just to *DO* something... But forcing people into commiting to some job, for which they need an education, which they might've not gotten, because they weren't ready for it at the time, that sounds like treating humans as soul-less machines; and that's exactly what is happening. I'd much rather see motivated future/potential [insert proffesion here] be taught by [insert professional] DIRECTLY, not through books, not through film, not through pictures [sure you can use them as an aid]. Just let the professional SHOW his/her students how to do 'X'. Now one potential problem in my little utopia, is that the world as of now, is drastically OVERpopulated.. This, I don;t know how to solve, but I see only a few scenarios in the 'near' future: Either, like with A LOT of populations: population rises exponentially like mad, then drops EXTREMELY fast to a baseline level, where it will stay more or less. Or we change *something* about our lifestyle, and the population will drop slowly opposed to fast. Or, we find new recources to plunder and our population will keep growing for another while ending in one of the two former scenarios.


As a personal side note: I'm a psychology student at the time, on my way becoming a researcher of psychology. So, I actually am consciously being part of this slavery system, only thing is, that i REALLY like research on human psychology, it's my hobby. IF for some reason i wouldn't be able to do research... I don't know what I would do.. I think I'd either go work at a smartshop/healthfoodstore/open my own.. but I don;t think I would cope for long. Other possibility is that I would go traveling around the world making some money here and there to buy my next trip to whatever place I'd liek to visit next. I would certainly not go into clinical psychology or any of the sorts, because this would make me utterly depressed in the long run (not because of the patients' problems, but because I do not WANT to do that work).

Ok, haha, this turned into a much longer post than the one sentence question I was aiming for at the beginning, sorry for that haha :mrgreen:

****EDIT: just realized I was a little ambiguous with the "I do not like the idea of people working 'so they can live/survive'". I don't like the fact that you're more or less being forced to work.. and if you do not want to work you're being called lazy or a parasite, but at the same time, those 'lazy' people wouldn't mind growing their own food, providing themselves with all the necessary goods (assuming they have collected some survival skills), whereas most so-called 'non-lazy' people would almost go into shock if you would tell them, tomorrow they'd have to grow their own food, hunt their own deer, fish their own fish. I'm all for 'working' to grow your own food etc 'to survive' in that sense.

 

[_Avatar_]

The goverment is the one who judged that i am not able to work mentally according the dsm:v standards

In that case you're rightfully receiving social welfare rather than "refusing to be a slave" and being "on strike". You also can't recommend "everyone to do the same" because a person is either incapable of work (because of falling in a certain DSM:V classification or otherwise) or they are. You suggested you could work but purposefully chose not to, for different noble reasons, and that everyone could do the same, whereas in reality external parties considered you unfit for work.

Who are you to judge if i need welfare or not, if the welfare institution gives me welfare based on everything i have said to you now

Well, you left out the fact that a psychiatrist deemed you unfit for work. Had you mentioned that before, Tiax and I wouldn't have responded the way we did. I was simply talking about those who pretend to be sick (physically or mentally) in order to receive welfare. Unfortunately I have known way too many people who did this (even telling me how to fake a psychosis).

i thought psychonauts were without pre-judgements

Why? Psychonauts are not supernatural beings. We're all judgmental sometimes. Especially when we're not provided with all the data that is required to make an accurate assessment.

 

[Jeniger]

In that case you're rightfully receiving social welfare rather than "refusing to be a slave" and being "on strike". You also can't recommend "everyone to do the same" because a person is either incapable of work (because of falling in a certain DSM:V classification or otherwise) or they are. You suggested you could work but purposefully chose not to, for different noble reasons, and that everyone could do the same, whereas in reality external parties considered you unfit for work.

In reality i don't believe in the dsm:v bible, i don't consider myself mentally limitated. But when this monetary system puts that label on my head, wich makes it even more difficult to get a nice job, in my eyes everyone could do the same.
You could also ask me to elaborate on why i say things, instead of attacking me.

Well, you left out the fact that a psychiatrist deemed you unfit for work. Had you mentioned that before, Tiax and I wouldn't have responded the way we did.

It is not something i believe in, and i will not scream it off the rooftops, u should understand that.

i thought psychonauts were without pre-judgements

Why? Psychonauts are not supernatural beings. We're all judgmental sometimes. Especially when we're not provided with all the data that is required to make an accurate assessment.

I know that not all psychonauts are supernatural human beings,nevertheless its a pity to see some psychonauts don´t learn from their trips not to judge too quickly.

Also i would like to see an answer from tiax and u at the question mescaline asked..... :?:

 

[Brugmansia]

Credit, give it to numbed self-absorbing clueless individuals and the money spontaneously stinks. Endless mastication without being ever fullfilled.

Give it to a mortal with a defined benevolent path in life and the awareness of limitations and it's a glorious medium which also maintains stability in humanism.

 

[ararat]

work in its original sense has been estranged. you don't work for sustaining your life anymore, you work to sustain the market, you work to increase your capital. for what? to increase your capital.
the market isn't a tool anymore, it became a deity you dedicate your life to, to express it radically.
I see why people don't feel bad for getting social welfare. I don't see why I should work for a system that bases itself on steady materialistic and technological advancement and progress, while nobody has an idea where this is supposed to lead us.

 

[IJesusChrist]

I would much rather get an hour and a half of sleep, but I know I won't be able to, so here is my god aweful response:

Thank you, all of you. Every response in here was read and thought about.

I want to explain my exact hate for the monetary system, and sorry I don't hate money, I hate the institutions that have been built upon it and around it. Money started out as a way of showing wealth - i.e. you put some diamonds in the bank, the banker can give you money, which was easier to carry around than a bunch of diamonds (well bad example). So, you could then virtually trade your diamonds. This is great! This is bartering, but made easy! You simply carry around notes of how much stuff you have to offer, alot easier than carrying around a wagon full of melons in hopes of trading them...

But.

Something came about: A fee. The fee was introduced for the space provided by the banker to hold one's items. No big deal, a little payment for the ease of transactions. I don't care, I'm paying for his service.

BUT.

Then something happened. Someone went to the banker to ask for money. He pleaded and pleaded and said he would pay back more than he borrowed! Interest was born.

The system now is run by interest, in fact, it would fully collapse without percentile interest, rather than a flat rate per borrow. This somewhat makes me angry, however, if you are cognisant of the fact that interest is applied, and what interest actually is (just making purchases more expensive) there isn't a problem.

BUT.

And this is where my rage becomes exponential. A banker, who had studied financial business for long enough, realized he could really take advantage of the less fortunate, and put people forever in debt: Compounded interest.

This idea is that making simple interest will allow people to pay off there debts in a specific amount of time given a certain payment.

However, with compounded interest, there is an exponential growth of debt, if payment is not made, or is below or equal to minimum payment. This IS slavery. You are now financially in debt to a bank, and if you have not an income substantial enough to pay off the interest rate per year, your debt grows exponentially.

Now. This enrages me. If you ever watch zeitgeist (or w/e it is) than you will understand also that the amount of debt in the us owed by CITIZENS (not the government) is GREATER than income. (Minus the top 10% wealth). THIS is the blight of money, of banking, of interest.

This has become the land of the fee (as my father is accustomed to saying).

I also realize that without money, paper money, I would be angry about hauling my shit around all day trying to get someone to trade, money is a great invention, its just a very dumb idea that the same people who make the money are also in charge of controlling how it can be used (i.e. interest rates, etc.) .

Lastly I would like to argue this: There is no such thing as 'the economy'. Think of it. When we go into a depression, where does the money go? Is it just... gone? No, what happens is enough people (or the government) pay off their debts - which sends the money to the banks. If people pay off their debt, and decide to not take out loans, the BANKS go into recession, not the people. Now... this is bad if you are an investor, or a business that takes out large loans that aren't paid off quickly. This is not bad for anyone who is relatively in a good position (has a job). ONLY businesses that make money off of money are to suffer from 'recessions' or 'depressions'. Thusly the only effect a bad economy has on anything is BANKS. and if you are closely tied to the bank system, you are not only a fool, but also a blight.

Thank you for reading, if you did.

 

[Jeniger]

Also i would like to see an answer from tiax and u at the question mescaline asked..... :?:

Still waiting......
:roll:

 

[Mescaline]

Lastly I would like to argue this: There is no such thing as 'the economy'. Think of it. When we go into a depression, where does the money go? Is it just... gone? No, what happens is enough people (or the government) pay off their debts - which sends the money to the banks. If people pay off their debt, and decide to not take out loans, the BANKS go into recession, not the people. Now... this is bad if you are an investor, or a business that takes out large loans that aren't paid off quickly. This is not bad for anyone who is relatively in a good position (has a job). ONLY businesses that make money off of money are to suffer from 'recessions' or 'depressions'. Thusly the only effect a bad economy has on anything is BANKS. and if you are closely tied to the bank system, you are not only a fool, but also a blight.

Thanks for clearing this up. I've been wondering for a while what all this economic crisis is about, as I haven't experienced a 'depression' AT ALL, quite the opposite to be honest, but i never really understood the mechanics behind it. Reading flyers, saying "Not one business/company hasn't been affected by the economic crisis, and college books are expensive enough as they are.. SO buy your books at yaddayadda, and save a little money in these hard times"... What a bunch of crock. To me it seems, they just invented a crisis, so people go spend more money, so it disappears from the individuals' wallet, and goes into the company's.

Thank you for reading, if you did.

No problem

 

[magickmumu]

I do not like money. I work to get my money but i do not consider myself to be a slave.
I can not compare my freedom to the freedoms of true slaves.

i agree that the system needs to change. But i have my doubts about going to the government and asking it to take care of us.
when working you earn money. But you also practice a trade. I don't think that there is anything wrong with practicing a trade and supporting yourself with the skills you have learned.

When you have a position within a company or organization you can change things from the inside. You can do something about the things you don't agree with.
as you work you way up in the system you can get more power . You can use this power to try to change things from the inside. Instead of pointing fingers and commenting on it on the outside.

 

[_Avatar_]

Still waiting......

Sorry. I wrote a response last night, but decided not to post it yet. Here it is:

I don't considers these valid answers because (1) new discoveries, if they truly are important (and/or effective), will be made anyway, maybe a bit delayed.. but who cares, I'm not in a hurry anyhow

You may not be in a hurry, but others are. People who are sick would really appreciate it if a cure for their illness was discovered. And the whole planet would benefit if new clean energy sources are discovered. New discoveries in the areas of psychedelic research would also be much appreciated.

(2) distribution of goods, is not a necessaty, everybody could be able to grow they're own food.. all this distribution is a useless luxury;

I can grow one or two types of vegetables on my balcony, but that's about it. Where should I grow cotton or hemp for my clothes? Where should I plant a rubber tree? Do you think that if I dig a hole in my garden I will find gasoline to power my car and heating system?

(3) you don't need money, you can grow your own stuff. Money, imo, is just some tool used to keep people inside this slavery system, whether you're on welfare or not, doesn't matter, we're all slaves, some conscoius of it, most not..

I don't think the term slavery is appropriate. It's certainly not a perfect system, but it isn't on the level of actual slavery either.

But forcing people into commiting to some job, for which they need an education, which they might've not gotten, because they weren't ready for it at the time, that sounds like treating humans as soul-less machines; and that's exactly what is happening.

Why is that "like treating humans as soul-less machines"? Either someone is fit for the job or he/she isn't.

I'd much rather see motivated future/potential [insert proffesion here] be taught by [insert professional] DIRECTLY, not through books, not through film, not through pictures [sure you can use them as an aid]. Just let the professional SHOW his/her students how to do 'X'.

Is that realistic? Apprenticeship might work in a caste system, but not in today's world I'm afraid. Books help save teachers a lot of valuable time.

 

[trick]

This is the same point of view moderen age skinheads have. Lay low, work your way to the top. currupt the system to better reflect your point of view.

but atleast in this case its not killing everone who isnt of arian decent.


dam i think my spelling is getting worse. curse this afgan hash :lol:

 

[magickmumu]

This is the same point of view moderen age skinheads think. Lay low, work your way to the top. currup the system to better reflect your paoint of view.

but atleast in this case its not killing everone who isnt of arian decent.


dam i think my spelling is getting worse. curse this afgan hash :lol:

so the skinheads figured it out. if you want to change things you need the power to do so.
I am not against power and with power comes responsibility.
Take for example someone who uses his skill knowledge and connections to set up a fair trade organization.

 

[buffachino]

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." - Lord Acton

 

[Jeniger]

We (the workers/slaves) are in the majority, they, the few who have the control and in high positions in both economics, banks and politics (in reality really the minority) shit their pants for the day we all wake up and make a stand.

Thats why conscious expanding tools are demonized and criminalised and the tools to keep us 'dumb and hard working' legal in the first place, waiting for psychedelic researchers and their conclusions is a waist of time.

Not everyone is able to work there way up sacrificing their humanity, and as long as the majority is to scared to make a stand and prefers to be asleep, nothing will change. The people have to realise that it is themselves who are enslaved and have to claim their freedom back. When people refuse to join this system for wathever reason, it is their right to create their own reality.! Scarcity is maintained by money and the oil system(free energy would already been energy source number 1, if it wasn't sabotaged by the people who create wars and make profit because of oil.)
People suffer and die from hungryness and we throw away for millions of food each day when it is not sold or over date,(think about the supermarkets and food industry, it has become so ridicioulous that they lock their bin's so the homeless people cannot acces the food) money is maintaining this. So many people homeless or searching for houses, so many empty builing,these are just two examples but i could write pages, fact is that everything is maintained by money, thats why i say its the true parasite.


[youtube]wPbUSxYQe7A[/youtube]
lyrics:
Born to die and you get to sit and watch yer TV set
believe the lies before yer eyes credit cards and apple pies
50 stars to blind yer eyes 13 stripes to hypnotize
free thought is gone you'll never see yer just a pawn
you'll die tomorrow but today yer empty dreams just fade away
evaporate, dissolve to hate while you survive and wait
until a lifeless fate yer stupid lives just piddle on
you slave fer others and then your gone I just can't escape the lying
the moment we are born we're dying it's such an ugly sight

yer dumb self can't appreciate the freedom in my thought
the weak sense of autonomy when i'm tripping in my squat
that empty void was never filled but the dreams of others you helped kill
you'll justify, we'll linger on
but don't ya know that dreams all die the day your born

gone to bed, god is dead
lies and truth are in my head
your history, society, reformity
it isn't me, it's all on you
reality, it's what ya do
it's what ya take in the truth the lies
the freedom dies, the mind it numbs, the spirit breaks
all our rights it kills our future
our reasons why
we're born to die
we're born to die

 

[Mescaline]

You may not be in a hurry, but others are. People who are sick would really appreciate it if a cure for their illness was discovered. And the whole planet would benefit if new clean energy sources are discovered. New discoveries in the areas of psychedelic research would also be much appreciated.

Cures will be found anyway... did you even read what I said? Research will be done ANYWAY, imo, either by accident or on purpose, whether you get paid for it or not. One nice example is the use of psilocybine for treating cluster headaches: major important discovery that would've been made independently of organized research, and FFS this drug isn't officailly used probably BECAUSE the pharmacological industry would take a giant slap in the face if a lot of people could grow their own medicine.. fuckin' hate the monetary system.
For the other two points you made (but also for the medical point), I think you are still missing the bigger picture, I'm trying to point at. Nowadays you need MONEY (here we go again) to do research.. what I am aiming at is doing research, and just getting the necessary tools for FREE, research should absolutely NOT be money based, in ANY way (on a side note, at a workgroup, last week, I have been told research involving fMRI scans are IMMENSELY expensive because, neurologists have a monopoly on those machines. So they can ask whatever they want for an fMRI scan, and as you probably expect they ask thousands for ONE scan; want to become rich? become a neurologist...) So you don't have to be afraid of research halting on any of those points, imo, it just won't be 'work' anymore (according to my own terminology), there would be a 'personal' reason behind it.

I can grow one or two types of vegetables on my balcony, but that's about it. Where should I grow cotton or hemp for my clothes? Where should I plant a rubber tree? Do you think that if I dig a hole in my garden I will find gasoline to power my car and heating system?

You can help eachother you know... It's not like everybody would be totally on his/her own. In general not much would change in the way the world functions.. you just take away the money factor, take away the artifical motivator for working.

I don't think the term slavery is appropriate. It's certainly not a perfect system, but it isn't on the level of actual slavery either.

That's beside the point, I don't like discussing terminology... You know what I'm talking about, that's what's important.

Why is that "like treating humans as soul-less machines"? Either someone is fit for the job or he/she isn't.

That's simply not true. Most people are ready for education/a job, the way the system works now, but not everybody. Everything in this society is arranged this way, most things are focused on 95% of the population, the other 5% being unlucky, deviating from the 'normal' range, deemed not worty, consequently being labled as mentally disordered or something alike. Some people might really have an acutal brain deficiency, but I honestly believe that alot of so called mental disorders, are only disorders for as long as they are viewed within our current society/environment. Changing these conditions might actually make some of those 5% succesful, functioning people.

Is that realistic? Apprenticeship might work in a caste system, but not in today's world I'm afraid. Books help save teachers a lot of valuable time.

The consequences of the current methode are badly educated professionals, who got all their theoretical knowledge from books, acutally not having a single clue of what the real practical thing is like and absolutely NOT being encouraged to think in NEW, original ways, but to just accept what has been written.. the holy bible of scientific knowledge... *sigh*
Yes it's a bit unrealistic.. but as you might've noticed, I also pointed out that I believe the world is drastically overpopulated. And yes, we can remain ignorant and go on with our little future fantasy life, saying it's not overpopulated... but the ugly truth is that recources will eventually run out with a mass population like ours. Even if we find new recources, they will run out as well. The inevitable will happen, a lot of people will die of starvation if you ask me (not because of an actual scarcity of food, but because food will not be distributed effectively, because of lack of energy sources to do so). Though I do not believe we will be around to witness this happening.

Lastly, I'd like to say that everything you say is absolutley TRUE as long as your perspective is based on how society operates right now. I'd like to view what i'm saying outside of this perspective. A bit like communism vs. capitalism (not that I'm an advocate of communism, just as an analogy).

 

[magickmumu]

@ Jeniger
I agree with you, the situation is horrible. But i doubt your solution for these problems.
I don't judge people who are on welfare.
you can be on welfare and make yourself useful on other ways.
however i don't believe that being on welfare and doing nothing is the best solution for change. I think being self sufficient is a better way to go.
We need to educate ourselves and come up with ideas and projects for change.



@ buffachino
Power may corrupt people. but without power there is very little you can do.
I do not advise giving away your power rights and freedoms.
It's easy to always point the finger at the people in powerful position. When you walk away from power and responsibility yourself.

 

[magickmumu]

[youtube]8_anbEJsr6s[/youtube]
[youtube][/youtube]

 

[magickmumu]

[youtube]M_bvT-DGcWw[/youtube]